Survey – Decline of Personal General Aviation

EdFred said:
Is fuel cheaper for older airplanes?
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He is saying if the aircraft is kept in a crappy condition it should be cheaper than the one that's kept in a perfect condition. And if the aircraft is made in 1955 and has avionics from that time period it should be cheaper to rent than something from 2005.

So no, fuel isn't cheaper, but everything else is.
 
ssonixx said:
Absolutely in agreement. There are some great pilots out there who encourage open dialog and are constructive. But it does seem, especially behind the screen of anonymity afforded to posters in forums, that many pilots are more interested in self promotion, shielded behind a massive veil of attitude, and generally trying to prove to everyone else how much they know at the expense of, or discouragement of, less experienced pilots. As I said, there are many exceptions and they really are gems. I, for one, appreciate you. The other majority make this Darwin's fraternity.
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I agree.

POA should support anything that flies, and the pilots that fly them, at any experience level.
 
I completed the survey for you.

I must add that one reason I believe GA is on the low is because nobody has any interest in dumping a ton of funds into something that they think is going to kill them.
 
MachFly said:
He is saying if the aircraft is kept in a crappy condition it should be cheaper than the one that's kept in a perfect condition. And if the aircraft is made in 1955 and has avionics from that time period it should be cheaper to rent than something from 2005.

So no, fuel isn't cheaper, but everything else is.
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Should be. But air-frame maintenance is probably higher on the older aircraft - and that labor rate is the same whether old or new. Remember, no one is making a killing in airplane rentals.
 
Surveying participants in an activity asking why it is in decline seems like extremely poor methodology, though unsurprising coming from ER. No doubt the faculty in charge is very happy.

Might be better to ask non-particpants why they are non-participants, especially those with the resources to participate in the activity. Might give a somewhat less biased and more realistic view.
 
Took the survey. Looks like a simple capstone thesis, nothing ground breaking there.

Its painful to see all of slanderous hate from people against ERAU grads. I often scratch my head in search of why. I however keep drawing the same conclusion: People attend ERAU because they WANTED to go to an aviation university (same goes for UND-Aerospace). They know full well they are paying a very high premium to get a level of education equal to a state university system. Most know (key word: most) that going to ERAU -WILL NOT- give them a superior edge once they are actually hired by an aviation outfit. They go because they all wanted to be somewhere with like-minded aviation enthusiast. It’s a very rare occasion the see someone there who isn’t geared that way.

Now eight years after graduating, living in the real world, and having a career that has little to do with my degree; do I feel as if I was handed some type of cosmic un-justice for "OVERPAYING" for an education that didn’t give me a leg up in my career field (Program Management)? No. I enjoyed going to a place where people centered on the same thing, flying...I enjoyed my time working towards something that was tangible, where beer wasn’t my only objective after a full day of classes (flying was). And yes I do feel as though I’m a more confident pilot (yes I fly GA) because of it.

And all of my fellow experienced graduates, friends, colleagues, and acquaintances will draw nearly the same conclusion...Although we could have had a top notch education from MIT, Harvard, (insert top college) for nearly the same price. None of those institutions have a group of young men and women drawn together for a similar reason...ERAU and UND-aerospace students all have some level of passion for Aviation.

Regardless if you think ERAU is a money pit...it’s a respected university. And like other expensive institutions of very high pedigrees such as MIT, Harvard, Service Academies, etc., all college graduates learn their biggest lessons well after graduation. They learn that skill isn’t learned through an undergraduate education, it’s earned through experience and valuable life lessons.

I’m not here to change your mind…I’m just trying to point out that a vast majority of ERAU students are there for camaraderie and an education that’s focused on their passions. If that wasn’t their highest priority (above their own finances), then they would have attended a local state university with an aviation program, and saved a lot of dough.

Dave M
CFI/MEI-I
Program Manager, USAF
 
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Timbo70 said:
Survey results can be found at the following links:

Non-Pilots:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yha0efl2b95lkj6/Non%20Pilot%20SurveySummary_02192013.pdf?m

Pilots:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w7r9iw75o433ab4/Pilot%20SurveySummary_02192013.pdf?m

Many thanks to those who participated in the survey and to those who made meaningful contributions to the topic through personal e-mail correspondence and discussion board post.
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Timbo70,

Thanks for presenting your results. However, could you please let us know what values you get if you do one of the following for the question "How old is the aircraft that you fly most often for personal/recreational use?"

1) Discard all entries with values greater than 75 years. The average aircraft age is simply too large to be believed. It is inconsistent with statistics elsewhere. A small number of people entering very large numbers can easily skew the average.

2) Or supply the median value rather than the mean value. A few outliers are not going to change the median by much, and it is likely a more informative number than mean age.
 
Thanks



Jim Logajan said:
Timbo70,

Thanks for presenting your results. However, could you please let us know what values you get if you do one of the following for the question "How old is the aircraft that you fly most often for personal/recreational use?"

1) Discard all entries with values greater than 75 years. The average aircraft age is simply too large to be believed. It is inconsistent with statistics elsewhere. A small number of people entering very large numbers can easily skew the average.

2) Or supply the median value rather than the mean value. A few outliers are not going to change the median by much, and it is likely a more informative number than mean age.
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I have the same question.
 
This is interesting. On the non-pilot survey number 9: "I prefer flight simulation over real world flying." Who were the 37 idiots that agreed?? :eek:
 
Timbo70 said:
Survey results can be found at the following links:

Non-Pilots:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yha0efl2b95lkj6/Non%20Pilot%20SurveySummary_02192013.pdf?m

Pilots:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w7r9iw75o433ab4/Pilot%20SurveySummary_02192013.pdf?m

Many thanks to those who participated in the survey and to those who made meaningful contributions to the topic through personal e-mail correspondence and discussion board post.
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Wouldn't, say a random sampling of people from Walmart be more representative of non-pilots than the sim community? We're you looking at sim vs IRL or just for folks interested in aviation but not actually flying?
 
MachFly said:
This is interesting. On the non-pilot survey number 9: "I prefer flight simulation over real world flying." Who were the 37 idiots that agreed?? :eek:
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I know of a couple of people who would agree.... but let's not go there ;-)
 
So? That's just the raw survey results, what did you do with that information? So far all you showed us was what others gave you, now lets see what you did with it. What revelation have you deduced from all this? What about this can you expound on to show that you have a mastery of the subject?
 
Jim Logajan said:
Timbo70,

Thanks for presenting your results. However, could you please let us know what values you get if you do one of the following for the question "How old is the aircraft that you fly most often for personal/recreational use?"

1) Discard all entries with values greater than 75 years. The average aircraft age is simply too large to be believed. It is inconsistent with statistics elsewhere. A small number of people entering very large numbers can easily skew the average.

2) Or supply the median value rather than the mean value. A few outliers are not going to change the median by much, and it is likely a more informative number than mean age.
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Jim,

The question confused folks because it was not clearly worded. The response box would accept any number. Many folks entered the production year of the aircraft while others entered the calendar age. I will go back and clean up the results to determine the correct mean age.

thanks,
Tim
 
It's the money. Whenever I tell someone I'm taking lessons they get really interested and then lose interest rapidly when I start outlining the costs.
 
Timbo70 said:
Jim,

The question confused folks because it was not clearly worded. The response box would accept any number. Many folks entered the production year of the aircraft while others entered the calendar age. I will go back and clean up the results to determine the correct mean age.

thanks,
Tim
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Thank you. Unless your thesis is already written and submitted, it would be wise to review all the raw data and make adjustments (which you'll need to note of course) prior to submission.
 
Money is the first and only reason on my list.

With everything else getting crunched, all hobbies are going by the wayside. My monthly budget costs are up about 45% in the past 3 years, something has to give. I wouldnt' be angry about that if I'd actually gotten something for my money rather than losing it.

So I'm flying less. If I hadn't changed jobs, I wouldn't be flying at all.
 
bflynn said:
Money is the first and only reason on my list.

With everything else getting crunched, all hobbies are going by the wayside. My monthly budget costs are up about 45% in the past 3 years, something has to give. I wouldnt' be angry about that if I'd actually gotten something for my money rather than losing it.

So I'm flying less. If I hadn't changed jobs, I wouldn't be flying at all.
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I feel your pain Brian, my disposable income has all but been disposed of.
My prediction is that the rich will continue to get richer and their employees will get paid less and less.
Eventually it won't matter how much money the rich have hoarded to themselves because the US dollar will be a worthless piece of paper.
 
bartmc said:
Wouldn't, say a random sampling of people from Walmart be more representative of non-pilots than the sim community? We're you looking at sim vs IRL or just for folks interested in aviation but not actually flying?
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Rusty,

I wanted to tap into simmers as a potential pilot population for two reasons. One to determine why they had not pursued certification and two to determine if consumer flight simulation software is being perceived by younger generations as an adequate surrogate for actual flight.

Tim
 
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Reading through some of the more inflammatory comments on this thread I have come to the realization that some of you think I am a 20 something kid that racked his certs and ratings up at ERAU and is dreaming of a career in the airlines. Sorry but that would be far from the truth. Actually I am a 42 year old active duty Lieutenant Colonel in the army working my way through grad school at night and on weekends trying to get an advanced degree before retiring from the army. I don’t aspire to fly an aluminum tube between point A and B. I’m perfectly happy flying my Cessna 150J whenever the chance presents itself. I’ve been flying for seven years and have done all of my certs and ratings Part 61 up through CFI on my own dime and own time. I love the freedom to fly and the GA community and I want to preserve it for my 11 year old son to enjoy as well. This project seemed to be a perfect fit and would hopefully benefit the community. If you don’t like how I am approaching the subject or the fact that the school I am attending happens to be ERAU you are entitled to your opinion. Hope this sets the record straight and tones down the hate.
 
Timbo70 said:
Reading through some of the more inflammatory comments on this thread I have come to the realization that some of you think I am a 20 something kid that racked his certs and ratings up at ERAU and is dreaming of a career in the airlines. Sorry but that would be far from the truth. Actually I am a 42 year old active duty Lieutenant Colonel in the army working my way through grad school at night and on weekends trying to get an advanced degree before retiring from the army. I don’t aspire to fly an aluminum tube between point A and B. I’m perfectly happy flying my Cessna 150J whenever the chance presents itself. I’ve been flying for seven years and have done all of my certs and ratings Part 61 up through CFI on my own dime and own time. I love the freedom to fly and the GA community and I want to preserve it for my 11 year old son to enjoy as well. This project seemed to be a perfect fit and would hopefully benefit the community. If you don’t like how I am approaching the subject or the fact that the school I am attending happens to be ERAU you are entitled to your opinion. Hope this sets the record straight and tones down the hate.
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