Substance abuse and flying

Well, Rush if the administration decides that a human life is = 18 Million, then BAC will have to be <0.01 and there will be no aviation at all. (Current DHS value - 12 million). This all affects the "cost" vs "Cost per life saved" analysis.

A price on a human life? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

That is NOT to say that everyone who does that has the problem. But quite a few, do, or eventually will.

"Eventually will"... this is why I think how long you do it matters.

I think personality has a whole lot to do with it. A tendency to see negative trends very early, extrapolate in your imagination, causing you nip things in the bud long before other people detect any problem is a useful personality trait. It helps you avoid all kinds of problems in life.
 
One glass of wine with dinner may or may not be a problem. Any amount of substance that rearranges your brain's chemical neurotransmitters taken on a daily basis will result in permanent physical adjustments in your brain. Whether or not that change results in detectable cognitive dysfunction is another matter and I believe varies with the individual depending on genetics and environmental factors. And maybe simply, how long have you been doing it?

Translate into English: yes, one glass of wine with dinner might mean you're an alcoholic for some individuals. For others, it might not, and never result in any impairment in the next day's functioning. Or at least in any degree of detectable impairment.

Now the question of whether there's a small undetectable impairment that might have contributed to the incident, now we're back to the spectrum of likelihood. No, we can never prove that your one glass of wine with dinner was a factor the next day when you augered in but neither can we prove that it wasn't. The truth is that many things impact our performance including age. When the impact of that one drink is less than the effect of simply being 60 with your slightly slower old brain, it would be more logical to deny anyone 60 years old a certification than to worry about someone who has a glass of wine with dinner.

The truth as I see it: these things are cumulative. You're going to decline with age. You're probably already declining with subclinical pre-pre-diabetes if you eat the U.S. diet, and there's always the effects of mood, fatigue, get-thereitis, and so on. Why add one more thing to the pile?

And the crazy puritan train just left the station.

Frankly I have a beer or glass of wine because I enjoy it, I like the atmosphere with everyone kicking back a few and having a good time with good people and good conversations.

Im also not a little snowflake or a fine piece of art that is going to be put in a glass case and admired for all of eternity.

There are a zillion other ways I'm likley to meet my maker, I see them everyday at work, and having a glass of wine or a couple pints with dinner, or going out to the bar once in a while isn't going to be enough of a factor to even make this post worth anyone's time, just as the above will be viewed as common sense...for those of us who possess common sense.

Some of the oldest and wisest folks I know happen to enjoy the gods nectar, some other noteworthy people too, like the founding fathers, most every king, scholar, writer, artist and noteworthy gentleman, for whatever that's worth.
 
Well, I guess I made sure Pandora's secrets are out of the box with this post.
LOL

FYI - I am pretty straight forward, so usually no reading between lines is needed.
I really did mean just exactly what I said.... that anyone with substance abuse should not fly or drive.
So if you like to "smoke up" you should stick to walking... on the GROUND.

Anyway,
Glad you guys were entertained by my venting.
Be Safe.
God Bless.
Have Fun.
 
Hey Doc, lucky I have a boat as that wasn't mentioned. Got a Bacardi Diet for you when your ready.


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And the crazy puritan train just left the station.

If you're calling me a crazy puritan, I'm trying to figure out how you got that from my post. I in no way indicated that I think complete abstinence is appropriate for anyone except addicts.
 
I'd rather see people make their won decisions about what they can handle, sad as it is some days. I've had several friends drink themselves to death and I gave it up a very long time ago. But that's me, I found moderation to be quite a struggle.
 
I don't follow... Your life isn't in my hands, nor do I do the things you quoted... My point is that if one uses drugs or alcohol in a manner that doesn't affect anyone else, who's business is that? Don't fly drunk/stoned/hungover/etc... But beyond that I don't care what you do. I don't smoke pot, nor have I ever had a DUI or any other alcohol related issues.

I think we could all agree that a drunk, stoned, or otherwise altered pilot, truck driver, etc is not a good idea. But the OP seemingly asserted that having a 2nd or 3rd glass of wine with dinner on Saturday night (hit the magic 0.08 bac) makes one incapable of safe flight two weeks later.

I'm not buying that.
He merely stated that if you drink to excess on a regular basis, you do not like the way you feel inside and you need to change it by numbing your mind. I'm a recovering alcoholic so I'm qualified to discuss why people drink the way they do. It's sad but most people can't handle life and need something to take that edge off.
 
He merely stated that if you drink to excess on a regular basis, you do not like the way you feel inside and you need to change it by numbing your mind. I'm a recovering alcoholic so I'm qualified to discuss why people drink the way they do. It's sad but most people can't handle life and need something to take that edge off.

While it is great that you are in recovery, it only qualifies YOU to discuss why YOU drank the way YOU did.

Isn't that a central tenant among friends of Bill W?
 
While it is great that you are in recovery, it only qualifies YOU to discuss why YOU drank the way YOU did.

Isn't that a central tenant among friends of Bill W?

Yes, I'm supposed to use words like "me and I" when discussing my prior issues with alcohol. If most people are honest, they will admit that they drink excessively because they either couldn't handle life/stress or they couldn't hold a conversation in a setting without a drink, or function normally without some mind altering substance. A drink takes the edge off any situation. It gives people confidence, and courage. Most humans are alike and very predictable. But most people drink because that's just what they are used to. It's a comforting thing that is reliable to make us relax, and unwind. So yes, it is my opinion that if you drink excessively everyday, you have some sort of problem that falls into one of the 3 categories mentioned in the beginning of this thread. But we're talking about excess drinking. Not a couple glasses of wine each night. There is always a gray area when dealing with people and alcohol. If you can stop drinking after you've started, then you don't have a problem I don't think. Most alcoholics don't stop until they're in jail or they've pasted out! On the other hand, you have problem drinkers who may not have any DUI's or lost loved ones but they need a drink whenever there are idle moments or a rough/bad day. Those drinkers don't make bad decisions though. They cope differently than us. Active alcoholics make bad decisions majority of the time.
 
I'm really hoping that the OP is just ****ed off about something, and not that sanctimonious or narrow minded.

Substance abuse isn't about the substance, it's about the abuser. I've known people who regularly got plowed, but never got in anything but a cab when intoxicated. I've known people who toked regularly, but never got behind a wheel, nor showed up for any task that required sobriety in any state other than sober. We all know such people.

To say that anyone who ever gets drunk, or ever takes a hit, is unfit to do anything but walk, is by far the stupidest thing I have ever heard on this board. And if the OP is serious, he's about the dumbest person I've heard from on this board. Sorry to be insulting, but your ridiculous sermon is just as much so.

I was a paramedic in CA for 12 years. I've seen a lot of alcohol and drug related deaths, including some extremely gruesome ones. I've seen innocent people's lives ruined by people driving while under the influence. But I've also seen it happen because they were talking on the phone, eating lunch, putting on makeup, and just plain not paying attention. It isn't the drugs or the alcohol that kills people, just like isn't guns that kill people. It's stupid people that kill people. It's mentally-ill people that kill people. It's irresponsible people that kill people. If you're a practicing medic, you of all people should know that by now.
 
He merely stated that if you drink to excess on a regular basis, you do not like the way you feel inside and you need to change it by numbing your mind. I'm a recovering alcoholic so I'm qualified to discuss why people drink the way they do. It's sad but most people can't handle life and need something to take that edge off.

That is pure nonsense! Most people have no problems whatsoever handling life and its challenges. It is a very small minority that feels they need a drug to cope. Do not try to normalize your own failings and apply them to the population as a whole.
 
That is pure nonsense! Most people have no problems whatsoever handling life and its challenges. It is a very small minority that feels they need a drug to cope. Do not try to normalize your own failings and apply them to the population as a whole.
Rykymus is spot-on. Drugs and alcohol are not the problem. The person's thinking and perspective is the problem. You are right too SkyDog. It is nonsense. But you are not an alcoholic with alcoholic thinking. You can't comprehend the deep level of pain and suffering that only a drink or drug can cure. You are blessed sir. It's not really about my failings. It's more about how I used to think about the world and how I used to always play the victim. Or I manipulated every person around me in the most sneaky ways. We're discussing those that drink to excess and have bad things happen to them because of it. I challenge anyone who is a regular, get in the cab at night drinker to stop for 6 months. Most people don't realize how much of a crunch it really is until they stop. They get through life ok and handle challenges just fine...but they've got a beer in their hand while doing it. I'm not judging. I'm merely supporting the initial thread comment about the 3 categories of use and why.
 
I'm sorry but I don't agree with Mr. EMT (by the way, I was one too years ago). It's his personal opinion and not grounded in any research I've seen. It is CERTAINLY not the DSM-V definition.

Of course, once you do get a DUI, you do meet the DSM-V definition no matter how much you drink. Understand that .08 is only the PER SE limit, where the law says they don't have to show you were actually intoxicated, you are intoxicated by definition.

Those who imbibe over that limit but do not allow it to interfere with their life's activities do not meet the psychological definition of an abuser.

Once you are under an order from the FAA or terms of probation from the state or whatever, and you continue to imbibe when you know it is forbidden, you do fall under the criteria.

Do you understand? There's no BAC line in the sand you can draw. Either you moderate your drinking so that it doesn't cause problems and you are fine, or you do so to the point of causing social, legal, or medical issues and you do have a substance abuse problem.
 
Rykymus is spot-on. Drugs and alcohol are not the problem. The person's thinking and perspective is the problem. You are right too SkyDog. It is nonsense. But you are not an alcoholic with alcoholic thinking. You can't comprehend the deep level of pain and suffering that only a drink or drug can cure. You are blessed sir. It's not really about my failings. It's more about how I used to think about the world and how I used to always play the victim. Or I manipulated every person around me in the most sneaky ways. We're discussing those that drink to excess and have bad things happen to them because of it. I challenge anyone who is a regular, get in the cab at night drinker to stop for 6 months. Most people don't realize how much of a crunch it really is until they stop. They get through life ok and handle challenges just fine...but they've got a beer in their hand while doing it. I'm not judging. I'm merely supporting the initial thread comment about the 3 categories of use and why.

Dude, I have had quite a bit of pain and suffering in my life. Probably more than most alcoholics and other addicts. I would not consider myself blessed. I could type out a whole litany of terrible things that happened in my life that folks like you use to justify your addictions, yet I am not an addict. It is all about your will, not your circumstances. Get over yourself.
 
Around here for anyone with a CDL the max limit is .04, even when driving their own vehicles on their own time. I don't know how that fits the holier-than-thou original statement regarding "excess".

Having spent most of my adult life living under FMCSA, I would say for a "lowly" trucker the statement would have been .04 BAC.
But this is not a "trucker board" so I used the "national norm" for this year of .08

I get the feeling you know where some of my thinking comes from and the absolute HORROR stories of what CAN happen after a "crash" involving any motorized mode of transportation that falls under the direct oversight of our Federal Government.
I was treated to the honor of "urinating in the plastic container" for an incident where I was the one hit... while parked... in a parking spot... OFF DUTY... and sleeping soundly in my sleeper berth.
And SRT made it clear I was not going to refuse.

There is no "can't do" in the vocabulary of an "official" who has FEDERAL agencies behind them.
 
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