Tailwheel endorsement before DC-3 type?

So, I did an ATP type rating in a DC-3 many years ago.
At the time, I was flying (teaching) in Army Barons (B-55)
after a couple years teaching in the back seat of the Army Birdog Cessna L-19.
On my first take-off in the -3, the instructor said "turn right to heading xyz".
My fingers wrist and toes made the appropriate movements, and nothing happened!
I was suddenly overcome with the fear that we had left the outside control locks in place.
After some prompting from the instructor, I used biceps and thigh muscles I had never used to turn the airplane.
After the first 4 or 5 flights, my arms and legs were sore as in a physical workout.
By the end of the 25 hour program, my body was used to the control forces.
By then, it was like a big ol' twin engine Cub.
But not at first.

There are big differences in big and little.

I am a light airplane instructor, but I have a taste of the big ones, and am sensitive to the differences.
 
nosehair said:
At the time, I was flying (teaching) in Army Barons (B-55)
after a couple years teaching in the back seat of the Army Birdog Cessna L-19.
On my first take-off in the -3, the instructor said "turn right to heading xyz".
My fingers wrist and toes made the appropriate movements, and nothing happened!
I was suddenly overcome with the fear that we had left the outside control locks in place.
Click to expand...
I can kind of relate. I own a B-55.

You know what the big difference in flight characteristics between a Baron and a DC-3 is, right?

It's Adverse Yaw.

There is virtually no adverse yaw in a Baron, but there is a ton of it in the DC-3.

Case in point, when I fly with my 7 year old daughter, I can let her take the yoke and she makes beautiful coordinated turns (her feet don't even reach the rudder pedals).

My first flight in the DC-3 was similar to yours. I could turn the yoke 90 degrees and NOTHING happened. The airplane plodded along fat, dumb and happy without deliberate application of the rudder.

But I disagree that you need a lot of muscle to do it. You just need to apply deliberate pressure on the appropriate rudder pedal, but that is true if almost any airplane built in the 30s and 40s.

Yes, your muscles gave felt like they got a good workout after flying it, but trust me....that workout came on the ground, not in flight.
 
I just stepped on the rudder and put in some aileron and it slowly rolled one way. Stepped on the other rudder and it slowly rolled the other. Flying it to "Don't spill their drinks" type air carrier moments wasn't a muscular event, just a patient one. :dunno: That's the big difference between big and small is the paths your inertia takes you and the time and space changes require.
 
Last edited:
Question for the OP : what was the last thing you flew and how long ago was that ?
Next question: Have you ever backed a trailer up at 80 mph ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
Question for the OP : what was the last thing you flew and how long ago was that ?
Next question: Have you ever backed a trailer up at 80 mph ?
Click to expand...

A320. Two days ago. No, and that's the big question here. I have attempted to back a uhaul trailer at 1 mph and failed miserarably
 
Kritchlow said:
A320. Two days ago. No, and that's the big question here. I have attempted to back a uhaul trailer at 1 mph and failed miserarably
Click to expand...

Then stay ahead of the airplane, and use the rudder as your primary directional control. That is the difference you will notice most coming out of an A-320 as you already understand the size and mass issues.
 
Fearless Tower said:
A DC-3 will typically run between $1500-$2000/hr.
Click to expand...
That makes me grateful to have had the opportunity years ago to get four hours of signed-off DC-3 co-pilot training. The captain (a Flight Safety chief instructor) needed a co-pilot on the spur of the moment to ferry a DC-3 from LGB to MFR, and I was in the right place at the right time. All it cost me was the price of an airline ticket back to LGB.
 
Henning said:
I just stepped on the rudder and put in some aileron and it slowly rolled one way. Stepped on the other rudder and it slowly rolled the other.
Click to expand...

Yes. You don't really need to 'lead' with the rudder, but rudder has to be a primary thought.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yes. You don't really need to 'lead' with the rudder, but rudder has to be a primary thought.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's not really "leading" so much as "start the motion with". If you start the motion with the rudder you stay ahead of adverse yaw, and you can balance easily with the aileron. If you start the motion with the aileron, you now have to overcome the induced adverse yaw before you do anything. It's really just a subtle thing, like pitching a curve instead of a slider, not some great separation of moments. It's just creating a small inertial moment first that immediately is offset and balanced by induced drag. This is also how you prevent 'tail wagging'. Tail wagging and the ensuing vomit in the back seat comes from always reacting to adverse yaw rather than proactively preventing it with the rudder pedals.

If you step before you twist, the plane ride is a hell of a lot smoother and the plane handles a whole lot better IMO.
 
You know what would be cool is if we could talk one of these operators into running a POA Type Rating Class and maybe get a group rate.... I'd be in.
 
Not having any experience with twin beech, or gooney bird, how do they compare on the ground with T-50?
 
bluerooster said:
Not having any experience with twin beech, or gooney bird, how do they compare on the ground with T-50?
Click to expand...

First challenge is finding someone who has flown a Bobcat. Very few of those left.

I've flown the Gooney and talked to several experienced Beech 18 folks, but never met anyone with T-50 time.

I would love to fly one though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top