Switching to ground.

Kansas Flyer

Kansas Flyer

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Apr 30, 2018
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Wichita
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Display name:
James
Last winter I flew down to Stillwater (KSWO) on a nice Saturday with a friend to watch a basketball game. I started listening to the tower at about 15 out and it was BUSY with what seemed to be IFR students, local traffic, and a few other folks flying down for the game. I contacted the tower at 10 out and was told to report midfield on the right downwind for 35 and once I got there was cleared to land. I made an uneventful landing and turned off at the first taxiway where I sat for at least 30 seconds (it felt like a lot longer) waiting for the tower to have me switch to ground. I think the poor guy barely took a breath in those 30 seconds as he was juggling quite a bit. He finally told me to switch to ground and after that everything went smoothly.

My question is this. In a situation where the tower is slammed should I just go ahead and switch to ground on my own or am I expected to wait for the tower to tell me what to do?
 
Many (most? All?) Towered airports have that yellow sign off the intersection taxiway that says "Ground Control xxx.xx" on it. That's the point where you are supposed to switch, so may as well switch then. Another reason to set ground as the secondary in your second radio, after ATIS, cause you can make the call and still monitor tower.
 
Glad to learn this.
 
I rarely switch to ground here. A lot of the times the same person is running more than position, if not all of them
 
N1120A said:
Many (most? All?) Towered airports have that yellow sign off the intersection taxiway that says "Ground Control xxx.xx" on it. That's the point where you are supposed to switch, so may as well switch then. Another reason to set ground as the secondary in your second radio, after ATIS, cause you can make the call and still monitor tower.
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Perhaps I missed it but i've never seen any sign like that at any of the towered airports i've been to. Of course I can also count those with just one hand.

One consideration for me was that the Cherokee I was flying does not have the capability to monitor two freqs at once so I didn't want to leave the tower freq in case he was also running ground although it turned out he wasn't.

The vast majority of my short flying career has been at non towered fields and i'm far more comfortable in that environment even though my few trips to class C & D have gone pretty well.
 
If one controller is running both positions they’ll almost always have both frequencies selected.

Just switch once you’re clear.
 
P.S. If they want one frequency it’ll be on the ATIS.

“All services on Tower frequency 118.XX.”
 
Kansas Flyer said:
Perhaps I missed it but i've never seen any sign like that at any of the towered airports i've been to. Of course I can also count those with just one hand.

One consideration for me was that the Cherokee I was flying does not have the capability to monitor two freqs at once so I didn't want to leave the tower freq in case he was also running ground although it turned out he wasn't.

The vast majority of my short flying career has been at non towered fields and i'm far more comfortable in that environment even though my few trips to class C & D have gone pretty well.
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I remember seeing that sign at KPTK but it's certainly not there at all of them. Offhand I can't recall whether there is one at KASH. Hmm.
 
I have ground frequency set up but most class D towers advise “remain my frequency” or “stay with me” either way works.

I can’t remember ever seeing a sign with the ground frequency on it.
 
The proper procedure is to switch to ground when the tower advises you to change freq. “123AB Ground point niner” takes less than 2 seconds.
 
Absent instructions from tower, about the only time one might hesitate to switch to ground after crossing the hold short line is if another runway has to be crossed. In some places, usually parallel runways, tower will handle the runway crossing and in other places ground will handle it. It rarely hurts to ask about local procedure.

As always, be certain to have movement instructions prior to moving beyond the hold short area. As a controller has been known to say: at the big airport you’ll get a pilot deviation for that...
 
Kansas Flyer said:
Perhaps I missed it but i've never seen any sign like that at any of the towered airports i've been to. Of course I can also count those with just one hand.

One consideration for me was that the Cherokee I was flying does not have the capability to monitor two freqs at once so I didn't want to leave the tower freq in case he was also running ground although it turned out he wasn't.

The vast majority of my short flying career has been at non towered fields and i'm far more comfortable in that environment even though my few trips to class C & D have gone pretty well.
Click to expand...

I'd be wary of flying an aircraft with just one radio, for many reasons - ATIS being a huge one. I'm also lucky to have done my training and my flying in very busy airspace that has multiple Bravos and Charlies and lots of Deltas under them.
 
Once you have crossed the hold line you have departed the local controller's area of authority and have entered that of the ground controller. Switch without prompting.

Bob
 
N1120A said:
I'd be wary of flying an aircraft with just one radio, for many reasons - ATIS being a huge one. I'm also lucky to have done my training and my flying in very busy airspace that has multiple Bravos and Charlies and lots of Deltas under them.
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I actually had two radios so having all of the relevant freqs ready when I needed them wasn't a problem. The Cherokee I was flying doesn't have an audio panel so I could only monitor one at a time though.

Interestingly enough Stillwater doesn't have an ATIS, which is the 1st time i've seen that at a towered field. Is that fairly common at Class Ds?
 
N1120A said:
Many (most? All?) Towered airports have that yellow sign off the intersection taxiway that says "Ground Control xxx.xx" on it. That's the point where you are supposed to switch, so may as well switch then. Another reason to set ground as the secondary in your second radio, after ATIS, cause you can make the call and still monitor tower.
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Can't say I've ever found a field with such a sign.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I’ve been to a lot of airports where one guy is working all the freqs without hearing that.
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It’s up to them. I hear it at home all the time, but we have a lot of training going on, so they’re probably hyper about getting it on the ATIS so the students aren’t confused.

Especially since normal ops is on the ATIS to NOT contact Tower for departure but to have Ground sequence everyone to the runway and then they give the “Monitor Tower” when you’re all in your duckling line and ready to leave post-runup in one of the official run-up areas that you need a taxi clearance to get back out of.

Then night falls and they combine the jobs and put that on the ATIS. :)

If they’re truly patched into all of them, it kinda doesn’t matter anyway. They’ll hear ya. :) And they’ll usually just give the taxi clearance as you clear off when they’re working it all with one controller (if they know where you want to go) or they’ll ask, unless they’re super busy.

The funny one for us is the ramp is uncontrolled and if you exit 17L/35R at APA at Alpha-8 they’ll just preemptively fire off a “cross alpha at alpha 8, taxi to parking” to our airplane because they know where we park.

Which works great until I want to go to the self-serve. Hahaha. “Ummmm... can we taxi via alpha to self-serve?” ;)

But as @Clark1961 says, if you’re over on the parallel then they want you to stick with Tower for taxi until you’re across the big runway.

It’s an odd place with odd procedures, but it works for the number of operations...
 
I have heard “contact tower for taxi” before, but more often than not, I’ve called ground, and then on the way out realized it’s the same guy working tower.
 
bobmrg said:
Once you have crossed the hold line you have departed the local controller's area of authority and have entered that of the ground controller. Switch without prompting.

Bob
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Careful, not necessarily true at every airport.
Especially with parallel runways (example: KSAT) where the tower controller will cross you once you land.
 
BigBadLou said:
Careful, not necessarily true at every airport.
Especially with parallel runways (example: KSAT) where the tower controller will cross you once you land.
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Right on target...Boeing Field has parallel runways, and the linking taxiway belongs to the local controller. I should have said "Once you have crossed the hold line and are on the ramp...." but even that has instances of inconsistency: are you on the ramp, or on a crossing taxiway? Then we get into movement areas vs non-movement areas................once you cross the double yellow line into a non-movement area you don't gotta say nothin' to nobody (not that that is a good idea).

Bob
 
Y'all are going to make me look it up but I distinctly remember this phrase in several flight training publications:

"Do not contact ground control until the tower tell you to do so." or "Contact ground when the tower tells you to do so."

4-3-20. EXITING THE RUNWAY AFTER LANDING

  • The following procedures should be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.

  • a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.

  • b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. In the absence of ATC instructions the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway, runway, or ramp area. This does not authorize an aircraft to cross a subsequent taxiway/runway/ramp after clearing the landing runway.

  • NOTE-
    The tower will issue the pilot with instructions which will normally permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or ramp area when required to taxi clear of the runway.

  • c. Stop the aircraft after clearing the runway if instructions have not been received from ATC.

  • d. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Y'all are going to make me look it up but I distinctly remember this phrase in several flight training publications:

"Do not contact ground control until the tower tell you to do so." or "Contact ground when the tower tells you to do so."

4-3-20. EXITING THE RUNWAY AFTER LANDING

  • The following procedures should be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.

  • a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.

  • b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. In the absence of ATC instructions the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway, runway, or ramp area. This does not authorize an aircraft to cross a subsequent taxiway/runway/ramp after clearing the landing runway.

  • NOTE-
    The tower will issue the pilot with instructions which will normally permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or ramp area when required to taxi clear of the runway.

  • c. Stop the aircraft after clearing the runway if instructions have not been received from ATC.

  • d. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.
Click to expand...

And the instructor side of me agrees and understands and knows why... and has to teach it...

But the reality is, when local is handling ten or more aircraft in the pattern behind my tail, and ground is handling two, I’m switching and getting out of local’s hair if I’m not out between the parallels at home.

Away from home, okay. Depends on what I know about the place.

They’ve got enough to deal with around here without having to say “contact Ground point Eight”.

And Ground can just reach over and steal my flight strip if they’re using paper. (You can hear them clacking them around in their racks at my home field. The mics pick that up really well.)

“Cessna 79 Mike, [click, click, CLACK... as they toss the thing in the dump bucket or wherever they toss them...] Cross Alpha to parking.” LOL.

Maybe it’s electronic and they’re just hammering on the keyboards, like I do on mine. Dunno.

I really should go up for a visit and see.

MOST of the time we’ll get the “contact Ground Point Eight” along with the runway exit instructions. That’s the cleanest way to have it all work “properly”, but sometimes we don’t, especially when they’re busier than a one legged man in an azz kicking contest.

Definitely not going to sit there for multiple minutes just past the hold line on the ground side waiting for Tower to dump me when they’re that busy.

Just going to do my part to “maintain the expeditious flow of traffic” and GTFO of the intersection the next airplane exiting behind me needs, by getting a clearance and scooting to the hangar.
 
denverpilot said:
But the reality is, when local is handling ten or more aircraft in the pattern behind my tail, and ground is handling two, I’m switching and getting out of local’s hair if I’m not out between the parallels at home.

...

MOST of the time we’ll get the “contact Ground Point Eight” along with the runway exit instructions. That’s the cleanest way to have it all work “properly”, but sometimes we don’t, especially when they’re busier than a one legged man in an azz kicking contest.
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I wonder if there's anything stopping them from saying "anyone on downwind, base or final: ground point eight when off."
 
asicer said:
I wonder if there's anything stopping them from saying "anyone on downwind, base or final: ground point eight when off."
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LOL. That’s a question for @Timbeck2. He trains the newbie controllers to do all that fancy controller stuff, after all. :)

If it meant I didn’t have to wait for our local controller to get back to me on insane days at my home airport, I’d even accept an OSH style, “Immediate turn off into the grass, follow the flagmen... Welcome to Centennial!” LOL LOL LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
P.S. If they want one frequency it’ll be on the ATIS.

“All services on Tower frequency 118.XX.”
Click to expand...
As Dave also said, I've been to a lot of airports across the east 2/3 of the country where the same guy/gal runs both and have never heard anything on ATIS. Might be a local thing out in your area.
 
Clark1961 said:
Absent instructions from tower, about the only time one might hesitate to switch to ground after crossing the hold short line is if another runway has to be crossed. In some places, usually parallel runways, tower will handle the runway crossing and in other places ground will handle it. It rarely hurts to ask about local procedure.

As always, be certain to have movement instructions prior to moving beyond the hold short area. As a controller has been known to say: at the big airport you’ll get a pilot deviation for that...
Click to expand...

At Deer Valley(DVT) I got this: landed 7L, Tower says contact Ground off the runway. I contact Ground and tell em where I am and where I’m going which was off 7L at B9 and going to [whatever the name of that place was, it was on the other side of 7R.] Ground says taxi via B9, hold sort of 7R, monitor Tower 118.4 then contact me again on the other side. So I sit there for a bit listening to the 7R Tower dude wheelin and dealin and then he tells me to “cross runway 7R.” Nothing else. I cross, change back to Ground who sends me home to parking. They have a pretty well oiled operation there.
 
asicer said:
I wonder if there's anything stopping them from saying "anyone on downwind, base or final: ground point eight when off."
Click to expand...
Or as part of your clearance to land "Cherokee 96W cleared to land runway 35 contact ground .9 when clear".
 
asicer said:
I wonder if there's anything stopping them from saying "anyone on downwind, base or final: ground point eight when off."
Click to expand...

Nothing better in the controller handbook, so I guess so. Never did it myself though. Or had it occur to me when flying.
 
denverpilot said:
It’s up to them. I hear it at home all the time, but we have a lot of training going on, so they’re probably hyper about getting it on the ATIS so the students aren’t confused.

Especially since normal ops is on the ATIS to NOT contact Tower for departure but to have Ground sequence everyone to the runway and then they give the “Monitor Tower” when you’re all in your duckling line and ready to leave post-runup in one of the official run-up areas that you need a taxi clearance to get back out of.

Then night falls and they combine the jobs and put that on the ATIS. :)

If they’re truly patched into all of them, it kinda doesn’t matter anyway. They’ll hear ya. :) And they’ll usually just give the taxi clearance as you clear off when they’re working it all with one controller (if they know where you want to go) or they’ll ask, unless they’re super busy.

The funny one for us is the ramp is uncontrolled and if you exit 17L/35R at APA at Alpha-8 they’ll just preemptively fire off a “cross alpha at alpha 8, taxi to parking” to our airplane because they know where we park.

Which works great until I want to go to the self-serve. Hahaha. “Ummmm... can we taxi via alpha to self-serve?” ;)

But as @Clark1961 says, if you’re over on the parallel then they want you to stick with Tower for taxi until you’re across the big runway.

It’s an odd place with odd procedures, but it works for the number of operations...
Click to expand...

It is a bit odd, but works @ APA. Having done my flight training there, I sometimes get a bit confused at other towered airports that have more “normal” procedures. I once sat for over 5 minutes at the hold short line, waiting to take off, waiting for ground to tell me to “monitor tower.” Finally just switched to tower freq and was promptly told “cleared for take off rnwy xx.” I was the only airplane waiting, so I didn’t hold anyone up, but I learned that APA is a little weird in some ways.
 
Tantalum said:
I always used just switch over to ground when clear of the runway.. UNLESS tower said "remain my frequency" in which case I'll stick with them
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How would you know if you switched, though?
 
The relevant AIM language has been posted. That is the way the system is designed to work.

In unusual circumstances, a local controller may be very busy and forget to give further instructions. If he's that busy, you'll soon be in his way and he'll either move you or send you to the next appropriate frequency.

If the controller isn't busy then tell him where you want to go on the airport, i.e. "[callsign], taxi to [parking location]". He'll either give you taxi instructions or send you to the next appropriate frequency.

This isn't rocket science and there's no need to re-invent the (AIM)/wheel.
 
mryan75 said:
How would you know if you switched, though?
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I make the switch after taxing off the runway and doing my post landing checklist. If they haven't talked to me or told me to switch at that point that I just go to ground
 
Kansas Flyer said:
Interestingly enough Stillwater doesn't have an ATIS, which is the 1st time i've seen that at a towered field. Is that fairly common at Class Ds?
Click to expand...

Stillwater is odd for another reason. They have the ASOS, but unlike many that broadcast minute-to-minute numbers, it only broadcasts hourly numbers when the tower is open. Tower has "to the minute" numbers they'll provide you, though. Even the tower controllers don't know why that is.

As far as other Class D's, not so sure it's as common.
 
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