Suddenly jonesing to own

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Doug F

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DougG
This is not another 'should I buy <plane x>' thread. I'm looking for help getting information on the process of buying and owning.

I just got my Sport Pilot and had no intention of buying; I've got maybe 10 years left before I shouldn't be flying so I figured the cost to own was net less than renting.

I've flown enough now to understand how nice it is to bypass auto traffic to get from point A to point B. (taking my first long trip next month from Georgia to FL 5 hr vs 8-10 and I get to avoid Atlanta traffic!). Suddenly the idea of owning has some traction.
I'm just starting to poke around looking at LSA but have no clue what constitutes a good deal vs crap.

Are there good resources to help a total noob stay out of trouble when buying a plane?
Any terms that mean 'stay away unless you have buckets of spare money'?
What are some good places to find dependable LSAs? Any sites to avoid?

Right now I'm flying a Skycatcher and the performance is acceptable for me. I generally cruise at about 90 airspeed. A bit slower or faster would be OK. Lots slower...not so much.

Since I'm just starting to think about this, I don't really have a budget in mind. I'm likely to spend between $10,000 - $18,000/year (wet) on rental. Whatever I buy would need to be the same or less including maintenance, hanger/tie-down, annuals, rebuilds, insurance, consumables, etc. I have no clue what local parking rates are or how much all the stuff you need to do to own a plane actually costs.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
Sounds to me like you're a candidate for ownership, but I'll let those who are experienced with that sort of thing fill you in.
 
You are a perfect candidate for a buyers broker. You will pay, but you will have an ace in your pocket.
 
Just saying a $800 a month in payments leaves $3000 for annuals and other maintenance, $800 for insurance, $100 per month for a tiedown, and $275 per month for 100LL.

I'd start there from a money perspective.
 
If your happy flying sport pilot,you are better off buying than trying to rent. There are plenty of used light sports for sale at a good price. You have to run the numbers,for your area.good luck in your endeavors.
 
Also checkout this nice 182Q from Van Bortel. Very nice people to deal with and they have a 1 year money back guarantee. If the plane develops a problem, they will give you your money back. Perfect for a first time buyer. They will also deliver for the sale price as posted.

https://vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/1038/1979-cessna-182q-skylane-ii

This plane is $800 per month for $20K down and 20 years.

It's a lot more plane than an LSA, but you get there in fast at 130+ KTS and 1150lb useful load.
 
Lachlan said:
Cessna 150. Cheap to own, maintain and operate, cruise at your desired rate of 90 knots.
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I don't think the 150 is an LSA. Total loaded weight has to be < 1320 lbs. I think the 150 is upwards of 1600 lbs loaded. I'm not interested in PPL (at least right now).
 
NordicDave said:
Also checkout this nice 182Q from Van Bortel. Very nice people to deal with and they have a 1 year money back guarantee. If the plane develops a problem, they will give you your money back. Perfect for a first time buyer. They will also deliver for the sale price as posted.

https://vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/1038/1979-cessna-182q-skylane-ii

This plane is $800 per month for $20K down and 20 years.

It's a lot more plane than an LSA, but you get there in fast at 130+ KTS and 1150lb useful load.
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Nice site but no LSAs for sale. Are there any other good on-line sites you can recommend?
 
There are a bunch of 162s for sale on trade-a-plane.com.
 
Be sure to check out the manufacturer and distributor reputation and responsiveness. Good to have a company that will still stand behind their product.

Given this, even though they’ve gone through some re-organization, a CTsw would be a good buy, have useful load, and if you’re factoring $18K a year in rental costs, the purchase of one around $55K would have you covered in about 3 years. Next would be a Remos GX (though the CTsw holds more fuel (more endurance) and faster cruise. If you would consider an E-LSA or E-AB, Vans RV12 would be a good buy too.

Barnstormers is a good website to checkout LSAs as well.
 
Doug F said:
Nice site but no LSAs for sale. Are there any other good on-line sites you can recommend?
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Call Bortel and tell them what you want. They are brilliant at finding the cream puffs and back them with their money back guarantee. It's worth the small extra for a new buyer.
 
NordicDave said:
Call Bortel and tell them what you want. They are brilliant at finding the cream puffs and back them with their money back guarantee. It's worth the small extra for a new buyer.
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There aren’t many lsa’s That are old cream puffs. Most are relatively new. which means maintenance probably won’t be bad, but the purchase price may be a shock.
 
GeorgeC said:
There are a bunch of 162s for sale on trade-a-plane.com.
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OK, great site. Thanks.

So I'm still trying to dig my way through the alphabet soup of aircraft acronyms.
Listing: 2011 Cessna 162 Skycatcher, N6027L, 900 TTAF&E SNEW

As near as I can determine, the 162's TBO is 2000 hour so this plane is almost 1/2 way there, right? The closer you are to the TBO interval, the more likely you are to get whacked with a $20,000 overhaul bill, right?
AF&E means 'Airframe and Engine' so the airframe also needs an overhaul at <x hours> which is/is not the same as the TBO time?
What is SNEW? I just tried doing a search and I'm not finding anything that looks like it relates.
More questions as I get deeper into this.
 
Salty said:
There aren’t many lsa’s That are old cream puffs. Most are relatively new. which means maintenance probably won’t be bad, but the purchase price may be a shock.
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Bortel just sold a 162 for $62K with their warranty. I'd call a couple of brokers who will do a search. Company's like Bortel know of planes and owners who want to sell. They don't buy everything they look at, until their is demand.
 
Salty said:
There aren’t many lsa’s That are old cream puffs. Most are relatively new. which means maintenance probably won’t be bad, but the purchase price may be a shock.
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Yeah. The newer stuff is really new and pricey (or kits and I'm not going there). There are a bunch of classic planes that qualify as LSAs. Most are tail draggers and built in the '40s. I'm not opposed to either old or taildragger but want to understand all the options and benefits/risks before I commit.
 
I'd start with SP-compatible experimentals, either E-AB or E-LSA. The S-LSA has a bunch of annoying maintenance and sale requirements that a private owner does not really need, unless he wants to buy new, fly a few years, get rid of it as if it were a car. For example, the seller must include all SBs with the sale documentation.

Also, the relaxed speed requirements open the field dramatically. All the cute tube-and-fabric planes are yours for the taking, and not just Aeroprakt: Aerotrek, RANS, Kitfox. In fact, I'd stay away from Aeroprakt. It's too new in the U.S., although its reputation is generally positive in Europe.

BTW. Georgia has a noticeable tax load. See this thread: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/ad-valorem-tax.79648/
 
zaitcev said:
I'd start with SP-compatible experimentals, either E-AB or E-LSA. The S-LSA has a bunch of annoying maintenance and sale requirements that a private owner does not really need, unless he wants to buy new, fly a few years, get rid of it as if it were a car. For example, the seller must include all SBs with the sale documentation.

Also, the relaxed speed requirements open the field dramatically. All the cute tube-and-fabric planes are yours for the taking, and not just Aeroprakt: Aerotrek, RANS, Kitfox. In fact, I'd stay away from Aeroprakt. It's too new in the U.S., although its reputation is generally positive in Europe.

BTW. Georgia has a noticeable tax load. See this thread: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/ad-valorem-tax.79648/
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It's not too bad. for something like he's looking at, $300 - $700 most likely, depending on the county in which it is sited.
 
So many to choose from in that speed category.
Check out the sites and start off maybe by filtering down to things that are close to you. If you see some, then you can buzz around, possibly get a few rides, and see if you fine 'the one'.
I'll second the notion of RV-12 or CTsw's. Both seem to be popular, reliable, and have large(ish) support groups.
 
Doug F said:
OK, great site. Thanks.

So I'm still trying to dig my way through the alphabet soup of aircraft acronyms.
Listing: 2011 Cessna 162 Skycatcher, N6027L, 900 TTAF&E SNEW

As near as I can determine, the 162's TBO is 2000 hour so this plane is almost 1/2 way there, right? The closer you are to the TBO interval, the more likely you are to get whacked with a $20,000 overhaul bill, right?
AF&E means 'Airframe and Engine' so the airframe also needs an overhaul at <x hours> which is/is not the same as the TBO time?
What is SNEW? I just tried doing a search and I'm not finding anything that looks like it relates.
More questions as I get deeper into this.
Click to expand...

The airframe doesn't need an overhaul at "x" hours. The reason its shown as AF&E is because the engine has not come to its first overhaul interval, so the engine and airframe have the same time on them. For airplanes where the engine has been overhauled the airframe hours keep ticking up and will be listed separate from the engine hours, the latter will be shown as TSOH (time since overhaul) or TSN (time since new) if the original engine was replaced with a new one.
"SNEW" means "since new."

Some of the older taildraggers that qualify would be really interesting and entertaining airplanes to own and fly, and in many cases less expensive to buy than a late model LSA.
 
If you're staying light sport and don't mind 90kt...

Ercoupe! Just make sure it's a light sport capable model, not all are. I think the 415C is your target.
 
Too lazy to read back and see your budget. A good used option would be a P92 Eaglet or Echo from Tecnam.
 
Aeroprakt is a great LSA with 1000 of them flying out there in the last 20 years or so.
The a22ls model is a stol like plane with stall speeds at 25-30 knots and cruising at around 90 knots.
They are coming out with a new model in the US , the A32 which , interestingly, maintains the same low stall speed while cruising at around 115 knots.
Both are being sold by Dennis Long out of Tennessee ( he is a dealer for Aeroprakt )

Overall , a lovely plane, with 50 inch wide cabin , incredible visibility.
Last year when I was on the market for a plane , I was seriously looking at the A32 but unfortunalty at that time they were only being sold in Australia and Europe.
Another worthwhile options is Aerotrek -a kitfox like plane from Europe , sold by a dealer in Indiana.

As I mentioned I was in the same boat last year , trying to decide if I should get something certified like a used Diamond or maybe experimental Rv but ultimately , given my purpose ( flying around the patch with occasional , few hundred miles trips without any deadlines or particular purpose ) a 115 knots modern LSA was the best option - these are true stick and rudder planes , agile and incredibly fun to fly -just don’t plan to use one as a poor man’s Cirrus or a Mooney and you gonna have tons of fun.
 
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Thank you all for your thoughts. I think my trip to FL will influence my decision. Oh, and getting my sigOther into the plane is a must have if i want to justify this as a travel option - see honey, for the price of a nice used RV we can skip the traffic jams.

What got me seriously thinking about this was the realization we could fly to NH in about 10 hours with stops instead of a long 2 day drive.
 
Doug F said:
Thank you all for your thoughts. I think my trip to FL will influence my decision. Oh, and getting my sigOther into the plane is a must have if i want to justify this as a travel option - see honey, for the price of a nice used RV we can skip the traffic jams.

What got me seriously thinking about this was the realization we could fly to NH in about 10 hours with stops instead of a long 2 day drive.
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With no luggage.
 
I would look at the RV-12. I’ts available as a kit or factory built. Van’s aircraft’s really perform and are a dream to fly
 
Says me don't. Not a big enough market for aircraft. Get your private, and then start looking.
 
Ruuuuun!!! It a trap!

Overall I'd say in my first year of ownership, it been about the most stressful thing Ive ever done. Constantly asking myself if Ive put my wife and I into financial jeopardy, worrying about maintenance issues, high avgas prices.

And after all that I'd probably do it again.
 
Doug F said:
Nice site but no LSAs for sale. Are there any other good on-line sites you can recommend?
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There were a couple of 162s in the Hangar C section.
 
I didn't read all of the posts as most of them are trying to get you to buy a plane you can't fly. I'd look on barnstormers.com. I did a lot of research there and ended up buying an LSA that was listed there.
 
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