SVB: Biggest bank failure since '08

CS kicked me out about a decade ago for being American. I guess it all worked out for the best.

That was because CS had limited US customers, and US Patriot Act requirements for banks are very onerous. I know of multiple banks which made the same policy decision. The final result seems to be a mixed bag.

Tim
 
The market crunch continues. This is likely to not end pretty.
As for SVB, a depositor group has formed with the intent to force bankruptcy so assets can he liquidated.
I predict that the market will drop 30 to 35% shortly after I buy my new truck at full list price. Until then everything will be fine.
 
How certain are you? I need to go poach me some staff… smart people still work there

See! Credit Suisse employees aren't wasting any time, and they already have a white knight bailout! :eek:

(Per Bloomberg)
Screenshot_20230321-081845.png
 
<low whistle>

FDIC all but declared all deposits in the US are guaranteed without limit today.

Probably a paywall:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-could-move-to-protect-deposits-at-other-banks-568a765b

This is what happens when the government and the Fed become the guarantors of American happiness, hardship is no longer allowed to be experienced by anyone. This is the case even when the rules are plastered and placarded in plain English at every bank branch around the country (the FDIC limits).

As much as I don't want this to be the case, I'm betting the fed doesn't just blink, but full on shi*s their pants at the first sign of **an actual** financial slowdown. I can see a case where we have 1 decent sized, poorly run zombie tech company go under and the fed backpedals back to zero interest rate policy in an instant. I hope that's not what happens but based on how they dealt with this comparatively minor banking fiasco I think that's a pretty reasonable base case.
 
I didnt't want to 'like' that ^, but I agree.
 
FDIC all but declared all deposits in the US are guaranteed without limit today.

"could be if" doesn't sound like a guarantee to me. It sounds like the opposite of a guarantee.

I can see a case where we have 1 decent sized, poorly run zombie tech company go under and the fed backpedals back to zero interest rate policy in an instant. I hope that's not what happens but based on how they dealt with this comparatively minor banking fiasco I think that's a pretty reasonable base case.

The Fed cares about banks. Because the Fed is a bank. The Fed isn't a tech company. They don't care if a tech company goes under. Kind of a bizarre comparison.
 
This is what happens when the government and the Fed become the guarantors of American happiness, hardship is no longer allowed to be experienced by anyone. This is the case even when the rules are plastered and placarded in plain English at every bank branch around the country (the FDIC limits).

As much as I don't want this to be the case, I'm betting the fed doesn't just blink, but full on shi*s their pants at the first sign of **an actual** financial slowdown. I can see a case where we have 1 decent sized, poorly run zombie tech company go under and the fed backpedals back to zero interest rate policy in an instant. I hope that's not what happens but based on how they dealt with this comparatively minor banking fiasco I think that's a pretty reasonable base case.

Why do you make that assertion? FOMC is looking to slow the economy. If FDIC implicitly guarantees depositor funds, you stop the runs on the banks. Which can cause premature implosions of banks. However, investors losing confidence in banks, and banks going under, as long as they do not take down a lot of other banks actually helps the FOMC meet their stated goal. When a bank collapses, you lose some ability for lending, losing the ability to borrow money slows the economy.

What am I missing?

Tim
 
Hi.
What am I missing?

Everything?
Where do you think that money come from?
The retards proposing this are not producing anything.
Do you think that if a bank in Orange County CA would have failed they would have done the same? Let me answer that for you, NO. It took an act of Congress to get some of the money for some people above 250K.
You have a bunch of idiots controlling the banks, a bunch of idiot customers that think they a going to make a killing on investments and do not know or care about the rules, and do not know or care about them, and you have a recipe for disaster.
Look up Communism, a few control everything and they just help each other to stay in power, at the expense of the rest of the population.
If the banks want to help each other, fine, but not have the government bail out idiots. All this does it encourages more acts like these and accepts and perpetuates, mediocrity and stupidity.
These managers should be in jail and have all their assets pay for the problem they created.
 
The Fed cares about banks. Because the Fed is a bank. The Fed isn't a tech company. They don't care if a tech company goes under. Kind of a bizarre comparison.

The Fed's mandate is full employment and price stability. Sure they care about banks and have bank oversight, but banks fail all the time and that doesn't influence policy every time they do.

The Fed is not ignorant to the goings-on in the broader, non-bank economy and it's a substantial component of how they set policy. If they're setting policy purely based on bank-runs and bank-failures then it means they did their job wrong. Bigly wrong.

Their interest in the broader economy is why they track about every single hiring/productivity/investment/GDP metric imaginable across all the industries out there. So, if you start to see zombie companies, whether CRE/Tech/financials/etc, collapse because they can't rollover their debt or continue to make higher interest rate debt service payments, that'll be of top interest to the fed. They don't sit back and wash their hands of the situation and say "well, it's not a bank so I don't care".

My concern is that rather than accepting this as the cost of running a healthy economy where unproductive companies perish, it will be tempting for the Fed to reverse course at the first sign of "economic damage" and revert back to easy monetary policy. This would be extremely politically favorable (I mean, who doesn't love high growth + free money?). Given their recklessly accommodative stance since the blow up 15 years ago, one can imagine a scenario where the fed backpedals in a hurry at the first sign of trouble.

I mean, these are the same circus clowns who presided over a 40% increase in the M2 supply over 2 years and told you with a straight face that there was no need to raise rates, reciting the "inflation is transitory" line when trouble started to hit. So I'm quite sure that if they saw some shi**ily run, high name-recognition tech company go under because their outrageous debt load became too expensive, the fed would take notice and work on backpedaling as quickly as humanly possible.

Long monologue. Sorry. I hope this at least **kind of** clarifies why I think the federal reserve will give substantial consideration to leveraged tech companies when they inevitably go under. EDIT: And I call out tech specifically because many (if not most) of them haven't even gone through 1 economic cycle. They're younger companies on average compared to, say, materials/mining co. They've only ever existed during the "grow at all costs" fundraising periods where they were showered with free money in private and public markets. Many of them simply cannot survive in a more normal rate environment.

When a bank collapses, you lose some ability for lending, losing the ability to borrow money slows the economy.
Do you lose that ability for lending? Not really, you're just shifting all that money to another bank (like JPM) who then will need to put that capital to work. They won't just sit on a mountain of cash and not lend it unless *credit* conditions tighten.
 
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@bluesideup

You have so many confused assertions in your diatribe (my assumption of what the post was); that I doubt I will address most, or even very many of them.
First, FDIC does not get money out of thin air, or invent cash in the normal course of business. FDIC gets cash by having all banks pay an assessment. Currently FDIC has roughly 100B USD in reserve. If this is depleted, FDIC can borrow from the Treasury department, and banks have an increased assessment fee to pay the Treasury back. This has happened a few times, normally the Fed spreads out the FDIC repayment over a few years since this would normally happen in a down economy when the banks are already stressed.

Second, communism. No, communism is not at all what you described. Is that what happened in the USSR, to some extent. But that is not communism.

Third, no share holders or bond holders were bailed out. They lost billions of dollars of value. SVB was worth roughly 6B USD when the bank folded, just a couple years ago it had over seven times that value. Not sure why you think customers of the bank should pay the price for the bank management. Final point on SVB, when everything is sold off, I am fairly positive that FDIC will have paid very little to nothing. The assets sold will end up covering the deposits, the share holders and bond holders are the ones getting screwed due to a liquidity crisis, not a capitalization crisis.

Tim
 
The Fed is not ignorant to the goings-on in the broader, non-bank economy and it's a substantial component of how they set policy.

Of course they're not. I didn't say they were. I only thought your assertion that they would do a policy 180 based on "one poorly run tech company" was odd. I also don't know how to counter-argue a critique of what they might do in the future. They could set off a period of hyperinflation or they could oversee the next great depression. I don't know what they're going to do. But I think a major, significant reversal of policy based on one tech company is an unlikely scenario.
 
I mean, these are the same circus clowns who presided over a 40% increase in the M2 supply over 2 years and told you with a straight face that there was no need to raise rates, reciting the "inflation is transitory" line when trouble started to hit. So I'm quite sure that if they saw some shi**ily run, high name-recognition tech company go under because their outrageous debt load became too expensive, the fed would take notice and work on backpedaling as quickly as humanly possible.

Then you must be a trillionaire to see the current situation coming :D
When you look at inflation right now, it is caused by the supply side. Not by the monetary policy. Does monetary policy enable inflation, to some degree. But monetary policy does not cause inflation. If consumers/companies do not spend cash, no matter how cheap it is, then inflation does not occur. In addition, monetary policy can crush an economy which depends on credit; which is the only solution monetary policy has to solve supply side inflation.

Do you lose that ability for lending? Not really, you're just shifting all that money to another bank (like JPM) who then will need to put that capital to work. They won't just sit on a mountain of cash and not lend it unless *credit* conditions tighten.

Actually yes. Most bank failures are small or regional banks. Very rare to see a truly national bank fail due to the tighter regulations they face; and larger national banks tend to have larger diversity of a client base. The reason this differentiation maters is because small and regional banks provide the majority of commercial lending facilities in the USA (I think it was around 60% of commercial loans, but only have 20% of total assets). Even if customer transfer to a new small/regional bank, all loans in process have to start over (this happened to me when the bank I used went under FDIC receivership); this takes multiple months. In my case, it set back our loan process by roughly 8 months. I doubt the industry has improved on this in the last decade. So when a small or regional bank fails, commercial lending is hit fairly hard locally and takes months/years to recover.

Tim
 
Then you must be a trillionaire to see the current situation coming :D
As I have not yet placed an order for my own personal 787 Dreamliner I'll let you judge how much of the insight is from hindsight :).

Actually yes. Most bank failures are small or regional banks. Very rare to see a truly national bank fail due to the tighter regulations they face; and larger national banks tend to have larger diversity of a client base. The reason this differentiation maters is because small and regional banks provide the majority of commercial lending facilities in the USA (I think it was around 60% of commercial loans, but only have 20% of total assets). Even if customer transfer to a new small/regional bank, all loans in process have to start over (this happened to me when the bank I used went under FDIC receivership); this takes multiple months. In my case, it set back our loan process by roughly 8 months. I doubt the industry has improved on this in the last decade. So when a small or regional bank fails, commercial lending is hit fairly hard locally and takes months/years to recover.
Tim
If there was a community largely dependent on a local bank I can see how it would crimp growth in that area, assuming they were unable to secure lending somewhere else. But to me that sounds less like tightening of availability of money to the whole, and more of a delay that is going to apply to a group limited to the customers of the failed bank?


Of course they're not. I didn't say they were.
Please note the post below. I interpreted your comment to mean that they cared exclusively about banks. As in, a non-bank isn't a concern.
The Fed cares about banks. Because the Fed is a bank. The Fed isn't a tech company. The Fed isn't a tech company. They don't care if a tech company goes under.

I think a major, significant reversal of policy based on one tech company is an unlikely scenario.
So I think it's likely and you think it's unlikely, that's really what this boils down to.
You're right, it'll be hard to counter-argue each other on actions the fed hasn't taken yet, so maybe we adjourn from this debate and perhaps in a year or two we'll see what happens?
 
@ArrowFlyer86

Small/regional banks provide many commercial services which the larger banks do not. This is their competitive advantage.
Here is one example: Two local banks I engaged previously offered milestone build payouts for construction with the subdivision builder. This offered me a roughly 5% discount on the cost of construction. The builder held completion bonds with the two local banks; so there was minimal risk for me. If I went to BofA for example, they offered two milestones, initial material order and when completed.
This is just one small example where small/regional banks provide services which large banks do not.

So, when a small/regional bank closes; there are multiple effects:
1. is a delay in lending; which does help cool the economy short term.
2. It can also lead to missed opportunities, which are economic activity that is forever lost.
3. Potential assets moved to more restrictive institutions (e.g. larger banks) which reduce total loan capacity.
4. Potential assets moved to banks which do not offer certain products/services.

There are also possible knock on effects such as discussed in this article: https://us.cnn.com/2023/03/22/investing/premarket-stocks-trading

To make the case easy, use the example of moving all of SVB deposits of roughly $200B USD to JP Morgan. What this means in terms of lending capacity, in a normal fractional reserve system is a reduction in lending capacity. SVB had a fractional reserve of roughly 8% which is the total required for small/regional banks; while JP Morgan is around 11%. This would reduce lending capacity by $6B USD. This is a knock on effect that constrains the system.

Tim
 
32c37f04fc9250473bd94c511acb7299.jpg
 
The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said First Citizens is acquiring all of Silicon Valley Bank’s deposits, loans and branches, which will open Monday morning under the new ownership.

The purchase includes $119 billion in deposits and about $72 billion of SVB’s loans at a discount of $16.5 billion. Some $90 billion of SVB’s securities will remain in receivership.



Probably a paywall: https://www.wsj.com/articles/first-citizens-acquires-much-of-failed-silicon-valley-bank-5a4545f
 
Hi.
Second, communism. No, communism is not at all what you described. Is that what happened in the USSR, to some extent. But that is not communism.

You most definitely are entitled to your opinion. I am not sure how much of your life you spent in countries that are communist but without that type of behavior and attitudes, communism would not exist. It's the only way they can stay in power.
 
That was because CS had limited US customers, and US Patriot Act requirements for banks are very onerous. I know of multiple banks which made the same policy decision. The final result seems to be a mixed bag.

Tim

Except I was living in Europe so it made things very difficult for a while.
 
Hi.


You most definitely are entitled to your opinion. I am not sure how much of your life you spent in countries that are communist but without that type of behavior and attitudes, communism would not exist. It's the only way they can stay in power.
Except it isn't communism. Authoritarianism- yes, for sure. China has a stock market, a bond market, etc. Those things don't exist in communism. A Chinese person can start their own business and amass a large fortune. That doesn't happen in communism. So long as they stay in the good graces of the authorities, they can keep that fortune too. China and Vietnam are "communist" in name only.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/communism
 
It's a means to an end, with the end being an authoritative government. That's the unwritten and obvious end state of Marx's plan. There are multiple shortcuts to that end as well. No matter what the system, there will always be people trying to game it to their advantage. To think otherwise, or to believe it's possible to eliminate those selfish interests, isn't naive, it's silly. So we have a system here that has a LOT of problems, but it's been proven to be pretty robust at adapting to the game players. Not pretty, often messy, but there are far, far worse. The attempts toward perfect usually end up the very worst of all, because they are in direct conflict with freedom of thought and action, and those are thankfully core features of humanity.
 
I'm in favor of authoritative government.
I'm opposed to authoritarian government.
 
I'm in favor of authoritative government.
I'm opposed to authoritarian government.

:) I tend to like neither, but recognize that they do, sadly, need a little bit of authority now and then. A little bit. And I'll take the hit on missing the word and not edit to correct it. Yep, I consciously meant 'authoritarian'.
 
I was using "authoritative" in sense #2.

authoritative
adjective
au·thor·i·ta·tive ə-ˈthȯr-ə-ˌtā-tiv ȯ-, -ˈthär-

1 : having, marked by, or proceeding from authority
authoritative church doctrines
an authoritative decision
an authoritative manner

2 : possessing recognized or evident authority : clearly accurate or knowledgeable
an authoritative critique
an authoritative source of information
 
Oh! Well that's never going to happen.
 
Well this thread is headed towards a lock.
 
A few interesting tidbits from the Senate testimony and the news.
1. ~200B USD in total assets.
2. 48B USD withdrawn on Thursday.
3. Shutdown the bank Friday morning due to 100B USD attempted withdrawls.
4. End of Thursday, just under 1B USD cash on hand. Utilized emergency cash from Federal Reserve to close the books Thursday.

That means over a two day period, the bank would have lost over 75% of its depositors. No bank can survive that.

Tim
 
It's a means to an end, with the end being an authoritative government. That's the unwritten and obvious end state of Marx's plan. There are multiple shortcuts to that end as well. No matter what the system, there will always be people trying to game it to their advantage. To think otherwise, or to believe it's possible to eliminate those selfish interests, isn't naive, it's silly. So we have a system here that has a LOT of problems, but it's been proven to be pretty robust at adapting to the game players. Not pretty, often messy, but there are far, far worse. The attempts toward perfect usually end up the very worst of all, because they are in direct conflict with freedom of thought and action, and those are thankfully core features of humanity.
Democracy, the worst form of government, except for all the others. – Winston Churchill.
 
Well off of that topic and back to our regular scheduled programming! (IDK how communism and all that stuff got brought up in the first place...)

A few interesting tidbits from the Senate testimony and the news.
1. ~200B USD in total assets.
2. 48B USD withdrawn on Thursday.
3. Shutdown the bank Friday morning due to 100B USD attempted withdrawls.
4. End of Thursday, just under 1B USD cash on hand. Utilized emergency cash from Federal Reserve to close the books Thursday.

That means over a two day period, the bank would have lost over 75% of its depositors. No bank can survive that.
It's what happens when you put yourself in a situation where people have reason to doubt your survival...
I'd still like to see what's in the $90,000,000,000 of securities that First Citizens was unwilling to buy and remain in receivership :popcorn:
I'm guessing at least 34 billion of that is the loans they gave to customers so that they could go buy securities (guessing shares in private companies?). Those are going to be hard to pawn off at par value in this environment...
 
Hi.
Not sure why you think customers of the bank should pay the price for the bank management.

Because they / know the rules and decided to ignore them. It's not brain surgery, if you assume the higher risk because someone sells you a bill of goods, promising things that they can't deliver, without you verifying first you will likely pay the piper.

As to China and others like it, make no mistake nothing in a Communist country is controlled and owned by an individual / co., everything is owned by the government, any company that does business in those countries are feeding the monsters. There is a naive thinking in this country that there are more than one kind of communism, just because they never experienced it and just know it from reading books.
 
First Republic is still not out of the woods. They announced Friday they’ll suspend pay dividends on the preferred stock in addition to the already suspended dividends for common stock.

The stock’s value is down 90%; not sure they’ll make it to the end of the year.
 
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