Student Pilot has to sign a death disclosure on an intro flight?

FloridaPilot

FloridaPilot

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FloridaStudentPilot
Hello,

I'm trying out a new school and I went on an intro flight. Before going on the flight they made me sign a waiver stating that: "We are NOT responsible if you die in the airplane" Well, if they are not responsible then who is? I understand personal responsibility is at an all time low but I believe that is a little excessive. What do you folks think? Would that make you think otherwise about the school?
 
No an attorney but just because they make you sign something that's says they are not responsible does not mean that they cannot be found responsible.
 
Think I'd look for another school or independent CFI.
 
Seems reasonable to me. This is what happens in this lawyer driven world.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Hello,

I'm trying out a new school and I went on an intro flight. Before going on the flight they made me sign a waiver stating that: "We are NOT responsible if you die in the airplane" Well, if they are not responsible then who is? I understand personal responsibility is at an all time low but I believe that is a little excessive. What do you folks think? Would that make you think otherwise about the school?
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Well, you can either self insure, assume the risk of loss, or go somewhere else. As long as you go in with open eyes, this is a matter of personal preference. Maybe you would be better off getting plenty of life insurance and foregoing any effort to recover from the flight school in the event of a loss. Maybe your estate is big enough that your family doesn't need to sue for more money if you die. Maybe you have no heirs that would benefit from a payment in the event of your death. Of course, I have to give the usual caveat that I am not a licensed attorney in your state, and state laws vary with respect to the enforceability of liability waivers such that I can't tell you whether the waiver is enforceable, and if so, to what extent.
 
mulligan said:
No an attorney but just because they make you sign something that's says they are not responsible does not mean that they cannot be found responsible.
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Doesn't mean it's not enforceable, either.
 
I wouldn't be too concerned, those things are a dime a dozen nowadays.
 
Scare tactics. Its just additional cannon fodder for a frivolous suit, something they can point to in court for what good it will do.

If they make a gross mistake your bereaved's attorney would rip it to shreds.

I'm not a lawyer, but I own land everyone wants to hunt on and I have been made aware by my counsel that most hold harmless agreements are not worth the paper their written on. You should see the one he drew up for hunters on our place, it's ten pages and you have to initial beside each paragraph representing you read it. Even still I can be sued and lose, so we just said F it and stopped allowing hunters. Welcome to 2016.
 
James331 said:
I wouldn't be too concerned, those things are a dime a dozen nowadays.
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txflyer said:
Scare tactics. Its just additional cannon fodder for a frivolous suit, something they can point to in court for what good it will do.

If they make a gross mistake your bereaved's attorney would rip it to shreds.

I'm not a lawyer, but I own land everyone wants to hunt on and I have been made aware by my counsel that most hold harmless agreements are not worth the paper their written on. You should see the one he drew up for hunters on our place, it's ten pages and you have to initial beside each paragraph representing you read it. Even still I can be sued and lose, so we just said F it and stopped allowing hunters. Welcome to 2016.
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Don't dismiss such waivers out of hand. Sure, in some states they are not enforceable. But that's not true in all states.
 
In no state can you sign away some rights.

If your CFI straight tries to kill you, you loose a leg, I don't much care what you sign, the courts are going to eat that school alive.


Long and short if you're this concerned about folks trying to manage liability in our touchy feely sue happy society, perhaps just take up golf, come to think about it I think I even had to sign a waiver last time I played, something about golf balls being hard and hurting people lol
 
FloridaPilot said:
Hello,

I'm trying out a new school and I went on an intro flight. Before going on the flight they made me sign a waiver stating that: "We are NOT responsible if you die in the airplane" Well, if they are not responsible then who is? I understand personal responsibility is at an all time low but I believe that is a little excessive. What do you folks think? Would that make you think otherwise about the school?
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I think that waiver of liability is in the same category as the signs you see in grocery store parking lots..."not responsible for damage caused by our grocery carts'...worthless. if it worries you then find another school.
 
PPC1052 said:
Don't dismiss such waivers out of hand. Sure, in some states they are not enforceable. But that's not true in all states.
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If you're an attorney I might give it some weight, otherwise I'm sticking with what I've been told.

You can file anytime on anyone for anything, it doesn't mean you'll win, but you can file if a counselor will take it. In the case of an aircraft death, most will take it and run with it is my thought. The FS just better not have done anything wrong.

You have to realize if it goes to trial you have twelve street folks deciding. When plaintiff's attorney marches a string of people and kids sobbing and crying "they killed my Daddy!" in front of that jury, you don't know what's going to happen...
 
txflyer said:
If you're an attorney I might give it some weight, otherwise I'm sticking with what I've been told.
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Were you told by an attorney that a pre-suit waiver of liability is unenforceable in all 50 states? If not, then you have not been told anything that conflicts with what I am saying.

And just because this keeps coming up, and I keep trying to add the proper qualifications so people aren't misled, yes, I am a practicing civil defense attorney. I even defend aviation cases, if that matters to you. CIVIL TORT LAW IS DIFFERENT IN THE DIFFERENT STATES! I promise you in my state, if the release is written correctly, it will bar your negligence claims. I have won cases based on such releases.
 
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James331 said:
In no state can you sign away some rights.
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If by "some," you mean "all," I might agree. But you most definitely can sign away some of your rights in some states, including the right to sue for damages arising from negligence.

James331 said:
If your CFI straight tries to kill you, you loose a leg, I don't much care what you sign, the courts are going to eat that school alive.
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I haven't done the research, but I am pretty confident that you are correct that in no state would a pre-accident waiver would not apply to intentional conduct. But so what? We are talking about whether it's reasonable to sign a pre-accident waiver of liability. The chance your CFI would intentionally try to harm you doesn't really play into that calculus, does it?
 
"We are NOT responsible if you die in the airplane"

So if the instructor pulls a gun and shoots the student
So if the instructor feeds a peanut to the student with a peanut allergy
 
Yes, this is likely a covenant not to sue. It freaks everyone out, especially new students, and from my understanding is not enforceable in court, at least in the state of Michigan where I trained (and signed one).
 
OP, you can always try to find another school that does not require a death waiver, or you could take the waiver to your attorney and have it checked out. Strike offensive provisions and sign. Or if all provisions are objectionable, move on. I routinely strike out provisions I don't like and/or insert my own. If the party propounding an adhesion contract does not like it, well, move on. Or take your chances. But you're not powerless. I hope you find a school you like and enjoy your flight!
 
PPC1052 said:
Were you told by an attorney that a pre-suit waiver of liability is unenforceable in all 50 states? If not, then you have not been told anything that conflicts with what I am saying.

And just because this keeps coming up, and I keep trying to add the proper qualifications so people aren't misled, yes, I am a practicing civil defense attorney. I even defend aviation cases, if that matters to you. CIVIL TORT LAW IS DIFFERENT IN THE DIFFERENT STATES! I promise you in my state, if the release is written correctly, it will bar your negligence claims. I have won cases based on such releases.
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All right then, I should have qualified everything I said with "in Texas", no need to yell.

You are certainly more qualified than I am to floor this conversation.

The Texan takes a seat.
 
Bobanna said:
I'm not an attorney, but I understand hold-harmless agreements may be protective if all "reasonable" efforts are made to mitigate a peril. Of course, intentional or depraved acts probably wouldn't benefit from a signed indemnification. I am compelled to defer to the aviation lawyer (who must be very familiar with applicable case law in applicable jurisdictions) who states that an indemnification agreement provided protection; I would be very interested in the details and states in which the action proceeded. As for the OP: risk is ever-present in aviation, and your decision should be based on your judge-of-character regarding the instructor, the flight-school management, and your impression of the facility and aircraft. We want you to be safe, so ask around. Good luck.
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That
 
So if I sign an agreement not to sue if I get killed (how I would be able to sue when dead alludes me), would it be binding on my heirs or estate?
 
Just because you have someone sign a waiver doesn't mean their wife, kids, or other can't sue you they didn't sign it.
 
Such a form often seeks to bind your heirs and assigns.
 
DFH65 said:
Just because you have someone sign a waiver doesn't mean their wife, kids, or other can't sue you they didn't sign it.
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Doesn't mean they can, though. Again, laws vary from state to state.
 
I wouldn't freak out too much. The waiver may be something foisted upon the business by their lawyer / backer / something or other who they are beholden to in some way. My insurance company made me re-write my student rental agreement when I had an aircraft available for solo rental and pretty much told me what they wanted in the agreement.
 
That's true I did get in the plane, and I had a pretty good flight until the engine quit toward the end of the flight while taxiing, (That is for another post but the CFI left the AC on while we were idling). The reason why I asked the question is because I never had to sign anything like that in the past and it makes me believe that they don't trust their CFI's and Airplanes enough to stand by them.
 
I has to sign one when I went skydiving. Sign it, no harm no foul. Sometime stuff happens, and if your family is the type that sues, they can still attempt a lawsuit.
 
In case anyone actually cares... Here's an actual case in California dealing with assumption of the risk provisions in an equestrian context. Now, whether that does anything for aviation...well consult your own retained attorney. BUT, if I were a CFI, (which I am not) I would require any prospective student to sign an assumption of the risk for hazards related to ordinary (but not gross) negligence. Doesn't mean you'll avoid a lawsuit. Note that Nunnink, the trainer did not avoid a lawsuit but she did not lose the lawsuit. A big difference. Now the situation is tragic, but teaching someone to fly, skydive, show horses has many risks. The fact is getting second guessed on ordinary negligence is very easy by a jury in a sympathetic case. Exposing yourself to that risk...seems risky.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/archive/E057158.PDF
 
Liability waivers usually aren't worth the paper they're printed on. In some states the courts flat out refuse to recognize them as a valid legal agreement. In others if actual negligence or other neglect occurred the waiver likely won't hold up.

Doesn't stop business from trying to get you to sign them. Gotta keep the lawyers busy.
 
I would imagine it depends on whether they were negligent.
 
Death disclaimer: "We are not responsible if you die".
Death disclosure: "I am a Zombie".
 
PPC1052 said:
Were you told by an attorney that a pre-suit waiver of liability is unenforceable in all 50 states? If not, then you have not been told anything that conflicts with what I am saying.

And just because this keeps coming up, and I keep trying to add the proper qualifications so people aren't misled, yes, I am a practicing civil defense attorney. I even defend aviation cases, if that matters to you. CIVIL TORT LAW IS DIFFERENT IN THE DIFFERENT STATES! I promise you in my state, if the release is written correctly, it will bar your negligence claims. I have won cases based on such releases.
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Don't forget to mention that in states where waivers are enforceable, many cases with a well-written one won't even get to a jury (not so sure about one that just says, "we are not responsible if you die" :D).

But don't yell. You'll just aggravate yourself needlessly. Next time the question comes up there will be at least a dozen posts from folks saying they are always unenforceable. Just like it's happened the last couple of hundred times.
 
Kritchlow said:
I would imagine it depends on whether they were negligent.
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in states where they are enforceable, it usually depends on how negligent. In most if not all "waiver friendly" states, intentional acts and acts of "gross negligence" can't be waived. But "ordinary" negligence can be waived.

"Ordinary" and "gross" negligence are legal jargon with definitions. For a mental aviation example picture, I'd say it's the difference between a bad landing on a normal approach and a bad landing while attempting an inverted approach in a 172 if the waiver was in connection with a typical introductory flight lesson.
 
If I'm dead, how the heck am I going to sue anyway?

On the other hand my wife can sue the pants off them. SHE didn't sign a thing and I can't sign away her right to sue. In fact, the paper saying that they won't be responsible could be presented as a negative in their court case. Did they EXPECT me to die in their airplane? Are their airplanes less safe than other airplanes? What kind of maintenance issues did they defer and for how long? Did they think their instructor wasn't that good? What kind of incidents have they had in the past?

Besides, I'm sure she will be able to demonstrate it wasn't my signature.
 
See post 27. The form generally says it binds your estate, you heirs and assigns. As midlife and some of the others have noted, these agreements sometimes hold up in court. The widow's case gets dismissed.
 
Circuit Flyer said:
See post 27. The form generally says it binds your estate, you heirs and assigns. As midlife and some of the others have noted, these agreements sometimes hold up in court. The widow's case gets dismissed.
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Not really. Family is free to sue away. Rarely, if ever, do these waivers protect against legit claims. They may help a bit with "nusanse" lawsuits but again many states out there don't even recognize the concept of a liability waiver so it will never see the light of day in a courtroom.

If the mechanic at the FBO signed off an airplane that was not airworthy and that contributes to a crash or a flight with a CFI acting as PIC on board runs out of fuel no "liability waiver" is going to stop the successful lawsuits from flowing in. One can't sign away the right to seek compensation for gross negligence.
 
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