Suicide attempt

[azure]

You are so right.
He just banned me for a month from the Red Board because I exposed some of his lies.

Stephen, I rarely visit that forum any more because of the way Bruce runs it, but I did happen to notice that exchange. I would say rather that he banned you because you refused to back down. He gets short very quickly when discussing any scientific matter on that forum, he doesn't stand for any questioning at all on matters within the scope of his expertise, and he responds quite firmly when someone persists. I would disagree that Bruce has lied about anything, but will admit that he doesn't volunteer the fact that he was definitively NOT in the anti-3rd Class camp until CAMI stopped letting him consult with them on specific cases during the 3rd class exam, which happened I think last June. He acts as if he was always on the "right side" of the issue, which in his mind I believe he has been. His position on this is very nuanced and carefully reasoned.

For the record, I have met Bruce in person several times and actually like him. He is charming, soft-spoken, and will try to persuade you with the reasonableness of his argument. He is also a great storyteller. I wish I could say he was a great CFI but I've never had occasion to hire him in that capacity. In short, if my only contact with him was in person, I would find it hard to believe that it was the same person moderating that forum. It's likely yet another example of the impersonal nature of electronic communication bringing out facets of personalities that we usually don't see.

Some folks here have suggested that Bruce might be brought back if he was made a forum moderator. As much as I'd like to see him back, I hope this doesn't happen as there are good conversations that take place here that he would probably shut down in a NY minute. That's okay, we all have our talents, and areas where our particular temperament makes us the wrong person for the job. I would have no hesitation sending someone his way, or going to him myself if I felt I needed his services as a difficult case AME (which I have before -- from a distance, and he was extremely helpful -- and very well may in the not too distant future). He's obviously one of the best at what he does and I hope he stays in practice for a long time.

 

[EdFred]

We will all kiss his ass so that he comes back and advises people to spend thousands of unnecessary dollars to get a medical because of trivial ****. He doesn't post unless it includes the phrase "full work up".

It'll be great. The only downside is that there's not enough space on this forum an ego that size. Maybe we can start a fundraiser to buy some cloud space to hold it all?

He'll only come back if he's made a mod so he can just delete any information that contradicts his opinion or disrupts his world view. I mean, he's a dr and a pilot after all, he shouldn't be subjected to other people's experiences with the FAA or viewpoints doncha know?

Just pay your AOPA dues and post on the red board while praying the good Dr is in a good mood and doesn't delete your post if you want over burdensome medical advice.

What amazes me is most think he is was trying to help aviation when the reality is he was only trying to help himself. If he truly cared about aviation he would put his ego aside to help people here. I was hoping he would calm down and come back, but unless he has full control and can dominate the conversation he won't contribute. What a narcissistic egotistical ********.

I can see you both know him personally, and have spent several weekends with him to really know that's how he is. <---sarcasm for the morons who didn't pick up on it.

 

[denverpilot]

Bruce is a good egg. Have met him in person once.

He has awful online skills. He's from a different generation that really doesn't get that Internet postings aren't formal memos.

Nor does anyone really care what anyone online says about him nor does anyone apply it with any seriousness to their opinion of him. Smart people read a hundred posts and pay attention to what he says and skim the rest. That's the Internet.

In fact... the younger Internet crowd will think this:

- Level of care on what others say about him: Nil. Let them babble. We all can tell Bruce is usually right. Not always. Stories of success trump all. He has significant success. And plenty of thank you's from plenty of folks. Big points.

- Level of care about how he reacts: High. This tarnishes his online image way more to younger folk than anything anyone argues with him about. Deleting posts actually removes evidence of how silly the detractors are. Knocks away a lot of points.

Sounds strange, but that's how online stuff works. Just look at how no one bothers to post on company forums that censor their detractors online - the conversation simply moves elsewhere and is harder to find. Impossible without Google.

But ... I've seen that before and he's not the only person in the older generation that makes this online PR mistake.

Nobody cares who argues with you or what they say on the Internet. The best solution is simply to state that the person is wrong and flatly leave it there.

Further explanation is sometimes warranted but never required. It's the Internet for god's sake.

Plus I've never believed that smart people are smart in all the things that they do. Everyone has blond moments and blind spots.

Having moderated some Internet forums in the past you learn quickly that these conversations aren't handled like they are in person.

And I have NO doubt Bruce would bury most of his online detractors in person. They'd at least walk away with a higher respect for his willingness to defend a position.

But... He does have that blind spot. We all have them. Deleting stuff on the Net is generally a PR no-no. It always detracts from the deleter more than the deletee. Always. Internet personas value leaving even bad content in place and searching through it for truth on their own terms. It's the whole reason folks join discussion forums.

If you're searching for facts without other oddball arguments, you look for a FAQ. A document. By the best author you can find. A "Bruce FAQ" on his website could be used as a significant tool to lower his blood pressure by simply linking to it when someone whips out a tired oft-repeated argument with him. "Read the FAQ... Here..." Argument over. Folks click through and read and realize he's done the homework without him having to say another word. Add to the FAQ as needed. Or change it if needed when circumstances change.

It doesn't take long for Google to find solid documents like that, and place them above all other searches.

Bruce the Doctor: A+
Bruce the Internet New Media Tactician: C+

Not a big deal. I still know who I'd be calling for Doctor help. If I needed to "hire" Internet message board mods, he wouldn't be on my short list.

I don't think that's saying anything particularly mean toward him or meant as harmful in any way.

 

[Mrs. SixPapaCharlie]

My only experience with Dr. Bruce is I had a question that I emailed him about a couple weekends ago. He replied within 12 hours and gave me sound advice at no charge. And I was cleared for my medical on Friday, so it all is good.

I really appreciated his quick turnaround and willingness to help.

 

[iRyan]

The man helped me out when my AME made an issue of my illness; he did free of charge. Everytime I had a question (one was while I was dying in the hospital), Dr Bruce always took the time to answer. I hope he knows that I remain grateful for his help.

 

[BG305]

I had a close friend and CFI who was in a similar situation with you. I got to see the letters from the FAA for him to get recerted. It starts with a full PPP workup which is a bunch of psychological tests (which back ten years ago was going to run him about $1000) plus a report from a board certified Psychiatrist (i.e., and MD) of his status (enough appointments with the doc to get the picture probably another $1000).

The good news if the above shows you're clean and you've been off *ALL* psychoactive drugs for a sustained time, you will likely be able to get at least a special issuance which will just require annual status reports for a while to renew (but the AME can do it).

It will take a decent AME (like Dr. Bruce) to guide you through the process if you don't want it royally screwed up.

That's what they will make you do and they run about $2500as of last year.

 

[patrick wentworth]

+2 Eren

 

[nddons]

Please, Bruce using it as an advertising forum? He's retired from his real medical practice, I wonder if his aeromedical stuff even handles his overhead. I don't do the Red Board anymore but have seen his posts for many years and he had never struck me as hawking his service. As for people who go to him, I have never heard one complain about prices.

Agreed. If you have an SI, he's the man. Everyone that I know that needed an SI, and I mean about 5 people, have had to wait weeks or months for their SI and medical from their part time AME. He had me so well prepared that it was just days befor I got my medical back.

His fee was peanuts.

 

[Bonanza]

Stephen, I rarely visit that forum any more because of the way Bruce runs it, but I did happen to notice that exchange. I would say rather that he banned you because you refused to back down. He gets short very quickly when discussing any scientific matter on that forum, he doesn't stand for any questioning at all on matters within the scope of his expertise, and he responds quite firmly when someone persists. I would disagree that Bruce has lied about anything, but will admit that he doesn't volunteer the fact that he was definitively NOT in the anti-3rd Class camp until CAMI stopped letting him consult with them on specific cases during the 3rd class exam, which happened I think last June. He acts as if he was always on the "right side" of the issue, which in his mind I believe he has been. His position on this is very nuanced and carefully reasoned.

No, Bruce banned me because I exposed the lie that he was in the forefront of the movement for third class medical reform. He is on record as having consistently opposed a DL medical, but now that the tide is changing he pretends that he has always been at the forefront of the movement.
I have no personal axe to grind with Dr Bruce and I am on record as stating my utmost respect for what he has done to help a few airmen get certified. He is running a business and the AOPA board is a fertile recruiting ground. If you threaten his supreme position on that board he has the power to silence you. That is OK, AOPA never really has been very interested in the red board nor in the interests of its members unless they are paying customers.

For the record, I have met Bruce in person several times and actually like him. He is charming, soft-spoken, and will try to persuade you with the reasonableness of his argument. He is also a great storyteller. I wish I could say he was a great CFI but I've never had occasion to hire him in that capacity. In short, if my only contact with him was in person, I would find it hard to believe that it was the same person moderating that forum. It's likely yet another example of the impersonal nature of electronic communication bringing out facets of personalities that we usually don't see.

I also have never had occasion to meet Bruce in person. I suspect that if he is exhibits the same characteristics as a CFI as he does a moderator I would not relish the prospect of flying with him.

Some folks here have suggested that Bruce might be brought back if he was made a forum moderator. As much as I'd like to see him back, I hope this doesn't happen as there are good conversations that take place here that he would probably shut down in a NY minute. That's okay, we all have our talents, and areas where our particular temperament makes us the wrong person for the job. I would have no hesitation sending someone his way, or going to him myself if I felt I needed his services as a difficult case AME (which I have before -- from a distance, and he was extremely helpful -- and very well may in the not too distant future). He's obviously one of the best at what he does and I hope he stays in practice for a long time.

There are nearly 4000 AME's and AOPA has a great resource for providing advice in difficult cases. Nearly 400,000 airmen get certified each year without Dr Bruce's help. He has built himself up to be something of a legend in the small pool of these forums but the truth is that most people get certified without his help and although he has been successful in helping a few airmen who may not have gotten certified otherwise, the vast majority of us manage with the other resources that are available and don't have to put up with the dictatorial 'my way or the highway' attitude that he exhibits.
Stephen.

 

[poadeleted21]

I can see you both know him personally, and have spent several weekends with him to really know that's how he is. <---sarcasm for the morons who didn't pick up on it.

I'm not a veterinarian but I do recognize a horses ass when I see one.

 

[AuntPeggy]

If someone is seriously suicidal and not just trying to make a political or egocentric statement; they don't give a damn what others think or what the consequences might be.

The use of "The Thought Process" doesn't exist. It is all internally focused, and when one gives up on hope -- the act proceeds.
If it doesn't succeed, the thought is, "What else is new? Situation Normal!"
And the whole protocol renews and continues until success is attained or the situation is solved.

Talking helps no one (unless someone is attempting extortion for that help)

It sounds like you've been very hurt by someone.

Most of the time, when someone thinks or talks about suicide they actually have mixed feelings about dying. Most often, suicidal feelings come from having a mental illness, and these illnesses can be treated with professional help. Medication, talk therapy, or a combination of the two has been shown to save lives. The best way to help is to encourage and assist the suicidal person to get the help they need.
https://www.afsp.org/preventing-suicide/frequently-asked-questions

 

[Henning]

Most suicides never talk about it.

 

[steingar]

I'm not a veterinarian but I do recognize a horses ass when I see one.

Utterly uncalled for. A rude, venal, and utterly uncalled for attack. You should be utterly and absolutely ashamed of yourself. I'm going to recommend to the moderators of this site that you be banned from it right away.






What have you got against horses anyway?


All kidding aside, Ed is absolutely right. What someone is like on the internet has nothing to do with what they're like in person. Ask Geico if you don't believe me.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Most suicides never talk about it.

People who die by suicide usually talk about it first. They are in pain and oftentimes reach out for help because they do not know what to do and have lost hope. Always take talk about suicide seriously. Always.
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-myths.html

 

[Fearless Tower]

Bruce is a good egg. Have met him in person once.

He has awful online skills. He's from a different generation that really doesn't get that Internet postings aren't formal memos.

Nor does anyone really care what anyone online says about him nor does anyone apply it with any seriousness to their opinion of him. Smart people read a hundred posts and pay attention to what he says and skim the rest. That's the Internet.

In fact... the younger Internet crowd will think this:

- Level of care on what others say about him: Nil. Let them babble. We all can tell Bruce is usually right. Not always. Stories of success trump all. He has significant success. And plenty of thank you's from plenty of folks. Big points.

- Level of care about how he reacts: High. This tarnishes his online image way more to younger folk than anything anyone argues with him about. Deleting posts actually removes evidence of how silly the detractors are. Knocks away a lot of points.

Sounds strange, but that's how online stuff works. Just look at how no one bothers to post on company forums that censor their detractors online - the conversation simply moves elsewhere and is harder to find. Impossible without Google.

But ... I've seen that before and he's not the only person in the older generation that makes this online PR mistake.

Nobody cares who argues with you or what they say on the Internet. The best solution is simply to state that the person is wrong and flatly leave it there.

Further explanation is sometimes warranted but never required. It's the Internet for god's sake.

Plus I've never believed that smart people are smart in all the things that they do. Everyone has blond moments and blind spots.

Having moderated some Internet forums in the past you learn quickly that these conversations aren't handled like they are in person.

And I have NO doubt Bruce would bury most of his online detractors in person. They'd at least walk away with a higher respect for his willingness to defend a position.

But... He does have that blind spot. We all have them. Deleting stuff on the Net is generally a PR no-no. It always detracts from the deleter more than the deletee. Always. Internet personas value leaving even bad content in place and searching through it for truth on their own terms. It's the whole reason folks join discussion forums.

If you're searching for facts without other oddball arguments, you look for a FAQ. A document. By the best author you can find. A "Bruce FAQ" on his website could be used as a significant tool to lower his blood pressure by simply linking to it when someone whips out a tired oft-repeated argument with him. "Read the FAQ... Here..." Argument over. Folks click through and read and realize he's done the homework without him having to say another word. Add to the FAQ as needed. Or change it if needed when circumstances change.

It doesn't take long for Google to find solid documents like that, and place them above all other searches.

Bruce the Doctor: A+
Bruce the Internet New Media Tactician: C+

Not a big deal. I still know who I'd be calling for Doctor help. If I needed to "hire" Internet message board mods, he wouldn't be on my short list.

I don't think that's saying anything particularly mean toward him or meant as harmful in any way.

I think that's a pretty good assessment, Nate.

 

[azure]

No, Bruce banned me because I exposed the lie that he was in the forefront of the movement for third class medical reform. He is on record as having consistently opposed a DL medical, but now that the tide is changing he pretends that he has always been at the forefront of the movement.

Please point to where he has said anything of the sort. Bruce is not the sort to lie about anything - as far as I can tell he's scrupulously honest and expects the same from his pilot clients. He doesn't have to pretend anything - he has always been in favor of replacing the 3rd class with something less onerous. He has never been - and I'm pretty sure he is still not - in favor of applying the current "DL" sport pilot standard to all operations that currently require a 3rd class. When I last visited that sad forum I think I noticed a recent post by him supporting something like the CDL standard. I suspect you've misunderstood where he's coming from this. Bruce is not for relinquishing all federal medical oversight on noncommercial GA, he's in favor of reforming the standards, which he has been for several years. What happened last June has just made him more determined to do something about it. I've never seen him pretend anything else - but it's easy to get a different impression if you don't pay attention to the entire context of what he writes.

Then again, I could be wrong. As I said, I don't often read that forum, it's just too depressing. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.

I have no personal axe to grind with Dr Bruce and I am on record as stating my utmost respect for what he has done to help a few airmen get certified. He is running a business and the AOPA board is a fertile recruiting ground. If you threaten his supreme position on that board he has the power to silence you. That is OK, AOPA never really has been very interested in the red board nor in the interests of its members unless they are paying customers.

And that's the kind of comment that makes him see red - understandably IMHO, since his reputation is so well established that he certainly doesn't need to hold out on the Red Board or anywhere else.

Stephen, I don't blame you for being bitter toward Bruce for banning you. As I've said, he's really not suited to be a forum moderator and he abuses his authority there regularly. You're not the first that he's come down on hard for simply standing up to him. That's not an excuse to make accusations that he does what he does to protect his financial interests - I don't think you'll find much sympathy for that kind of insinuation here.

 

[Henning]

Sometimes in the past, I've had a strong urge to dive my navion on a large ship screaming....Banzi! Not lately mind you but this has happened in the past. Should I call Dr? Bruce and seek his advice?

Nah, just get some of these to mounting your wings.


https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=417860285044738

 

[flyingron]

People who die by suicide usually talk about it first. They are in pain and oftentimes reach out for help because they do not know what to do and have lost hope. Always take talk about suicide seriously. Always.
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-myths.html

i find that site a little dubious in some of their claims. However, other more substantial sites do indicate that those contemplating suicide may give signs and talk about it. However, it's not the case that they always talk to those who are either predisposed or able to intervene. A guy can ***** about his marital situation to his wife and perhaps a smaller circle of friends, but is unlikely to unload on others.

But I agree, if you have someone who is exhibiting the signs, take action:
http://www.save.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=705f4071-99a7-f3f5-e2a64a5a8beaadd8

 

[retailguy]

Please point to where he has said anything of the sort. Bruce is not the sort to lie about anything - as far as I can tell he's scrupulously honest and expects the same from his pilot clients. He doesn't have to pretend anything - he has always been in favor of replacing the 3rd class with something less onerous. He has never been - and I'm pretty sure he is still not - in favor of applying the current "DL" sport pilot standard to all operations that currently require a 3rd class. When I last visited that sad forum I think I noticed a recent post by him supporting something like the CDL standard. I suspect you've misunderstood where he's coming from this. Bruce is not for relinquishing all federal medical oversight on noncommercial GA, he's in favor of reforming the standards, which he has been for several years. What happened last June has just made him more determined to do something about it. I've never seen him pretend anything else - but it's easy to get a different impression if you don't pay attention to the entire context of what he writes.

Then again, I could be wrong. As I said, I don't often read that forum, it's just too depressing. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.


And that's the kind of comment that makes him see red - understandably IMHO, since his reputation is so well established that he certainly doesn't need to hold out on the Red Board or anywhere else.

Stephen, I don't blame you for being bitter toward Bruce for banning you. As I've said, he's really not suited to be a forum moderator and he abuses his authority there regularly. You're not the first that he's come down on hard for simply standing up to him. That's not an excuse to make accusations that he does what he does to protect his financial interests - I don't think you'll find much sympathy for that kind of insinuation here.

Bruce once told me several years ago not to "waste time" thinking about something that was "never" going to happen in regards to the third class medical. It didn't really matter to him whether or not it was or wasn't a good idea, at that time, it plain and simple was dead on arrival so he didn't spend one second even giving it space in his head. That lead to a long discussion about what Craig should have done, and how it would've passed and the FAA would've taken action on it. I believe that is what dominated his thinking at that time.

Today things are different because circumstances have changed in a way you couldn't have predicted then. So maybe that's the change? Instead of Assuming, maybe someone should ask him? There's a heck of an idea...

 

[Mason]

No, Bruce banned me because I exposed the lie that he was in the forefront of the movement for third class medical reform. He is on record as having consistently opposed a DL medical, but now that the tide is changing he pretends that he has always been at the forefront of the movement.

Wrong.

What he opposed was AOPA's initial initiative because he felt it went too far and was "never gonna happen." And was therefore a total waste of time.

And he's been proven to be correct about that.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Wrong.

What he opposed was AOPA's initial initiative because he felt it went too far and was "never gonna happen." And was therefore a total waste of time.

And he's been proven to be correct about that.

Not exactly. That was indeed his initial objection, but then for a while here he blanketed any talk of third class medical reform as 'never going to happen' regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Bruce is a good egg. Have met him in person once.

He has awful online skills. He's from a different generation that really doesn't get that Internet postings aren't formal memos.

Nor does anyone really care what anyone online says about him nor does anyone apply it with any seriousness to their opinion of him. Smart people read a hundred posts and pay attention to what he says and skim the rest. That's the Internet.

In fact... the younger Internet crowd will think this:

- Level of care on what others say about him: Nil. Let them babble. We all can tell Bruce is usually right. Not always. Stories of success trump all. He has significant success. And plenty of thank you's from plenty of folks. Big points.

- Level of care about how he reacts: High. This tarnishes his online image way more to younger folk than anything anyone argues with him about. Deleting posts actually removes evidence of how silly the detractors are. Knocks away a lot of points.

Sounds strange, but that's how online stuff works. Just look at how no one bothers to post on company forums that censor their detractors online - the conversation simply moves elsewhere and is harder to find. Impossible without Google.

But ... I've seen that before and he's not the only person in the older generation that makes this online PR mistake.

Nobody cares who argues with you or what they say on the Internet. The best solution is simply to state that the person is wrong and flatly leave it there.

Further explanation is sometimes warranted but never required. It's the Internet for god's sake.

Plus I've never believed that smart people are smart in all the things that they do. Everyone has blond moments and blind spots.

Having moderated some Internet forums in the past you learn quickly that these conversations aren't handled like they are in person.

And I have NO doubt Bruce would bury most of his online detractors in person. They'd at least walk away with a higher respect for his willingness to defend a position.

But... He does have that blind spot. We all have them. Deleting stuff on the Net is generally a PR no-no. It always detracts from the deleter more than the deletee. Always. Internet personas value leaving even bad content in place and searching through it for truth on their own terms. It's the whole reason folks join discussion forums.

If you're searching for facts without other oddball arguments, you look for a FAQ. A document. By the best author you can find. A "Bruce FAQ" on his website could be used as a significant tool to lower his blood pressure by simply linking to it when someone whips out a tired oft-repeated argument with him. "Read the FAQ... Here..." Argument over. Folks click through and read and realize he's done the homework without him having to say another word. Add to the FAQ as needed. Or change it if needed when circumstances change.

It doesn't take long for Google to find solid documents like that, and place them above all other searches.

Bruce the Doctor: A+
Bruce the Internet New Media Tactician: C+

Not a big deal. I still know who I'd be calling for Doctor help. If I needed to "hire" Internet message board mods, he wouldn't be on my short list.

I don't think that's saying anything particularly mean toward him or meant as harmful in any way.

I have known Bruce for years. Stayed at his house. Flown his Seneca. We trade calls and cards and letters. He is a class act. Is he perfect? No. But then, who is? Well, besides Henning, of course! :wink2:

 

[flyingron]

Stating the opinion that "it ain't going to happen" is different than opposing it. I was equally pessimistic even though I believed 100% that the Third Class Medical is an unjustified waste of resources on both the FAA's and the pilot's part.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Stating the opinion that "it ain't going to happen" is different than opposing it. I was equally pessimistic even though I believed 100% that the Third Class Medical is an unjustified waste of resources on both the FAA's and the pilot's part.

While true, when you dismiss anyone who even mentions the possibility of reform with that, it gets a bit oppressive.

Nate hit the nail on the head. Bruce the doctor, A+. Bruce the Internet user.....not so much.

 

[F01LA]

Not on AOPA anymore, but Bruce is showing positive signs about 3rd class medical reform now? That's good news.

Debates about his online persona aside, Dr. B was a huge help on a difficult medical and a real blast in person. I shudder to think of how the process would have gone with a less informed local AME. Deferral and many stressful months at the very least.

I've seen the results of uninformed pilots going to uninformed (or non-caring) AMEs, and it's not pretty. Not everyone needs someone like Dr. Bruce, but for those who do he's a godsend. For those who don't, he'll still answer your questions for free.

 

[dans2992]

Is Bruce a smart, knowledgable, generous guy? Yes

Does he have a massive ego especially if you disagree with him? Yes.

Gotta take the good with the bad. Learn how to deal (or not deal) with him and you'll be fine.