Sufficiently offending the seller of an aircraft?

More than 60% of the world's population is Asian so if this mentality is typical Asian then it represents the majority of the world population and is therefore not unique.
 
James331 said:
I always thought you made a offer, they made a counter offer, rinse and repeat a few times, shook hands or moved on.
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Nope. If the original offer represents a total waste of my time, I may tell him that, or I may just ignore him and hope he either goes away or gets serious. I take excellent care of my airplanes. Of course, he doesn't know that unless he enters a serious conversation and does an inspection. If all he wants is cheap, he can go elsewhere.
 
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, it seems, than most of you guys. When I decide to sell, I price it fairly and don't want to haggle. I hate haggling for cars, airplanes, boats or hamburgers.
 
When I sell my cars, I am that guy that truly represents the car for what it is (and I take extremely good care of my cars), and I price them fairly. Will I haggle? Sure. But I know everything about the car, have all the receipts and maintenance history, and I'll still sell at a very fair price. Because, while I like to haggle, I want the haggle to be meaningful.

I know, I know... my ancestors are rolling in their graves. :p

In this particular instance, the seller had no photos to share and limited information about the aircraft. I had to email the school where it's has been for several years to receive some information (albeit terse), and their A&P offered no response to my phone calls and email. I paid another A&P to visually check the aircraft, paid for a title check, accident history, etc. to ascertain what I could about the aircraft. Whatever the case, I provided what I thought was fair, especially given the costs I incurred doing due-diligence given the limited information.

I made peace with myself and am moving on. Besides, it's not as if I'm without an aircraft. I am in a partnership on a new LSA, but it would have been nice to have called one "my own." I can wait for the right deal to come along.
 
JOhnH said:
Nope. If the original offer represents a total waste of my time, I may tell him that, or I may just ignore him and hope he either goes away or gets serious. I take excellent care of my airplanes. Of course, he doesn't know that unless he enters a serious conversation and does an inspection. If all he wants is cheap, he can go elsewhere.
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That's called a owner, not a seller.
 
mtuomi said:
And someone offering half of asking is called a dreamer, not a buyer :)
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LOL. "Asking" is exactly that...asking. And buyers should treat that number for what it is, and do their own DD. There is no evidence that sellers as a cohort are more knowledgeable about the market or prices than the aggregate of buyers. They are just as prone to allow emotions to prevail, and mis-price their prize possession, as buyers are to underbid.

The last airplane I bought was for less than half of the original asking price. The seller's broker was unfamiliar with both the type and the market for it, and did the seller a great disservice. Some months after I walked I got a call from the owner who had finally turfed his broker and was trying to move the airplane privately. I bought it for materially less than my earlier offer through his broker, which was well below the listed price - I felt that was a fair trade for the previous waste of my time. And clearly my assessment of the value and market were closer to reality than either the seller or his broker.
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
Point is, I'm all about negotiating. Much like the original poster, I think I enjoy it more than most (though I'm not Asian...that I'm aware of).
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I also don't mind negotiating. I don't like (love?) it as much as my father did, but he worked his whole life in sales, and in numbers and quantities that most folks don't.

I do enjoy his business desktop calculator however -- why I never knew they made such things as a gadget nerd, I have no idea. I must have seen it a million times on his desk when he was alive and never paid any attention to it, but it's a handy little gadget!

Not as powerful as say, Excel, which he also loved more than I do, but I do like my spreadsheets.

Anyway, negotiation isn't any big deal at all. People get all emotionally wrapped up in it which serves little purpose.
 
denverpilot said:
...Anyway, negotiation isn't any big deal at all. People get all emotionally wrapped up in it which serves little purpose.
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In much of the world it is a form of entertainment. When I was an expat living in the Middle East I used to make a point of exploring the interior shops off the tourist path in the Khan el-Khalili whenever I had time while in Cairo. One day accompanied by one of my young Arab engineers I found an antique silver coffee pot with hand hammered Arab calligraphy under a pile of junk in a dingy metal salvage shop. The contest was on. Five hours later, after learning all about the proprietor's children, discussing regional politics, feigning outrage and beginning to walk out several times, and drinking enough tea out of tiny glass cups to damn near explode my bladder we agreed with a handshake on a price in US$. It was almost the perfect deal because he was sure he had outwitted his newfound foreign friend, and I was sure I got the bargain of the trip. I say "almost", because when we finally emerged back into daylight and headed down the alley my Arab co-worker pronounced "You could have got it cheaper if you weren't in such a hurry". That perfectly summed up the difference between us.
 
I was selling my previous Cessna 140. It was painted and I didn't want paint anymore! The nice ones go for $21K and up, I had it listed at $24K. It was a beautiful plane with a low-time engine and all logs back to 1946. I priced it a little high to give me room to negotiate.

A guy called me and told me he lived nearby and was very interested. I met him at the hangar. We talked airplanes and flying and he seemed like a good guy. He looked the plane over and then told me he was very interested at $10K. I closed the hangar, got in my truck and drove away. He tried calling me and left a voicemail saying he guessed he'd insulted me, but really was interested in the plane. I didn't waste my time calling him back. He'd wasted enough of it already.

Oddly enough, the next guy that called me told me he wasn't going to be very good at negotiating with me. He said he knew it wasn't smart to let a seller know how badly you want something, but he really wanted it. I showed him a Barnstormers ad for the plane I have now and told him if he paid me enough to buy this plane we had a deal. We quickly agreed on a price and he's been flying it ever since.
 
mtuomi said:
And someone offering half of asking is called a dreamer, not a buyer :)
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So put your big boy pants and and hit him 150% of your listed asking price, back and forth it goes.

You'd be horrible and tennis ;)
 
James331 said:
So put your big boy pants and and hit him 150% of your listed asking price, back and forth it goes.

You'd be horrible and tennis ;)
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When hopping helicopter rides at Mount Rushmore the Indian customers always wanted to haggle.

"How much"?
"$49 each person for 6 minute ride"
"How about 3 people for $39 for 10 minute ride"?
"How about $69 each for 4 minute ride...."

That usually cut the process short as otherwise they would waste a great deal of your time which wouldn't matter except there were 100s of other full price passengers waiting in line.

So yea, don't know why someone would get their panties wadded up over a low ball. Hit them back with a high ball.
 
Am I the only one here who loves a good negotiation?
 
James331 said:
Am I the only one here who loves a good negotiation?
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The funny part is all those who think their method is superior.

They are the easiest type of people to negotiate with.

It's the flexible people who are the best negotiators. The ones who can read a person, and adjust their strategy to accommodate the change in environment.




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Let'sgoflying! said:
I don't get the buyer criticism of a ship being sold.
Buyer appears to think they will get a better price by pointing out deficiencies.
Even if they are valid deficiencies, the seller knows about them and it won't help your case.
It is insulting to criticize someone's airplane, so knock it off!
If it has deficiencies - individual or in sum - which the buyer cannot tolerate - then walk away.
If not, then take what you know of the market and how the current bird fits into the continuum of 'scrap' to 'mint' and make your respectful & unemotional offer - and await a response.
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I don't know that I entirely agree with what you said on this one. I'd never intentionally try to insult someone, or their aircraft, especially if I was trying to buy it. But, pointing out material deficiencies is part of purchasing anything, especially if the seller is trying to downplay those deficiencies.

I have a diesel truck that I use for pulling our horse trailer. Back when I first bought it the seller was asking too much, having priced it on the higher side of an "excellent condition" vehicle (based on blue book values). I decided to put an offer on the truck, but wasn't about to pay the seller's asking price (or anywhere close to it) for this truck. I wrote up an offer, and explained in detail about which material deficiencies caused me to lower my price *significantly* below his asking price. I was very polite in my offer, but I didn't pull any punches on the vehicle's condition. I called the seller before submitting the offer, and told him I'd be sending him the document.

The seller called me after I submitted this offer, and told me that he'd think about it and talk to his wife, but he didn't know if we'd be able to reach any kind of agreement (if I recall correctly my offer was a solid 25% below asking price). I told the seller that I completely understood his position, but wanted him to at least know where I was coming from with my offer... then I waited. I was expecting a counter-offer, but the seller called me up about an hour later and agreed to sell for the price I submitted to him.

I NEVER insulted him, but I certainly pointed out every material defect I saw that wasn't originally disclosed in the advertisement for the truck. Why wouldn't I do that? Sure, the seller knows about them (presumably). But, the seller is trying to downplay those deficiencies if they haven't priced the vehicle accordingly. The same should be true for aircraft, at least in my opinion.


EDITED TO ADD:

Admittedly this tactic is far less effective when the seller has already disclosed all of the material deficiencies right up front. I had a couple buy my used lawnmower this spring, when I replaced it with a new one. I placed an add on Craigslist, and detailed the condition of the lawnmower very well (disclosing all deficiencies). I also posted a lot of pictures.

The female half of this couple called me, negotiated a price with me over the phone (wanting to pay $25 under my $150 asking price). I accepted her offer, and the couple came to buy the lawnmower.

The guy showed up and started trying to play hardball with me, murmuring about "Oh, there seems to be scratches on the deck here, and the handle is loose in this spot... what can you do on the price because of that?"

I just responded: "The price is firm. Your wife already negotiated your price, and I disclosed all of these issues to you before you ever drove out here".

The guy acted like he was going to walk, and I just told him to let me know when he made his decision. He paid the price we'd agreed upon.
 
Superior? For me yes, for you maybe not. You may like "winning the deal" and beating someone out of a dollar. For me it's about getting or selling a plane. I Don't get a thrill out beating someone, it makes me feel like s piece of trash.
 
I hate negotiating. So I've had the experience of walking away and the seller saying, "wait, wait, don't you want to make an offer?"
 
I had a guy make an offer on my boat about a year ago, way below asking and way below recorded sales of similar boats. I told the broker to not bother responding. Sold it a few months later for considerably more than Mr Low ball. If you have a reason to justify a lower offer, by all means make it known and make the offer. But, offering someone XX% below asking price is a silly way to approach any transaction if you are serious about buying the one you are looking at. I hate negotiating, sounds odd coming from a car guy, but I'd rather throw it on the table and if we both like the numbers move forward or move on. I am easy to buy something from, especially a boat or an airplane, when I am ready to sell, it means I have identified the next one and am I ready to move on. :D
 
Coloradokevin said:
I don't know that I entirely agree with what you said on this one. I'd never intentionally try to insult someone, or their aircraft, especially if I was trying to buy it. But, pointing out material deficiencies is part of purchasing anything, especially if the seller is trying to downplay those deficiencies.
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I understand that this works for some people, in some situations.
For me, I would probably stop anyone who started listing defects by holding up my hand and saying, "Whoa. I know all too well the deficiencies and do not need to hear about them. My ask-price takes all that into consideration. If you'd like to make an offer, no need to make excuses for it - just lay it out and I will accept or reject or counter it."
 
If you are Asian, and the seller is Indian. There is a problem. There is no deal to be had there. Move on.
Russel Peters is of course the expert on this sore subject.

 
Coloradokevin said:
I don't know that I entirely agree with what you said on this one. I'd never intentionally try to insult someone, or their aircraft, especially if I was trying to buy it. But, pointing out material deficiencies is part of purchasing anything, especially if the seller is trying to downplay those deficiencies.

I have a diesel truck that I use for pulling our horse trailer. Back when I first bought it the seller was asking too much, having priced it on the higher side of an "excellent condition" vehicle (based on blue book values). I decided to put an offer on the truck, but wasn't about to pay the seller's asking price (or anywhere close to it) for this truck. I wrote up an offer, and explained in detail about which material deficiencies caused me to lower my price *significantly* below his asking price. I was very polite in my offer, but I didn't pull any punches on the vehicle's condition. I called the seller before submitting the offer, and told him I'd be sending him the document.



I NEVER insulted him, but I certainly pointed out every material defect I saw that wasn't originally disclosed in the advertisement for the truck. Why wouldn't I do that? Sure, the seller knows about them (presumably). But, the seller is trying to downplay those deficiencies if they haven't priced the vehicle accordingly. The same should be true for aircraft, at least in my opinion.
.
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The need to justify your offer, and educate the Seller is interesting.

The Seller knows what is wrong with the PU/Plane/Etc. He owns it. He drives it. He sees it everyday.

Almost all these things being sold are sold "asis", so, what you see is what you get. If there are other scratches, etc that you don't like, you don't have to buy it. But, if you think you are going to make me sympathetic to your offer by spending hours pointing out what you don't like, and then sending me a document of everything you don't like, and an offer, chances are I will NOT sell to you, because I would be afraid you would be the annoying Buyer that kept calling me back up for months, everytime some little nickle-dime thing came up.

The biggest scam going right now, on "negotiating" is the real estate inspection scam, where Buyers and Sellers agree to a price on the home, subject to an inspection. And then the inspector coming up with a list of items (scratched paint on door moulding in master bedroom, water heater 13 years old, may be coming to end of useful life, sprinkler valve dripping in valve box, etc) and the Buyer demanding the Seller repair the items.

And, due to the emotions of selling a home (when the Seller likely has already found their next home), you see sellers agreeing to make a 13 year old home "new", in order to meet the "inspection". Last time a Buyer tried this with me, I reminded the other real estate agent that the home was sold "as is, where is", so if those items needed to be addressed, they would have to come out of her real estate commission.....

Funny, but the Buyer closed anyway....
 
Oh Geee ... I HATE negotiating ...AND I will be selling My Airplane soon to buy another one , soo I'll be on Both sides of the Table . I am not looking forward to Tire Kickers and Dreamers wasting my time either . When I bought this plane I paid what the seller was asking and feel I paid a fair price . While shopping for planes online lately I have seen the Deals go quickly and the Dogs keep getting relisted every month . This thread has been a good education on what to expect .
 
Evidently I'm in the same boat as the OP. 1-2 months ago I offered 85% of asking price on a C310. Been researching for a long time, used Vref and what others have been selling for to come up with a fair offer price (while maybe not my final price) and no response. I left a voicemail and replied on TaP and controller and nada.
 
Radar Contact said:
Evidently I'm in the same boat as the OP. 1-2 months ago I offered 85% of asking price on a C310. Been researching for a long time, used Vref and what others have been selling for to come up with a fair offer price (while maybe not my final price) and no response. I left a voicemail and replied on TaP and controller and nada.
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I bought a 421B about 6 years ago, I looked at one that was a bank owned airplane, hadn't been on Flightaware in over 2 years, broker had it hangared. Good looking airplane, needed some avionics, like most 40 year old airplanes. I made an offer of, say $165K, the ask I was $189K. I felt like I was right on the money, low time engines, but it had been sitting for a long time, even though he said they ran it periodically. He told me they would never take that for the airplane and that was that, I bought one a couple weeks later and when I sold it 3 years later, the first one was still listed!! :eek:
 
JoseCuervo said:
The need to justify your offer, and educate the Seller is interesting.

The Seller knows what is wrong with the PU/Plane/Etc. He owns it. He drives it. He sees it everyday.

Almost all these things being sold are sold "asis", so, what you see is what you get. If there are other scratches, etc that you don't like, you don't have to buy it. But, if you think you are going to make me sympathetic to your offer by spending hours pointing out what you don't like, and then sending me a document of everything you don't like, and an offer, chances are I will NOT sell to you, because I would be afraid you would be the annoying Buyer that kept calling me back up for months, everytime some little nickle-dime thing came up.

The biggest scam going right now, on "negotiating" is the real estate inspection scam, where Buyers and Sellers agree to a price on the home, subject to an inspection. And then the inspector coming up with a list of items (scratched paint on door moulding in master bedroom, water heater 13 years old, may be coming to end of useful life, sprinkler valve dripping in valve box, etc) and the Buyer demanding the Seller repair the items.

And, due to the emotions of selling a home (when the Seller likely has already found their next home), you see sellers agreeing to make a 13 year old home "new", in order to meet the "inspection". Last time a Buyer tried this with me, I reminded the other real estate agent that the home was sold "as is, where is", so if those items needed to be addressed, they would have to come out of her real estate commission.....

Funny, but the Buyer closed anyway....
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We had a home inspector pull that on us about 12 years ago, I explained that the house had to meet code when it was built, not current code. I did fix a couple items that I thought were legitimate, but most of it was BS.
 
JoseCuervo said:
The funny part is all those who think their method is superior.

They are the easiest type of people to negotiate with.

It's the flexible people who are the best negotiators. The ones who can read a person, and adjust their strategy to accommodate the change in environment.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Method?

What on earth are you talking about, its just a back and forth till both sides find a number which works for the both of them. I sold cars as a kid, its really not rocket surgery, ideally one side wants the plane for free, and the other side would ideally like to make so much their family never had to work a day again in their life, both sides know that aint going to happen, so back and forth till its a palatable deal. As a buyer, more folks want your cash then the other dudes plane, and I would never pay full asking price, just on principle.

As long as youre not meek, its kinda fun really
 
JoseCuervo said:
The need to justify your offer, and educate the Seller is interesting.

The Seller knows what is wrong with the PU/Plane/Etc. He owns it. He drives it. He sees it everyday.

Almost all these things being sold are sold "asis", so, what you see is what you get. If there are other scratches, etc that you don't like, you don't have to buy it. But, if you think you are going to make me sympathetic to your offer by spending hours pointing out what you don't like, and then sending me a document of everything you don't like, and an offer, chances are I will NOT sell to you, because I would be afraid you would be the annoying Buyer that kept calling me back up for months, everytime some little nickle-dime thing came up.

The biggest scam going right now, on "negotiating" is the real estate inspection scam, where Buyers and Sellers agree to a price on the home, subject to an inspection. And then the inspector coming up with a list of items (scratched paint on door moulding in master bedroom, water heater 13 years old, may be coming to end of useful life, sprinkler valve dripping in valve box, etc) and the Buyer demanding the Seller repair the items.

And, due to the emotions of selling a home (when the Seller likely has already found their next home), you see sellers agreeing to make a 13 year old home "new", in order to meet the "inspection". Last time a Buyer tried this with me, I reminded the other real estate agent that the home was sold "as is, where is", so if those items needed to be addressed, they would have to come out of her real estate commission.....

Funny, but the Buyer closed anyway....
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Not always, some computer programmer with a stay at home wife, might not know much about septic, or electrical, not everyone can even change a door knob.

Now when I buy a house, much like a plane, chainsaw, whatever, I negotiate off stated condition, if on the inspectors (or my) inspection of the house/dog/whatever things which were maybe not known, or known but not advertised, come up, well that was not factored into the initial deal and will require some math, aint nothing new there.
 
James331 said:
Not always, some computer programmer with a stay at home wife, might not know much about septic, or electrical, not everyone can even change a door knob.

Now when I buy a house, much like a plane, chainsaw, whatever, I negotiate off stated condition, if on the inspectors (or my) inspection of the house/dog/whatever things which were maybe not known, or known but not advertised, come up, well that was not factored into the initial deal and will require some math, aint nothing new there.
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And, your "inspection" was when you walked thru the home, and saw the paint scratch on the door moulding, saw that the home was 13 years old (and by deduction, saw that the water heater, furnace, AC, stove, fridge, etc...were 13 years old). Then to have an "inspector" come in and say that the appliances need replaced, as they might be "reaching the end of their useful life".

The home was 13 years old. The appliances are 13 years old. etc...

It is a good technique, and lots of people are getting seller concessions to cover the list of items on a house that is being sold "as is".

To my way of thinking, the "inspection" is to have an "expert" look to see if there are things you should walk away from. Not provide you with a list to re-open negotiations.

As JB said above, the "bring it up to new code" list of items are also nonsense. I saw that on a handrail on a set of front steps.
 
That's a different thing, unless they advertised the home as freshly painted with new appliances, the inspector doesn't have a point to make and I a normal reasonable person isnt going to expect new stuff and fresh paint.
 
N747JB said:
I bought a 421B about 6 years ago, I looked at one that was a bank owned airplane, hadn't been on Flightaware in over 2 years, broker had it hangared. Good looking airplane, needed some avionics, like most 40 year old airplanes. I made an offer of, say $165K, the ask I was $189K. I felt like I was right on the money, low time engines, but it had been sitting for a long time, even though he said they ran it periodically. He told me they would never take that for the airplane and that was that, I bought one a couple weeks later and when I sold it 3 years later, the first one was still listed!! :eek:
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I wonder what 189k minus three years of hangar rent and whatever else equaled ?
 
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