Student Question - Course Reversal Holding Patterns

eetrojan

eetrojan

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
1,531
Location
Orange County, CA
Display Name
Display name:
eetrojan
From some reading, I see that some some approach charts (e.g. ILS or LOC RWY 9 for Riverside, KRAL) include a holding pattern, rather than a procedure turn barb, for course reversal when you're not approaching on the inbound course.

Are these course reversal holding patterns sometimes used by ATC for traffic spacing purposes too?
 
register@teamandras.com said:
From some reading, I see that some some approach charts (e.g. ILS or LOC RWY 9 for Riverside, KRAL) include a holding pattern, rather than a procedure turn barb, for course reversal when you're not approaching on the inbound course.

Are these course reversal holding patterns sometimes used by ATC for traffic spacing purposes too?
Click to expand...

The reason why is not important to you. All you need to know is that if the holding pattern is depicted as a heavy black line it is a "hold-in-lieu" and must be flown as depicted.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
The reason why is not important to you. All you need to know is that if the holding pattern is depicted as a heavy black line it is a "hold-in-lieu" and must be flown as depicted.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Thanks WI and Bob.

I understand that a holding pattern may be used in place of a procedure turn because of terrain (as noted by WI Flyer), and of course I would fly it as depicted. However, I'm still wondering if it's also potentially used for spacing or, for all practical purposes, only for course reversal.

Probably a dumb thing to wonder about, but...
 
register@teamandras.com said:
From some reading, I see that some some approach charts (e.g. ILS or LOC RWY 9 for Riverside, KRAL) include a holding pattern, rather than a procedure turn barb, for course reversal when you're not approaching on the inbound course.

Are these course reversal holding patterns sometimes used by ATC for traffic spacing purposes too?
Click to expand...
Yes, they are. Any time there's low weather here in one-in/one-out Salisbury MD (KSBY), getting stacked up in the HPILPT at COLBE for the ILS 32 (or at one of the IAF's for one of the RNAV(GPS) approaches if you're so equipped) is rather common. I've seen 'em four deep at COLBE on occasion. Long EFC when that happens -- bring plenty of gas or be ready to divert to Georgetown DE.
 
Last edited:
register@teamandras.com said:
Thanks WI and Bob.

I understand that a holding pattern may be used in place of a procedure turn because of terrain (as noted by WI Flyer), and of course I would fly it as depicted. However, I'm still wondering if it's also potentially used for spacing or, for all practical purposes, only for course reversal.

Probably a dumb thing to wonder about, but...
Click to expand...

Indeed it can be. In fact at some locations it may be used for timed approaches, where there is a tower but no radar.
 
aterpster said:
In fact at some locations it may be used for timed approaches, where there is a tower but no radar.
Click to expand...
I learned all about timed approaches working on my IR back in 1971, and still cover it for my IR trainees, but I've never been issued one by ATC. :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
I learned all about timed approaches working on my IR back in 1971, and still cover it for my IR trainees, but I've never been issued one by ATC. :dunno:
Click to expand...

I suspect they are mostly used in the few locations that have a tower and a non-radar approach control. KHLN comes to mind.

They were a lot more common prior to the 1970s. Could still be in Alaska.
 
FWIW, we did them at the boat for Case III recoveries (night or weather). Holding fixes were set a 1nm intervals with aircraft stacked with 1000-foot vertical separation. Aircraft received penetration times at one-minute intervals, and you had to depart the DME fix at that time +/- 10 seconds in order to guarantee minimum 40-second interval at touchdown (so they had time to clear the preceding plane and reset the arresting gear). If you were more than 10 seconds off the penetration time, you got spun back to the end of the line. Makes you really working on your holding pattern timing...and just to make it more fun, the DME station was moving at 12-25 knots (depending on surface wind).
 
Ron Levy said:
FWIW, we did them at the boat for Case III recoveries (night or weather). Holding fixes were set a 1nm intervals with aircraft stacked with 1000-foot vertical separation. Aircraft received penetration times at one-minute intervals, and you had to depart the DME fix at that time +/- 10 seconds in order to guarantee minimum 40-second interval at touchdown (so they had time to clear the preceding plane and reset the arresting gear). If you were more than 10 seconds off the penetration time, you got spun back to the end of the line. Makes you really working on your holding pattern timing...and just to make it more fun, the DME station was moving at 12-25 knots (depending on surface wind).
Click to expand...

Sounds like "fun."
 
If you are in radar coverage and lets say you come in form the east, you will most likely get vectors to the final approach course and not have to do the course reversal as long as your not on a POM VORTAC airway 073 CW 164
 
At the field I fly into regularly the course reversal is actually faster than your other options. The NoPT IAF is 40 miles away from the airport and most times ATC won't issue it to you as it interferes with a class C airport hub. If they give you vectors to final, they still take you way furhter out on the final than the hold-in-loo.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top