Switch from ground to tower

[PaulS]

Question. Seems simple, but I am confused. When are you supposed to contact tower after ground gives you taxi instructions. Usually, I taxi with the ground frequency tuned in until I reach the hold short line. once there, I switch to the tower (unprompted). This is what I see happen all the times. However, the books I'm reading say I should contact the tower once instructed by the ground to do so. HELP!

You do it the way I am trained. I fly deltas in the North east, and most of them you taxi and do your runup. When done with runup, I switch to tower, taxi to the runway, and contact the tower when I'm ready to go. When on an instrument plan, I will tell them I need a runup, usually they will ask me to contact them (ground) when ready so they can work on the my release. For a charlie, I've seen it done different ways, generally you call clearance and get a squawk code. Pretty much the same for a Bravo.

Every once in a while, in a different area of the country, you do it differently. Most of the time it's not published and you just deal with it. Most controllers are understanding some are not. Who cares? Don't worry about it, get what you need.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Every once in a while, in a different area of the country, you do it differently. Most of the time it's not published and you just deal with it. Most controllers are understanding some are not. Who cares? Don't worry about it, get what you need.

That's really the bottom line. Just listen. If it's different than AIM-usual, they will generally tell you. If not use AIM-usual. and if they don't like it, they'll correct you. This is not brain surgery nor is anyone going to put you in the stocks if you are wrong.

 

[Larry in TN]

This was actually something I had to get used to, during the transition from mil flying to 121. In the mil, at least at fighter bases, you are generally told to switch to tower, but conversely, you auto switch to ground when off the active (without tower prompting you) after landing. At pretty much every major airport I've flown from in the airlines, it is the exact opposite, at least during busy hours. You can always ask, but I'd submit that if you have passed the last taxiway intersection in your journey to the runway, and you are not at the tail end of a long line of traffic, tower is probably a safe bet.

This is addressed in the AIM. The applicable regulations are in 14 CFR 91.126 - 91.131.

Turbine-powered airplanes are assumed to be ready when they reach the end of the runway as they (usually) don't need a runup. Piston-powered airplanes are assumed to need a runup. If you need something different from what would normally be expected, let ATC know. Unless otherwise specified, turbines will typically switch to tower when they are past the point where they may need to be sequenced behind other aircraft arriving at the runway on different taxiways.

The AIM is specific that aircraft exiting a runway, at an airport with an operating control tower, are to remain on the tower frequency until told to switch. This is because the tower controller may have additional instructions for the pilot before he is switched to ground.

A good example is ORD. Land on Rwy 28C at ORD and tower is (99% of the time) going to tell you to make two right turns onto Papa and to hold short of Golf Golf. He will keep you on his frequency until there is no longer the possibility of a conflict with an airplane landing behind you clearing at an earlier taxiway that you haven't yet passed. At that point, he'll have you MONITOR the tower frequency for Rwy 28R, on which aircraft are departing. That controller will have you cross 28R on Golf Golf then switch to the inbound ground frequency. If pilots were switching to ground (there are at least four ground frequencies) on their own, they'd quickly get "lost" and gum up the flow.

Military is different, of course. Ever been to Paya Lebar AB? One runway, one parallel taxiway, and a number of ramps. Still, Base Ops will show you a Powerpoint presentation on the proper taxi-out procedure. "So, I taxi on the parallel taxiway then hold short of the runway hold line? Great. Got it!"

 

[rsleeds]

KRVS (Tulsa), KDWH (Houston) and KAPA (Denver) are three that come to mind as having Ground expect you with them until they switch you over (including "advise when runup complete"). All of those advertise it clearly in ATIS.

 

[write-stuff]

The support is that you are in a non-movement area doing your own thing and wanting to go into a movement area. Exactly the same documentation that requires one to get a taxi clearance from anywhere else.

Which raises the question of why does it vary so much from one airport to the another?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Which raises the question of why does it vary so much from one airport to the another?

I think there are lots of reasons but from the variations I've seen, traffic and airport configuration are the top two. I'm fairly certain the Centennial "special procedure" to contact Ground when runup is complete and have Ground do a hand-off to "monitor Tower" (not call them) is the existence of three runways at a non-radar airport that has over 350,000 annual operations. To compare with something familiar, that's about 150,000 more than PDK and busier than some Bravos. The last thing the Tower needs is people sitting on the ground calling them.

At the opposite end, there's the Class C at Kahului airport (OGG) on Maui where (assuming things haven't changed since I was last visiting) GA doesn't speak to Ground at all. Call CD for departure instructions or IFR clearance and then straight to Tower. Looking at the airport diagram you can almost figure out why.

I try to remember that even the division of a Tower facility into Local, Ground, and CD, and even whether the airport has ATIS or not, is all about division of labor. Ground saying, "stay with me until handed off to Tower" when things are super busy is really no different that Tower saying "stay with me to parking when things are quiet. Heck, I've even been cleared to land and been given taxi instructions by Approach!

 

[Larry in TN]

Which raises the question of why does it vary so much from one airport to the another?

At many busier airports, the ground controller will sequence the departures and, often, line up their "strips" for the tower controller. In many cases, you'll just monitor the tower frequency and he'll call you when he's ready for you.

 

[Hang 4]

I'm about 50/50 at KFIN on going to Ground after landing. Meaning, land and get "Left on Charlie, contact Ground" half the time, and nothing the other half. If nothing, I clear the runway and over the line on Echo and call ground to go further. Nobody has ever said anything either way. Oh and on slow days, I just get taxi instructions from Tower.

At KRYY, where I used to be, they kept you with tower after landing. 1 runway and good visibility from the tower. They kept you on the runway if someone was coming out the taxiway you would be on to get back to the ramp. They wanted you to call for taxi on the North run-up and didn't care on the South side (it was adjacent to the hold short line).

Those are the two I've been based at. Others I've visited have all had their quirks. While the AIM is interesting, it doesn't seem like there is a universal standard across airports.

 

[Larry in TN]

While the AIM is interesting, it doesn't seem like there is a universal standard across airports.

If an airport uses a procedure that is different from the AIM recommendation, it is up to them to tell pilots what to do.

If you clear the runway at a towered airport but haven't received any instructions, a single transmission along the lines of, "[callsign] is clear" or "[callsign] parking Signature" works well.

 

[Feh]

I’ve used to contact ground for the handoff and they all seemed annoyed. So I always switch to tower at the hood short line and it’s been fine and saves time for them.

 

[Velocity173]

A lot of times what might sound like an airfield policy is nothing more than controller technique. While they have orders, letters and local policies, still a lot of technique allowed.

In helicopters you run the gamut. You can be been cleared for take off by ground or tower freq from a taxiway, runway, pad or “…at your own risk..” from non-movement areas. Varies by facility or controller for that matter. Standardization is nice but there’s something to be said for flexibility as well.

 

[dmspilot]

Normal for KAPA. AIM is not regulatory. {4-3-14 Communications}

Yes, I agree that it is normal to have non-normal procedures on the ATIS.

 

[write-stuff]

At many busier airports, the ground controller will sequence the departures and, often, line up their "strips" for the tower controller. In many cases, you'll just monitor the tower frequency and he'll call you when he's ready for you.

He'll call for you... In the runup area? I think you and I are talking about different things.

 

[Larry in TN]

He'll call for you... In the runup area? I think you and I are talking about different things.

If you're still in the runup area, you wouldn't have been sequenced for departure yet.

Turbines don't do runups so they're sequenced in the order that they'll reach the runway, modified to provide spacing over fixes or as needed to meet wheels-up time windows. If ground is sequencing departures, he'll likely tell a piston airplane to report ready, or runup complete, and will fit them into the sequence, and have them monitor tower, at that time.

 

[35 AoA]

A good example is ORD. Land on Rwy 28C at ORD and tower is (99% of the time) going to tell you to make two right turns onto Papa and to hold short of Golf Golf. He will keep you on his frequency until there is no longer the possibility of a conflict with an airplane landing behind you clearing at an earlier taxiway that you haven't yet passed. At that point, he'll have you MONITOR the tower frequency for Rwy 28R, on which aircraft are departing. That controller will have you cross 28R on Golf Golf then switch to the inbound ground frequency. If pilots were switching to ground (there are at least four ground frequencies) on their own, they'd quickly get "lost" and gum up the flow.

Military is different, of course. Ever been to Paya Lebar AB? One runway, one parallel taxiway, and a number of ramps. Still, Base Ops will show you a Powerpoint presentation on the proper taxi-out procedure. "So, I taxi on the parallel taxiway then hold short of the runway hold line? Great. Got it!"

SEA really beat this into my head. I'm sure my CA was super pumped on (my) OE when I auto switched to the middle/east runway tower after clearing 34L I can say I am now one with their flow for the most part......190 on vector base/dogleg, 170 until FAF, stay up west tower until they barf a bunch of initial taxi instructions out and tell you to monitor the other tower freq, etc etc. I think what has surprised me is how little you actually monitor ground. Especially taxiing back in, you might be up ground for 20 seconds before jumping to ramp. And then there are the places like PHX which surprise you and just single freq you all the way to the gate if it is late enough. I think I maybe once had that in SEA, and it was late and heavy snow.

 

[Tantalum]

The AIM also has specific guidance for that. And, it's not your fault if the controllers are expecting something else.

Thanks. 9/10 times I get the "exit Charlie contact ground" or something similar. There is that momentary panic though of not wanting to upset a controller, break AIM guidance, or upset local unwritten rules when the handoff isn't explicitly given! I should check the AIMs guidance on this though!

 

[write-stuff]

If you're still in the runup area, you wouldn't have been sequenced for departure yet.

Turbines don't do runups so they're sequenced in the order that they'll reach the runway, modified to provide spacing over fixes or as needed to meet wheels-up time windows. If ground is sequencing departures, he'll likely tell a piston airplane to report ready, or runup complete, and will fit them into the sequence, and have them monitor tower, at that time.

Agree, Larry. But my comment specifically involved calls to ground (or not) when leaving the runup area (which is a non-movement area). Like I said, you are I are talking about different things.

 

[Larry in TN]

Agree, Larry. But my comment specifically involved calls to ground (or not) when leaving the runup area (which is a non-movement area). Like I said, you are I are talking about different things.

On what are you basing the idea that the runup area is non-movement or that stopping in one changes your taxi instructions?

Movement areas are defined by each airport. At some, the movement area can change throughout the day (EWR). Sometimes they're marked, sometimes they aren't.

What were your taxi instructions? Were they to the runway, or the runup area? Where any instructions given for what to do when the runup was complete? Different airports, different answer. Different answer, different requirements for when the runup is complete.

Follow the recommended procedures in the AIM unless the airport, or your ATC instructions, indicate otherwise.

 

[write-stuff]

If a runup area is marked with a solid line on the inside and a single dashed line on the outside, it's a non-movement area.
In the runup area, bounded by said lines, some airports don't want you to call anyone. They simply expect you to exit the runup area when ready and monitor tower as you taxi to the departure hold short position. Other airports want you to call ground after runup is complete and prior to exiting the runup area.

Check this link, 2-3-6(c)
https://tfmlearning.faa.gov/Publications/atpubs/AIM/Chap2/aim0203.html

 

[Hang 4]

On what are you basing the idea that the runup area is non-movement or that stopping in one changes your taxi instructions?

The lines painted on the surface?
Larry, all due respect, your examples are all big, complex class B's. Go to a bunch of D's with contract towers and I guarantee you'll find a lot of roll your own with no consistency, instructions in the ATIS or anywhere else and different even from different runways and taxi ways. KRYY - South side run-up - just taxi to the hold short, North side they'd prefer you call for taxi after completion of the run-up. Only way I know that is I asked. KFIN - they just put in new run-up "lanes" at one runway. I went to a workshop at DAB with ATC and the satellite airports and found out you're supposed to call for taxi after run-up in the new ones. (but not the old one).

As others have pointed out, it's not that big of deal, just ask. But that AIM is the fallback is a bit of stretch based on my
experience

 

[write-stuff]

What were your taxi instructions? Were they to the runway, or the runup area? Where any instructions given for what to do when the runup was complete?

Ok, hypothetical situation. You're at the main ramp and Ground has cleared you to taxi to the runway. No other instructions. On your way, you optionally decide to pull off into a marked runup area. When you have completed your runup, what do you do?

 

[Larry in TN]

If a runup area is marked with a solid line on the inside and a single dashed line on the outside, it's a non-movement area.

Sure, but it doesn't matter. The AIM doesn't give different procedures for movement vs. non-movement runup areas.

They simply expect you to exit the runup area when ready and monitor tower as you taxi to the departure hold short position. Other airports want you to call ground after runup is complete and prior to exiting the runup area.

Yes, local "procedures" do develop. That doesn't change the regulations or the AIM recommendations. If a facility wants pilots to do something differently than the regs/AIM then they need to use appropriate phraseology or include those instructions on the ATIS. If they don't, they can't hold a pilot responsible for not knowing their unpublished local procedures.

The lines painted on the surface?

Sometimes they are. Often, they are not.

Larry, all due respect, your examples are all big, complex class B's.

Exactly. And the AIM recommendations apply equally to them. That's my point. That's why we have regulations and AIM recommendations that are mirrored by the 7110.65 procedures.

Go to a bunch of D's with contract towers and I guarantee you'll find a lot of roll your own with no consistency, instructions in the ATIS or anywhere else and different even from different runways and taxi ways

I've seen it in many places. That is the problem. The pilots who train at those airports will develop a misunderstanding of how ATC and airport operations work and that won't serve them well when they get out of the training environment and start going to new places.

Ok, hypothetical situation. You're at the main ramp and Ground has cleared you to taxi to the runway. No other instructions. On your way, you optionally decide to pull off into a marked runup area. When you have completed your runup, what do you do?

Depends on what is said, and assuming I'm flying a piston-powered airplane...

If it's, "[Callsign], [facility] ground, Runway 17, taxi via Alpha." I'd look around to see if there's anyone I should be following then I'd get in line and call Tower when I'm #1.

If it's, "[Callsign], [facility] ground, Taxi to the Runway 17 runup area via Alpha." or "[Callsign], [facility] ground, Taxi to the Runway 17 runup area via Alpha, advise runup complete." I'd call ground, when the runup was complete, to taxi to the runway.

In a turbine, I'd taxi to the runway and switch to, and monitor, Tower when there's no room for Ground to put another airplane ahead of me before reaching the runway. I won't call Tower unless told to do so or it looks like he's forgotten about me.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

This is an interesting thread to me. In more than 50 years of flying, I have never had ground control advise me to contact Tower prior to departure or require a call when leaving a runup area.

AIM 4-3-14 is clear to me: "Pilots of departing aircraft should communicate with the control tower on the appropriate ground control/clearance delivery frequency prior to starting engines to receive engine start time, taxi and/or clearance information. Unless otherwise advised by the tower, remain on that frequency during taxiing and runup, then change to local control frequency when ready to request takeoff clearance." (Emphasis added)

It seems there are exceptions, (and yes, I have flown in and out of Centennial, but don't recall anything unusual) but I would certainly expect that information to be on the ATIS.

 

[Wagondriver]

Only time I've been asked to switch to tower freq is when I request departure clearance on ground freq. LOL

I got a little attitude from tower recently. I was waiting for a break in the radio calls, while nearing the delta, for some reason they were doing clearance delivery on tower frequency. I made my call, but the next thing I heard from tower was to an aircraft on the ground, with attitude “say again n12xy, you were stepped on”. By the time that was over, I was now close enough to receive the aircraft on the ground and tower, I was halfway through a right 360 to stay out of the delta.
When tower asked for me to call again, they recognized my tail number and that I was inbound, and the attitude changed. I’m there pretty frequently, they know me by tail number and by sight.
I thought about apologizing for being on the “wrong” frequency, but quickly thought better of it.

 

[Kritchlow]

If one follows the *proper* procedures without using some judgement, and perhaps local knowledge, you will goober up the flow.
Example: crossing a runway at a busy airport and tower tells you to contact ground on the other side. Please don’t wait until you are past the stop bars, then call ground. Once you are committed to crossing the runway there is nothing that can be gained by waiting. You are already on the damn runway. Call ground to keep it flowing.

 

[PaulS]

I got a little attitude from tower recently. I was waiting for a break in the radio calls, while nearing the delta, for some reason they were doing clearance delivery on tower frequency. I made my call, but the next thing I heard from tower was to an aircraft on the ground, with attitude “say again n12xy, you were stepped on”. By the time that was over, I was now close enough to receive the aircraft on the ground and tower, I was halfway through a right 360 to stay out of the delta.
When tower asked for me to call again, they recognized my tail number and that I was inbound, and the attitude changed. I’m there pretty frequently, they know me by tail number and by sight.
I thought about apologizing for being on the “wrong” frequency, but quickly thought better of it.

I doubt any attitude was directed at you. If you hear them read a clearance, they will finish, then the other pilot will answer, usually repeating the clearance. When the other pilot is done, you will hear the controller tell the pilot the readback was correct. That's your cue to pipe up. Interrupting that sequence just slows everything down. But it does happen, so don't worry about it.