Student purchasing plane - unsure of what signoffs/endorsements required

[ArrowFlyer86]

Hi All!

My first post here, as I'm a student pilot and have found this forum immensely helpful on numerous occasions. Glad I could join! I have a question and I'm hoping this community can help.

I'm pretty far along in my PPL training and have been soloing and doing XCs for a few months, but I've had a hell of a time getting as many hours as I'd like due to scheduling issues, limited plane availability at my flight school and a ton of bad luck with weather. To rectify this I decided to buy a plane so that it's available when I am and when weather is cooperating (and I fully intended to buy one after training anyways!). I haven't purchased it yet, but plan to within the next 30 days based on the feedback I get here.

Questions:
1) The school I'm learning to fly at has exclusively light sport aircraft and instructors certified to teach in LSA. If I bought a non LSA, who can certify me to fly it? Does my current instructor have to agree or sign off as well in some capacity? Do I have to find a new instructor?
2) The particular planes I'm interested in are CS prop (but no retractable gear), but I haven't been training in one (yet). What wrench, if any, would that throw into my plan to fly it? Is this something I can only fly after I get a PPL? Curious how I should think about order of operations on what I'd need to do to actually fly? Do I need to find a flight school to sign me off on just that?

Quick note: I've read a ton of great considerations in other posts where people question the motivation to buy a plane as a student. After significant deliberation I'll just say that this is the right move for me. Flying club and other alternatives aren't very practical.

Any guidance on these 2 questions would be immensely helpful, or links to other threads that address this question (which I did not find). Or frankly, any thing I might not be thinking about that I should be considering.

Thanks again,
Tom

 

[Mike Smith]

I will answer your question(s) with what I would do if if I woke up in your shoes knowing what I know today. I would find a mid time engine, ugly but reliable C150 for 20k and get my PPL done. Then I would sell it for the same 20k and buy the plane I thought I wanted.

 

[benyflyguy]

Have you asked your CFI about it? Some schools can be ok with you having plane some others can be real problematic.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Have you asked your CFI about it? Some schools can be ok with you having plane some others can be real problematic.

Yep, I did bring it up and the CFI was OK with it (even mentioned I could do the check-ride in it if I wanted). However, we didn't discuss specific planes (e.g., a CS prop). That conversation might go differently. I guess I'm curious how I should think about my options, separate from how they feel about it (but I will of course ask them, too).

 

[Rgbeard]

You're working on a regular PPL, not a sport-pilot license, correct?

I can't believe you'd need much other than an instructor that's happy to teach in your plane.

CS Prop? What are you considering? 182?

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

You're working on a regular PPL, not a sport-pilot license, correct?

I can't believe you'd need much other than an instructor that's happy to teach in your plane.

CS Prop? What are you considering? 182?

Yeah, I'm working on a PPL not a sport license. I decided to pass that one up, too restrictive.
The CS prop plane is a Diamond DA40.

 

[TCABM]

...

Questions:
1) The school I'm learning to fly at has exclusively light sport aircraft and instructors certified to teach in LSA. If I bought a non LSA, who can certify me to fly it? Does my current instructor have to agree or sign off as well in some capacity? Do I have to find a new instructor?

The Designated Pilot Examiner is who ‘certifies’ you, but the real question you’re asking is, if you bought a non-LSA, who can instruct. That answer is anyone who holds instructor rating in Airplane Single Engine Land category. You’d have to check with your instructors, but I’d hazard to guess they do.

Now, whether the school (their employer) allows freelance work and whether the CFI has capacity to take you on is a whole different ball of wax. Talk with them to see how realistic your plan is.

...

Questions:

2) The particular planes I'm interested in are CS prop (but no retractable gear), but I haven't been training in one (yet). What wrench, if any, would that throw into my plan to fly it? Is this something I can only fly after I get a PPL? Curious how I should think about order of operations on what I'd need to do to actually fly? Do I need to find a flight school to sign me off on just that?

Thanks again,
Tom

Off the top of my head, I’m thinking T-41 and Cirrus is what you’d be looking at, but I’m sure there’s more...they just may not be a good investment at this point, but that’s your decision to make. You can receive training in the aircraft you desire; it may take a bit longer, but not terribly much so. Any endorsements required would be handled by your CFI and completed as part of your training before the checkride.

...

Questions:
Or frankly, any thing I might not be thinking about that I should be considering.

Thanks again,
Tom

You might want to check with insurers about your plan and see what they quote and what the restrictions are.

Like mentioned above, I’d look at a C150 or Cherokee and sell it for what I bought it for.

Find a CFI that will work with you on your schedule, otherwise, you just bought a paper weight. Also, have a backup or three available in case your primary CFI finds a new job.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

The Designated Pilot Examiner is who ‘certifies’ you, but the real question you’re asking is, if you bought a non-LSA, who can instruct. That answer is anyone who holds instructor rating in Airplane Single Engine Land category. You’d have to check with your instructors, but I’d hazard to guess they do.

Now, whether the school (their employer) allows freelance work and whether the CFI has capacity to take you on is a whole different ball of wax. Talk with them to see how realistic your plan is.



Off the top of my head, I’m thinking T-41 and Cirrus is what you’d be looking at, but I’m sure there’s more...they just may not be a good investment at this point, but that’s your decision to make. You can receive training in the aircraft you desire; it may take a bit longer, but not terribly much so. Any endorsements required would be handled by your CFI and completed as part of your training before the checkride.



You might want to check with insurers about your plan and see what they quote and what the restrictions are.

Like mentioned above, I’d look at a C150 or Cherokee and sell it for what I bought it for.

Find a CFI that will work with you on your schedule, otherwise, you just bought a paper weight. Also, have a backup or three available in case your primary CFI finds a new job.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer, much appreciated. Regarding some of the points you made:
1) I'll talk with my instructor this week and get his thoughts about whether this is something he can do. He mentioned before he can only teach in LSA, but I'll get the particulars on that.
2) Diamond DA40 is the specific model I'm looking at. Cirrus don't seem like great planes to learn in.
3) I'll chat with my insurer and see what their policy is. Re: the CFI... Right now I'm at a point where he's told me to just rack up more solo hours (only remaining lesson for us is night flying, which is hard to do with summer hours). Do you think it would be the same if I began flying my own plane, or would there likely be a somewhat involved training period before I'm able to fly solo in it? I'd definitely like to avoid the overpriced paperweight situation

Thanks again!

 

[IK04]

DA-40 is a good first plane and you can immediately begin flying it as part of your prep for the checkride and to finish off the required hours.

Your insurance will no doubt require the CFI to have a minimum number of hours in make and model, so there's that...

 

[TCABM]

Thanks for the comprehensive answer, much appreciated. Regarding some of the points you made:
1) I'll talk with my instructor this week and get his thoughts about whether this is something he can do. He mentioned before he can only teach in LSA, but I'll get the particulars on that.
2) Diamond DA40 is the specific model I'm looking at. Cirrus don't seem like great planes to learn in.
3) I'll chat with my insurer and see what their policy is. Re: the CFI... Right now I'm at a point where he's told me to just rack up more solo hours (only remaining lesson for us is night flying, which is hard to do with summer hours). Do you think it would be the same if I began flying my own plane, or would there likely be a somewhat involved training period before I'm able to fly solo in it? I'd definitely like to avoid the overpriced paperweight situation

Thanks again!

I would not be surprised if your insurance may require 10 - 25hrs dual instruction prior to you being allowed to solo.

Honestly, if you’ve just got night and checkride prep, I’d be working real hard with the school’s management to figure out a way to make that happen, since you don’t really want them to strong you out for several months for 3 hrs of training, and I’d be real clear about that. To the point of ‘How do we get this done in the next 30 days?”

 

[Juliet Hotel]

2) Diamond DA40 is the specific model I'm looking at. Cirrus don't seem like great planes to learn in.

What makes you think that?

 

[kath]

It sounds like your CFI might be one with a "Sport Pilot Rating" (CFI-S)? (You can ask him if this is the case.) To train in the DA40, you'll need one with a regular "Airplane/Single Engine" rating. The good news is there are a *lot* of CFI's who can do this; CFI-S's are more rare.

Don't let the fancy propeller throw off your plan. People get their initial training in all kinds of things, from bare-bones-no-electrical-system things to the latest greatest fancy modern things with powerful engines and glass panels. It's all good! A lot of the basics are the same no matter what. Learning all the new stuff will take some additional hours, but the important thing is that it's a plane you'll want to continue to fly after you get the PPL. Going for an instrument rating next? Then you'll want something you can do IFR training in. If it's a plane for the long-term, then however many extra hours to solo now will seem like peanuts later.

Good luck!

 

[Crashnburn]

Not asked, but important. Be sure to have a comprehensive pre-buy inspection before buying the plane, and have at least 1/3rd of the purchase price in reserve for gotcha's after you buy the plane. There are more knowledgeable folks here that can help you with the inspection info, and if there's a Diamond D40 type club, join that, if you haven't already.

 

[SkyDog58]

Welcome aboard.

Sit down and have a long talk with your CFI.

 

[lancie00]

*EDIT* I made and incorrect statement that I have removed thanks to @Palmpilot. Nothing to see here..... Move along.....

As already stated, you have to ask your CFI if they can teach in a certain plane and ask your school if they will let you do this.

14 CFR § 61.31
(e)Additional training required for operating complex airplanes.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane, unless the person has -

(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and

(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if -

(i) The person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex airplane, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August 4, 1997; or

(ii) The person has received ground and flight training under an approved training program and has satisfactorily completed a competency check under § 135.293 of this chapter in a complex airplane, or in a full flight simulator orflight training device that is representative of a complex airplane which must be documented in the pilot's logbook or training record.

 

[Rgbeard]

we have one seven-year student pilot on the board that owns his own 182.

The complex signoff must have been pretty easy for him.

 

[Palmpilot]

Legally I think you need 10 hours of instruction in a complex airplane to get the endorsement....

Note that the regulation you quoted says nothing about a ten-hour requirement. It's possible that it could be an insurance-company requirement, however.

 

[lancie00]

Note that the regulation you quoted says nothing about a ten-hour requirement. It's possible that it could be an insurance-company requirement, however.

You are correct. For some reason I was thinking that it took 10 hours. That must have been what it was when I got my complex endorsement. I'll go correct my post. Thanks

 

[kath]

The OP is looking at something with fixed gear. Hence not complex. (Unless he's putting the DA40 on floats!) No endorsement needed.

And the "10-hour thing" from the regs is related to the Commercial Certificate, not an endorsement.

 

[lancie00]

The OP is looking at something with fixed gear. Hence not complex. (Unless he's putting the DA40 on floats!) No endorsement needed.

And the "10-hour thing" from the regs is related to the Commercial Certificate, not an endorsement.

You are correct, I was thinking incorrectly. My bad. Thanks.

 

[Palmpilot]

The OP is looking at something with fixed gear. Hence not complex. (Unless he's putting the DA40 on floats!) No endorsement needed.

You're right. According to the definition in 61.1, if it's not a seaplane, controllable-pitch propeller and flaps is not enough to make it a complex airplane if it has fixed landing gear.

 

[chemgeek]

To be honest, I would keep my powder dry until you get your certificate. First, you will know a lot more about what kind of plane you might want for the near future after you complete your training, and learn more about the limitations of trainers. Second, if you have never owned an airplane before, you will discover that there is a significant time and financial investment in keeping a plane safe and operational. It will almost certainly be more affordable to rent than to own a plane for the first 2-3 years of ownership. Third, you will likely find that insurance will be considerably more expensive until you have completed your training. Finally, I believe there is some value in flying a few different aircraft during your primary training, if at all possible.

I started looking for aircraft immediately after earning my certificate, when I had more time to focus on the financial and maintenance aspects of ownership. I bought a fast, fun little 2-seater (AA-1A) for some time-building, then after a few years sold that and bought my current 4-seater (AA-5) for IFR training and longer-term ownership, a plane that I still own. Having flown several different types of aircraft in my primary training (Aeronca Champ, Citabria, C-172, Cherokee 140, in addition to mostly flying in a C-152) gave me a little better perspective on performance and maintenance issues when I was looking for my first time-building aircraft. And flying that time-builder for a few years gave me a better idea of what my typical mission might be, and what I might expect to afford to meet that typical mission. Although both of these planes were in pretty good condition when I bought them, they still took 2-3 years of extra maintenance to bring them up to my personal standards. (When owners sell, they usually do so with a significant amount of deferred maintenance that will get passed on to the next owner.)

YMMV. But most who have never owned an aircraft often grossly underestimate the cost of ownership. Ownership is mostly about convenience, not affordability.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Thanks everyone for the guidance here, it has been tremendously helpful. I've taken a couple steps and made some decisions based on the feedback I got.

Actions:
1) Talked to my insurance co (AVEMCO) to get time requirements. They said it isn't required to have a set number of hours before soloing in the plane if I bought one (for the models I gave them), it would only require CFI sign off. They consider the plane I'm training in and the ones I provided to be of the same category. They have all my up to date hours/training plane model/etc in their system -- so I assume they didn't provide misinformation. However, I will triple check before buying a plane.
2) Talked to my CFI and he was supportive of going to a different flight school to get experience in other planes (and getting night lessons), and said this should accelerate the completion of my hours so I can finish out PPL. I have a call with a nearby place tomorrow and will see if they can get me to the finish line in terms of lessons/instruction, and in a couple different planes. I will also check and see they would be willing to provide signoff/instruction in a plane, when I buy one -- per the insurance req's.
3) I'll postpone plane purchase and test out a few other aircraft (DA40, Cirrus SR22, C172, Piper Warrior are the candidates I'm setting up lessons in). I'll do a few hours in each and make sure that a DA40 is in fact the plane I'd be most happy with (right now). I think 3-4k in rental fees to be more reasonably sure that I'm getting the plane I want is a fair exchange. Regardless of the plane I get I'll be absolutely certain to get a thorough prebuy inspection.

Specific comments/feedback:
@Crashnburn : I'll expect 25-33% for any updates/maintenance post purchase -- just to bring it up to personal standards.
@kath : I won't let the CS prop scare me, which admittedly I was doing before! And you're absolutely correct, I don't plan to put a DA40 on floats to qualify it as complex
@chemgeek : Understood (particularly on the deferred maintenance piece). Your comments inspired me to do at least a few hours in several different types of planes. Even if it runs up the rental cost that could be a good way to avoid immediate purchase regret.
@Juliet Hotel : My "Cirrus isn't a great first plane" comments were based off conversations with CFIs and other pilots at the airfield I'm at. People seemed to view them as better planes for experienced pilots. I have 0 time in them so any information I have is purely parroted from others. I'm receptive to any differing opinions on Cirrus! (and I plan to get at least a couple hours in one with an instructor).
@Mike Smith and @chemgeek : Regarding the comments on C150 or Cherokee as first plane (buy it and sell it for same price) ... Given that the purchase process for a plane is more involved than buying a car, I would prefer to invest the time/energy in getting something I know I'll want 1+ years out. If I got a 150 (ugly + reliable), I know I'd already have wandering eyes on other planes. As shallow as it is, I guess I simply can't get excited about it? I'm comfortable taking more financial risk for something where I'm reasonably confident I'll be excited to fly it longer term.

Any other comments/pointers or counter-points are more than welcome!

Thanks again!
-Tom