Sub lost contact over Titanic

SixPapaCharlie said:
Question. If it was a "slow" leak, would they have drowned or been crushed to death by the pressure first?

Assuming they are gone at this point, I think the faster the better. I can't imagine the combination of claustrophobia, waste, humidity, cold, and awareness of how helpless you are lost to the world.

I feel really bad for the kid that may have just been joining dad for one of his cool adventures and maybe without a real understanding of the potential danger.
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Nothing like a 33 degree 6000 psi waterjet in a confined space. While wearing socks.
 
nauga said:
it could be argued that the design and engineering was complex enough to make a realistic risk assessment by a layperson or someone without in-depth knowledge difficult.
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In this case, it would take a expert to determine it's safe, but it should have been obvious to a reasonably intelligent layperson that this thing wasn't safe.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Nothing like a 33 degree 6000 psi waterjet in a confined space. While wearing socks.
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Anything, including body parts, put in front of that leak would be cut or severed.

My money is on instantaneous implosion, either the plexiglass view port or due to stress failure of the Ti/Carbon Fiber joint.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I thought waivers were essentially useless and they really exist to discourage people from starting the process, but really don't do much in actuality?
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Hopefully a wiser person will respond, but, basically, "it depends." A lot.

Oftentimes, nope, they don't do much. It's very jurisdictional: within Colorado, most waivers hold up pretty well due to the ski industry and their presence and impact on legislation.

In this case, it's going to be a heck of a mess determining what jurisdictional rules apply, especially considering the owners' apparent efforts to obfuscate.
 
Dana said:
...but it should have been obvious to a reasonably intelligent layperson that this thing wasn't safe.
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I don't know enough about what was made available to potential passengers prior to signing this waiver to pass judgement one way or the other. I'm not sure anyone here really does outside of media reports that everyone says are unreliable when they don't support their arguments. Hopefully that will change.

Nauga,
timed out
 
NoHeat said:
97 hours have now passed since the dive began with an oxygen supply estimated at 96 hours.
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The recently-reported discovery of a debris field may mean discussion of the O2 supply remaining is academic…but given the recent revelations about corners being cut in design and construction of the submersible, I have my suspicions that the supply was nowhere near 96 hours to begin with.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Question. If it was a "slow" leak, would they have drowned or been crushed to death by the pressure first?

Assuming they are gone at this point, I think the faster the better. I can't imagine the combination of claustrophobia, waste, humidity, cold, and awareness of how helpless you are lost to the world.

My guess is that the structure deformed enough that it was no longer strong enough to hold back the pressure and imploded, which would be a matter of milliseconds.

Have you ever tried that trick where you can put your entire weight on an empty aluminum can, and then tap it just enough to bend it slightly, and it instantly collapses? Same principle.

I feel really bad for the kid that may have just been joining dad for one of his cool adventures and maybe without a real understanding of the potential danger.
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Have you ever tried that trick where you put your entire weight on an empty aluminum can, and it supports you, then tap it on the side just enough to dent it slightly, and it immediately collapses? That's what I think would happen, not a leak, but the structure deformed enough to where it couldn't hold back the pressure.

 
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wanttaja said:
Unless, for one reason or the other, the tour operator banned private electronic devices aboard. There's the wish to control the narrative; there's also the fire danger from the cell-phone batteries.
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Pretty sure some of the photos I’ve seen show passengers with iPhone, iPads and the like.

Found one pretty quickly.

52994331158_489e58ae54_z.jpg
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Question. If it was a "slow" leak, would they have drowned or been crushed to death by the pressure first?

Assuming they are gone at this point, I think the faster the better. I can't imagine the combination of claustrophobia, waste, humidity, cold, and awareness of how helpless you are lost to the world.

I feel really bad for the kid that may have just been joining dad for one of his cool adventures and maybe without a real understanding of the potential danger.
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Probably depends on the definition of "slow". Even a pinhole leak with 6000psi behind it is going to have quite the stream of water. I'd bet it would still be just a mater of minutes before it filled with water and the pressure was equalized. From the initial debris reports, it sounds more like it was pretty instantaneous death due to implosion.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Probably depends on the definition of "slow". Even a pinhole leak with 6000psi behind it is going to have quite the stream of water. I'd bet it would still be just a mater of minutes before it filled with water and the pressure was equalized. From the initial debris reports, it sounds more like it was pretty instantaneous death due to implosion.
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The landing frame and the aft tail cone separated from the main body. That's pretty catastrophic and significant.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
The landing frame and the aft tail cone separated from the main body. That's pretty catastrophic and significant.
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That's what I read as well. I can't imagine there would be anything useful on board to identify that happened, but I suppose if they find the main body relatively intact they might be able to revive a cell phone hard drive with video if it were in process at time of the event. Chances are pretty well beyond needle in a haystack at this point.
 
Would any liability suit fall under maritime law since conducted in international waters?? That’s an expensive and cumbersome system to navigate I’ve read
 
a pinhole leak at 6000 psi is going to destroy whatever is leaking PDQ. There is no such thing as a "leak" at 6000 psi. IMO. It's the catalyst to an immediate catastrophic failure.
 
If you think about it, a long cylindrical sub with a viewport on the end would behave just like a canon if the viewport became dislodged. It would shoot right through the other side of the sub at insane force.
 
Piperonca said:
What about the 'tapping' at 30 minute intervals on Tuesday and Wednesday?
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Water is a great sound medium. The sound could be coming from far distances, and could be entirely random background noise. Could be a door on the Titanic banging open and closed in the current. Could be a pair of crabs duking it out.
 
I am curious now that they have found a couple of identifiable pieces and are making the official call, is everyone packing up and going home or is there any more searching for the rest of the debris and/or recovery planned?
 
Bob Noel said:
don't thermoclines kind of mess with the sound propagation?
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Yes they can. Sound can reflect and be distorted by a thermocline, potentially causing very distant sounds to appear to be closer. Granted, that is based on my knowledge of reading Tom Clancy novels and playing submarine computer games and learning how sub sonar works.
 
How about if they actually did tap at 30 minute intervals, just like stranded submariners are supposed to do, and then things started getting real bad inside the crew compartment (stinky, can't breathe, dark, cold, etc.)? With no hope, maybe the capt. pulled a special cork and scuttled the vessel so as to not prolong suffering. Stranger things have happened. But it's doubtful the searchers would want that information public. Coming soon on Netflix.
 
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Of course, it could also be whale farts, who knows? Only the Shadow...
 
The debris field is wide enough to indicate that the failure occurred well above the ocean floor.

The rest of the story will unfold very slowly, but doubtless will include pictures soon.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I am curious now that they have found a couple of identifiable pieces and are making the official call, is everyone packing up and going home or is there any more searching for the rest of the debris and/or recovery planned?
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Only if there’s a prospect of good publicity. That’s just about all the motivation there is, at this point.
 
JOhnH said:
I agree to a point.
But where would we be if throughout history, people did not take risks.
And who is to choose who can take what risks? Do they all have to be government approved and sanctioned?
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Sometimes the difference between being seen as an "agent of change" or a "trailblazer" and a Darwin award winner is just surviving.

Nauga,
and his risky business
 
midwestpa24 said:
Water is a great sound medium. The sound could be coming from far distances, and could be entirely random background noise. Could be a door on the Titanic banging open and closed in the current. Could be a pair of crabs duking it out.
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Sonar operators get used to hearing the various fish and ocean-mammal sounds, usually called, IIRC, "biologics."

Reminds of an old joke. Young sonar operator hears something, and sends, "Bridge, sonar, getting odd noises."

Old-time operator listens for a moment, and says, "Son, those are whales mating."

Young operator sends, "Correction, bridge...we're hearing screw noises......"

Ron Wanttaja
 
JOhnH said:
I agree to a point.
But where would we be if throughout history, people did not take risks.
And who is to choose who can take what risks? Do they all have to be government approved and sanctioned?
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Risk is all relative. An experimental manned submersible that is controlled by an Xbox controller, is bolted closed from the outside without an emergency escape and relies on a secondary source to get it back to the surface is beyond just a risk - it’s just flat stupid.
 
RyanB said:
Risk is all relative. An experimental manned submersible that is controlled by an Xbox controller, is bolted closed from the outside without an emergency escape and relies on a secondary source to get it back to the surface is beyond just a risk - it’s just flat stupid. That said, it proves my point. Darwinism is alive and well, especially the natural selection part.
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What if you painted a Red Bull logo on the side?

Nauga,
non-hyper
 
RyanB said:
Risk is all relative. An experimental manned submersible that is controlled by an Xbox controller, is bolted closed from the outside without an emergency escape and relies on a secondary source to get it back to the surface is beyond just a risk - it’s just flat stupid. That said, it proves my point. Darwinism is alive and well, especially the natural selection part.
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... and the CEO rejected requests to inspect for composite structural delamination between missions (and terminated said employee) after cyclical failures were seen in scale testing.
 
Piperonca said:
How about if they actually did tap at 30 minute intervals, just like stranded submariners are supposed to do, and then things started getting real bad inside the crew compartment (stinky, can't breathe, dark, cold, etc.)? With no hope, maybe the capt. pulled a special cork and scuttled the vessel so as to not prolong suffering. Stranger things have happened. But it's doubtful the searchers would want that information public. Coming soon on Netflix.
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There were a lot of sonobuoys in the water by Tuesday, with more constantly being added. As was stressed in the press briefing, they did not capture the sounds of a catastrophic failure.
 
Anyone think what's left of Oceangate is going to get billed for rescue services??

Coast Guard Expects Review of Safety Standards

U.S. Coast Guard Rear Admiral John Mauger anticipates the discovery of debris from OceanGate's missing Titan will prompt a review of how submersibles like it are inspected for safety.

"I know that there's a lot of questions about why, how, when this happened, and the members of the Unified Command have those questions, too, as professionals and experts that work in this environment," Mauger, who led the Coast Guard's search efforts, said.

"But those questions about the regulations that apply, and the standards, that's going to be, I'm sure, focus of future review," Mauger said. For now, search teams are focusing on collecting information and documenting evidence, he added.​
 
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