T&G more risky than Stop and Go?

SkyHog said:
Many loss of control accidents happing during landing with a crosswind as well. Ground loops come to mind. Should CFIs only allow landings with a direct headwind?
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No, but smart CFIs restrict both total and xwinds for students.
 
If you can't handle a touch and to, you probably shouldn't have been signed off to solo.

Also pre solo patten work doing t&gs, you can do about one landing per .1 on the Hobbs.
 
Velocity173 said:
Just don't leave your gear hanging down in the pattern. You should always retract it after each approach. :eek:
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Oh I dunno 'bout that V. Every time we had a Navy plane arrive and stay in the pattern they left their gear down. :D
 
James331 said:
If you can't handle a touch and to, you probably shouldn't have been signed off to solo.

Also pre solo patten work doing t&gs, you can do about one landing per .1 on the Hobbs.
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+1. I wouldn't have signed my students off if they couldn't handle touch and go's
 
wrbix said:
So the overall consensus here is:
- Touch and Go is (marginally) more challenging and less safe, and
- we still allow/encourage our students and ourselves to do them.

OK - I agree we all need to be comfortable with Go Arounds, but if out just doing some TOLs, why add risk for the sake of a little time and a little 100LL?
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That is exactly the reason I want students to do touch and goes, I want them to make as many mistakes as possible while I am with them and see if they know how to handle them.

I once watched another instructor get out the plane and send his student off for his 1st solo. When the instructor came into the building his comment was "He can't do a good landing, but he is better at saving or aborting a bad one than I am"

The most scary student to solo is the one that has never made a bad landing or had to go around, because I don't know what they will do when they make a bad landing or if they will decide to go around.

I can see requiring students to do full stops for the 1st few solo is some location/situations. I typically just tell them do what is most safe, they are the pilot in command.

Brian
 
I specifically eliminated a couple flight schools that only allowed taxi backs. I think the primary motivation for them was $$. They all charged by hobbs time, not tach so they collect full price while students slowly taxi back. One of the worst schools is also known for encouraging huge patterns and dragging it in on a 3 mile final every lap. I could do 3 or 4 laps of the pattern in the time it took them to do 1.
 
SethV said:
I specifically eliminated a couple flight schools that only allowed taxi backs. I think the primary motivation for them was $$. They all charged by hobbs time, not tach so they collect full price while students slowly taxi back. One of the worst schools is also known for encouraging huge patterns and dragging it in on a 3 mile final every lap. I could do 3 or 4 laps of the pattern in the time it took them to do 1.
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How long was the runway?


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brcase said:
That is exactly the reason I want students to do touch and goes, I want them to make as many mistakes as possible while I am with them and see if they know how to handle them.

I once watched another instructor get out the plane and send his student off for his 1st solo. When the instructor came into the building his comment was "He can't do a good landing, but he is better at saving or aborting a bad one than I am"

The most scary student to solo is the one that has never made a bad landing or had to go around, because I don't know what they will do when they make a bad landing or if they will decide to go around.

I can see requiring students to do full stops for the 1st few solo is some location/situations. I typically just tell them do what is most safe, they are the pilot in command.

Brian
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Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I completely agree with you. I can understand requiring a student to do full stop taxi backs on a short runway, but requiring that on a 8000'-9000' runway seems pretty silly. I can't imagine if I went through my entire PPL training and never did a touch and go lol.
 
brcase said:
That is exactly the reason I want students to do touch and goes, I want them to make as many mistakes as possible while I am with them and see if they know how to handle them.

I once watched another instructor get out the plane and send his student off for his 1st solo. When the instructor came into the building his comment was "He can't do a good landing, but he is better at saving or aborting a bad one than I am"

The most scary student to solo is the one that has never made a bad landing or had to go around, because I don't know what they will do when they make a bad landing or if they will decide to go around.

I can see requiring students to do full stops for the 1st few solo is some location/situations. I typically just tell them do what is most safe, they are the pilot in command.

Brian
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I believe its a similar mentality my CFI have too. I solo-ed after I could identify and recover before he reacted to take the yoke on a bad landing. don't remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect off... all your landings are safe, but more importantly you can now identify and react when things go south...
 
SkyHog said:
In primary training the most difficult thing to learn is how to land properly. Touch and goes allow many more practice landings in a shorter amount of time, maximizing the value of a training flight.

Ultimately, in a Cessna 172, what does the clean up look like? Flip the flaps up and apply full power. It's not rocket science.
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The goal is learning, not getting in the most landings per hour. Your method works, but mine works better because the emphasis is on understanding what was right or wrong about the just-completed landing and applying that knowledge to the next time around.

Bob
 
brcase said:
I once watched another instructor get out the plane and send his student off for his 1st solo. When the instructor came into the building his comment was "He can't do a good landing, but he is better at saving or aborting a bad one than I am"
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ROFL!
 
Yours works better? That's a hell of a claim to make. Seems the way a lot of CFIs do it w/ T&Gs after ensuring proper training works just as well. I am not saying your method doesn't work but it can done this way also. But 'your way' is a better method? Nah.
 
I'm not a CFI so I obviously know nothing, but if I were, there is no way in hell I'd solo someone who couldn't do a T&G safely. Isn't that what flight training is all about, multitasking? GUMPS, radio, flaps, turn on VASI, 3 in the green, adjust your pattern, etc. Just about then is when the instructor covers an instrument and says "Whoops, looks like that broke on final.". Most training planes take a flap setting and they're ready for take off. Don't you adjust your flaps when you stop too? I suppose you don't let them talk on the radio until they stop?
 
SkyHog said:
Ultimately, in a Cessna 172, what does the clean up look like? Flip the flaps up and apply full power. It's not rocket science.
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It's really not rocket science, but students are human and make irrational mistakes, many of which are triggered by their emotional state during their first few solos.

FAA Aviation Instructors' Handbook:
Flight instructors have the responsibility to provide guidance and restraint with respect to the solo operations of their students. This is by far the most important flight instructor responsibility.
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SkyHog said:
Yes. and invariably the answer is some variation on "I don't feel comfortable with it because my CFI told me it was a bad practice."

I maintain very little tolerance for CFIs that don't do their own research before regurgitating bad info. If I ever get my CFI I will never say something unless I can prove to be true with reference. The great thing about aviation is that EVERYTHING has a factual basis if you're not too lazy to look it up yourself
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I guess the Cessna advising to avoid slips with full flaps isn't factual enough.
 
mscard88 said:
Yours works better? That's a hell of a claim to make. Seems the way a lot of CFIs do it w/ T&Gs after ensuring proper training works just as well. I am not saying your method doesn't work but it can done this way also. But 'your way' is a better method? Nah.
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You are right...I overstated my case.

Bob
 
Clip4 said:
I guess the Cessna advising to avoid slips with full flaps isn't factual enough.
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You might want to check on which specific aircraft have that limitation and why.

But you just gave a great example of not doing the homework on that one.
 
bobmrg said:
You are right...I overstated my case.

Bob
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Thank you Bob. Again I am not saying your method is wrong or even better than one consisting of T&Gs. I see the merit of your method and understand why you prefer it. I've used it myself in addition to T&Gs, but probably would guess 15-20% of the time.
 
Today on my second solo, before CFI got out he pointed out an abort point on the 3700 19th runway, if i was not all cleaned up by then, his instruction was to do a taxi back. That makes a lot of sense. I guess technically it out be stop, back taxi and go, but just a stop and go won't cut it. I would rather have the momentum as I clean up and when I am putting in the full throttle, I am already at 40kts, so the momentum helps and I will have less ground roll

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WannFly said:
Today on my second solo, before CFI got out he pointed out an abort point on the 3700 19th runway, if i was not all cleaned up by then, his instruction was to do a taxi back. That makes a lot of sense. I guess technically it out be stop, back taxi and go, but just a stop and go won't cut it. I would rather have the momentum as I clean up and when I am putting in the full throttle, I am already at 40kts, so the momentum helps and I will have less ground roll

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I was always coached by my CFI to do a pre take-off emergency checklist, "if I'm not at xx kts by the yyy mark on the rwy, abort. If the engine quits below 500 ft, land straight ahead, between 500 and 1000 look on either side of center. 1000 and above turn around. Wind is from the xxx, so turn to the yyy."

I get a little lazy with that, though. Then I flew with a former airline Captain, and he did the same thing, so there is something to it. One drawback with a T&G is that might not give you enough time to get your head completely in the game to that level.
 
denverpilot said:
You might want to check on which specific aircraft have that limitation and why.

But you just gave a great example of not doing the homework on that one.
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Actually not. If the flight manual does not recommend the procedure, why are you teaching it.
 
Clip4 said:
Can you recite the spin characteristics for each model 172, they are published.
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Nope. But I wouldn't state that because a specific model has one characteristic that all models share it without having some sort of evidence or factual backup.

And that's the point. The guidance you refer to does not apply to all Cessnas or even all 172s
 
Late to the thread and not a CFI, but I prefer to do Stop and Go's because Touch and Go's rarely get me slow enough to the really need right rudder the way I do when rolling from the complete stop.
 
I never gave T&G's a second thought until I got into a complex aircraft. Mine has incredible pitch up motion if I firewall the throttle in the landing configuration, might be more than I can handle alone. I think of T&Gs as a time saving measure for flight training, don't know that it really has any other place in GA.
 
steingar said:
I never gave T&G's a second thought until I got into a complex aircraft. Mine has incredible pitch up motion if I firewall the throttle in the landing configuration, might be more than I can handle alone.
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If I do a touch and go in the J, it's more of a land, roll, and go. During the roll phase I'm getting the cowl flaps open, and the flaps and trim to takeoff position. Then I'll throttle up and go. Like Micheal says, to throttle up without doing that will require some serious Popeye arms to keep the nose down.
 
Bill Jennings said:
If I do a touch and go in the J, it's more of a land, roll, and go. During the roll phase I'm getting the cowl flaps open, and the flaps and trim to takeoff position. Then I'll throttle up and go. Like Micheal says, to throttle up without doing that will require some serious Popeye arms to keep the nose down.
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The risk with a T&G with one of the two airplanes I fly regularly is that the only elevator trim indication is on the floor. So not great to be watching the floor as I retrim, while rolling along at 50kts.


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gsengle said:
The risk with a T&G with one of the two airplanes I fly regularly is that the only elevator trim indication is on the floor. So not great to be watching the floor as I retrim, while rolling along at 50kts.
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The J's trim indicator is at the bottom of the center stack near the floor, so yes, my eyes will have to be moving between looking out front and watching the indicator. Not ideal. I only do these on very long runways, and really they have questionable value anyway. I only like it because it saves a taxi back.
 
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gsengle said:
The risk with a T&G with one of the two airplanes I fly regularly is that the only elevator trim indication is on the floor. So not great to be watching the floor as I retrim, while rolling along at 50kts.


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IF it's your own plane, or one a pilot rents often, you develop a feel (muscle memory) for how many turns, if you will, of the trim wheel to get very close to takeoff trim setting for instance. Same with steep turns is another example.A quick glance to confirm you're close, on it exactly, and/or adjust it for TO and you should be good. I am not saying to do this however. Do what you feel is safe and comfortable with.
 
mscard88 said:
IF it's your own plane, or one a pilot rents often, you develop a feel (muscle memory) for how many turns, if you will, of the trim wheel to get very close to takeoff trim setting for instance. Same with steep turns is another example.A quick glance to confirm you're close, on it exactly, and/or adjust it for TO and you should be good. I am not saying to do this however. Do what you feel is safe and comfortable with.
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In my Mooney, it's electric trim and a lot of trim change needed. I wouldn't trust my counting one one thousand with the electric, and if I were spinning the wheel by hand I'd either lose count or reach the wrong end of the runway before getting properly trimmed. Go arounds require a lot of muscle for this reason.


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That's fine gengle, whatever you're comfortable with. Myself either electric or using the trim wheel manually I can get close if not right on it. Not boasting either, just my experience.
 
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