Stuck in Knoxville - but it could be worse.

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
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White Chocolate
I don't really know if this qualifies as a never again, since I don't really think there's anything I could have done differently to prevent it...


There I was...

Ok, not really. I took off from Hastings, MI yesterday around noonish and climbed up through the 800' thick layer, and got on top of the clouds, and enjoyed a ever so slight tailwind for the beginning of the flight to CRG (Jacksonville, FL) with a stop at 1A6 for $3.85 100LL in extreme southeastern Kentucky. Nifty little place, nice (deserted) FBO with slightly stale Tootsie Rolls. Tricky landing and departure with the winds, and with a bit less HP, it would have been a cirlcing climb to depart the field to the west to get out of the end of the valley it's tucked in. I had checked the weather at CRG while there and I would have had to probably file IFR to get in, or at least get a pop up clearance once closer. I climbed out of the valley, and reset my destination in the 430 to CRG from TYS (Knoxville, TN).

I was originally going to head to TYS and spend the night, and then finish the flight in the morning, but then I figured nah, lets just get there, it shouldn't be much past dusk, when I arrive, and then I am already there. Then I saw my GS and time enroute to CRG, and decided I didn't feel like flying instruments, and dealing with the rain they were predicting, plus I was kinda tired for some reason, so I dialed TYS back in and headed to Knoxville - about a 20 minute flight and parked the plane. The counter folks got a hotel room for me across the street. After walking to grab a bite to eat at Ruby Tuesday, I called it a night.

Headed back to the airport, and checked out from TACAir, where they raped :rolleyes: me for a $10 overnight fee because I didn't buy fuel. I was expecting $30, so that was a bonus. I waited around the FBO for a while just to make sure I gave the fog time to lift in Jacksonville, and then headed out to preflight. I popped the cowl open and gave everything a bit more of a detailed look than I normally do for some reason. Checked everything twice, and a couple things even three times. Climb in, put the flight plan in the 430, and the FL150, and then climb back out of the plane one more time to give it another once over. Ok, everything looks good.

Fire up the engine, and everything seems ok. I call up clearance delivery, and get my IFR to CRG. At bigger airports, I tend to do my runups on the ramp just so that in case something is wrong I don't have to taxi so far back to have it looked at. I increase RPM to 1500, and do a mag check. Yep, RPM drop good. Now to cycle the prop. For whatever reason my habit is always pull it from 1500, and watch the RPM guage first, and listen for the pitch change. Hmmm, that was a slower pitch change than usual. Cycle it again and look at the oil pressure guage - WAAAAAAY to the left, and well below green. Hmmmm, that doesn't make sense, I wonder what's wrong with the prop. I sit there for a couple more seconds, and decide I should probably shut the engine down. I'm gonna be cheesed off if my prop governor has gone out. Then I rethink things, and realize that isn't going to be the issue. I climb out of the plane, and as after I walk around to the front of the plane, I see this. Well, that's not going to be good.

I walk back to TACAir, and they call one of the maintenance shops on the field, and a guy named Jeremy looks at my plane. We determine it's coming from one of the oild cooler hoses, or the oil cooler itself, but since everything is covered with oil inside the cowling (there was absolutley no outside oil spray) we couldn't tell. So we pull the cowl off, check the fitting, and he's saying something doesn't feel right as he tightens it up. I'm now worried that I've vented enough oil that I might have damaged the engine. Well, after checking the oil level, talking to my mechanic, and Jeremy we determine that I'm in the clear there. (Whew!) We put a couple quarts back in after reconnecting the hose, and crank it over with the mags off, just to put some pressure in the system. Well, it's not the fitting, the oil is pushing out through the cooler itself. We wiggle the hose a little, and definitely see the cooler flexing in a way it shouldn't.

When I had looked at the cooler and hoses during preflight, it was absolutely bone dry, and zero trace of any oil leakage from the cooler, or hoses, or anything else in the compartment. Had I decided to head to CRG instead of TYS last night, it could have probably been catastrophic engine failure about 25 minutes out of 1A6, right in the middle of the Smokeys. Go ahead and plot the crash spot on Google Maps if you like. A few miles SW of Snowbird VOR. Latitude: N35 38.362' Longitude: W83 22.919' seems about right.

New oil cooler being overnighted from RamAir in Waco, and hopefully, I'm airborne tomorrow. Unfortunately at this point, I've missed 2/3 of what I was going to FL for, and will probably just head back home tomorrow.
 
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Glad you found the problem on the ground Ed. Sorry it messed up your plans and pocket book. I too had an oil cooler problem a couple of years back with a crack where the hose attached. But that was caused by a mechanic over tightening it. I found out I had a leak in the air, thankfully it was a small leak and happened close to my home airport. Because it was a new oil cooler and was an obvious mistake on the mechanics part they fixed it for free. I did not even have to ask them.
 
Yeah, this wasn't a small leak. With as little oil as was left in the system it was still able to generate a pitch change. As quick as everything vented, I'm pretty sure I would have been chewing metal by the time the prop flattened out. Actually, Ramair had a PMA'd oil cooler for $244 - brand new. A lot better than the $946 for a Piper made one we first found.
 
Man, if I wasn't doing some stuff with the family, I'd come and have a beer with you...just up the road about 20 miles from TYS.
 
Man, if I wasn't doing some stuff with the family, I'd come and have a beer with you...just up the road about 20 miles from TYS.

Depending on the weather tomorrow, I may be here another night. Not sure I feel like punching through a cold front.
 
Yeah, this wasn't a small leak. With as little oil as was left in the system it was still able to generate a pitch change. As quick as everything vented, I'm pretty sure I would have been chewing metal by the time the prop flattened out. Actually, Ramair had a PMA'd oil cooler for $244 - brand new. A lot better than the $946 for a Piper made one we first found.


I would be celebrating that a potential disaster was avoided. Congrats Ed!
 
Depending on the weather tomorrow, I may be here another night. Not sure I feel like punching through a cold front.

Weather here's gonna be fantastic this weekend...

I might be heading down to the airport in the aft...
 
Weather here's gonna be fantastic this weekend...

I might be heading down to the airport in the aft...

Which is where I will be waiting for my plane to be buttoned up. At.....uh...whatever the shop is that shared the hangar with Smoky Mountain flight center.

Probably won't get out till later in the day.
 
Next time file a flight plan.:wink2:

Well you recall my response from this afternoon. Thank G-d it happened on the Ground!! Indeed cause to celebrate that the only thing that got broke was a piece of metal.
 
Next time file a flight plan.:wink2:

Well you recall my response from this afternoon. Thank G-d it happened on the Ground!! Indeed cause to celebrate that the only thing that got broke was a piece of metal.

I did file a flight plan! IFR even.

TYS-HRS-AMG-CRG. Had even gotten my clearance. Then had to call CD back, and cancel it.
 
Yikes, that's a lotta oil you puked out there! :hairraise:

Again, glad you found it on the ground, and not over, say, Lake Michigan or something. ;) ;)
 
Holy ____ that is the best Never Again I have heard yet. Only $244 for a repair and you are on your way. Surely that will happen, never again!
 
WOW!! Lady luck was on your side on that decision to stop and overnight! That much oil, that fast, was not going to leave you any options. Glad the FBO was cooperative and a mechanic was availible to get it fixed. Is the oil cooler original? Were you able to find out a potential cause? - broken bracket, failed weld or tube?

Gary
 
Wow. I overnighted at Knoxville's Downtown Island Airport to duck out of storms. Nice place. I take it all back.
 
Holy ____ that is the best Never Again I have heard yet. Only $244 for a repair and you are on your way. Surely that will happen, never again!


Eds still lucky but hold your horses on the $244.00 Just got a call from Ed and the installed the new oil cooler put minimal oil in to test a they were gonna do a filter change as well. Ed Cranked it over and in 30 second oil was comming out all over the new cooler which apparently is now going to join the other one in the scrap heap. Consensus between the local A&Ps and Eds back home is that there is a blockage somewhere in the oil system which is gonna take a few days to diganose and locate. It could be a (vernatherm) sp bascially as ed described it a thermostate like valve that regulates oil flow and it could have konked out shut or gotten jamed or what ever. So Ed is enjoying the country side from about 3.5 feet altitude has he drives the 10 hours back to Caledonia Michigan. Ugh. Such is GA right?

And we should all remember that regardless of what a PIA this is Ed is still damn fortunate!:cheerswine:
 
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I talked to 3 different A&Ps and a Lycoming destruction engineer today. I have more than 4 different possibilities of what it could be. After the new cooler blew out this morning, I got a rental car and drove home from Knoxville. Left the keys and the plane at the shop, and told em when they figure it out and fix it, I will come back down and get it.

For the record, the entire state of Ohio, and its drivers should be removed from existence. Every car that was doing something stupid on the way back, starting 4 miles outside of Knoxville had an Ohio plate. When I crossed the Ohio River I went from doing 80 to doing 8. That many stupid people in one place, it's bound to cause problems. No joke, I was barely past the welcome to ohio sign (as in a matter of feet), and it was Idiotsville. I made it from TYS to the Ohio River in 3 hours and change. It then took another 2 hours to go 48 miles with all the morons sporting Ohio plates. Even after I got out of that void of intelligence and into Indiana, and then Michigan, the cars causing problems on the roads....Ohio plates.
 
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Here's a simplified schematic for the oil system of an 0-360. The -540 is going to be similar.

LycOil.jpg


Personally, I think it is unlikely a "stuck" Vernatherm alone can cause an overpressure condition in the cooler. I think it is more likely an inoperative oil pressure relief valve, or partial blockage of the circuit upstream of the relief valve (filter and bypass), or its outlet to the sump, could result in an overpressure condition. Not that common.

The exact point of leakage wasn't specified in the posts. It could come from the cooler housing itself or a cracked oil cooler fitting connected to it. It's not unheard of to have the tapered pipe fitting over-tightened when replacing hoses (or coolers), which leads to crack propagation. Or the leakage could originate in a failed hose inside a firesleeve and appear to come from a fitting.

Just my 2¢
 
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For the record, the entire state of Ohio, and it's occupants should be removed from existence.

For the record, we don't like you very much, either. Hope your airplane has a long, enjoyable stay in Knoxville.

-Mike Massimini
-Cincinnati, Ohio
 
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Thanks for the schematic Steve, I was trying to picture how the oil flowed. It looks like the oil was coming out of one of the vanes in the new cooler but it can't be certain. Two separate A&Ps independently said the vernatherm, another doubted it was, and a fourth engine specialist mentioned a bunch of possibilities. We will wait and see.

Mike under 3.5 hours from Knoxville to the Ohio River, two hours to get to mile marker 48. I'm just saying.
 
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Well Ed I guess all the idiot Michigan drivers must have been in Detroit and Ann Arbor yesterday, causing multiple wrecks on I-94. It took me 45 minutes to go from M-10 to the Gratiot exit (about 5 miles) and would have taken a lot longer if I had stayed on the freeway. There was an accident a half mile east of M-10 and another between Van Dyke and Gratiot, and I heard reports on the radio about another one between State St. and US-23 out in Ann Arbor. I'll never understand how people can have so much trouble driving down a DRY road with gradual curves and no stoplights without running into things or each other.
 
I'll never understand how people can have so much trouble driving down a DRY road with gradual curves and no stoplights without running into things or each other.

I'll give you a hint:

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Worst I ever saw: Newspaper draped over the steering wheel, legal pad on lap, laptop in pax seat, phone in left hand, pen in right hand writing on legal pad. No hands for the wheel and no eyes for the road. No brain either.
 

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Damn Ed. If I hadn't been out of town, and you had come here instead, you might have been stuck in Winston.

Or not made it here at all! Yikes!
 
Or not made it here at all! Yikes!

That's what I was thinking - I would hate to have been waiting at the airport to pick Ed up and him be a no-show for something like that!!
 
I know, Kent, I just don't understand how people can be so utterly stupid as to drive in heavy traffic like that. They're every bit as impaired as if they were under the influence. The city where my plane is based now has an ordinance against distracted driving -- you can be pulled over for so much as using a cellphone while driving. It went into effect first of the year. I'm waiting to see how much of an effect it will have on the accident rate. But it's limited to a 6 miles square area. Really needs to be statewide.

And Ed, I didn't say it before, but sorry about your plane. I hope they're able to diagnose it quickly and that it's not too expensive a repair. And that there aren't too many idiots on the roads when you drive back down there.
 
I know, Kent, I just don't understand how people can be so utterly stupid as to drive in heavy traffic like that. They're every bit as impaired as if they were under the influence. The city where my plane is based now has an ordinance against distracted driving -- you can be pulled over for so much as using a cellphone while driving. It went into effect first of the year. I'm waiting to see how much of an effect it will have on the accident rate. But it's limited to a 6 miles square area. Really needs to be statewide.

So far, they've found that texting-while-driving laws INCREASE the chance of accidents. This does not surprise me - The folks who blatantly text while driving at least have the road in their peripheral vision. The laws don't stop them - They simply try to hide it, and then the road isn't in ANY part of their vision. :frown2:
 
I know, Kent, I just don't understand how people can be so utterly stupid as to drive in heavy traffic like that. They're every bit as impaired as if they were under the influence. The city where my plane is based now has an ordinance against distracted driving -- you can be pulled over for so much as using a cellphone while driving. It went into effect first of the year. I'm waiting to see how much of an effect it will have on the accident rate. But it's limited to a 6 miles square area. Really needs to be statewide.

And Ed, I didn't say it before, but sorry about your plane. I hope they're able to diagnose it quickly and that it's not too expensive a repair. And that there aren't too many idiots on the roads when you drive back down there.

As of May 1, 2010 it is. Well not the cell phone, but using a gps, mp3 player, texting, etc, if not permanently attached to the vehicle is a ticketable offense. $100 or something like that for the 1st offense.
 
Next step: prohibit moving map GPS in airplanes. That will take care of the epidemic of distracted aviating!
 
Thanks for the schematic Steve, I was trying to picture how the oil flowed...

If there is an actual overpressure condition, something is interfering with the relief valve operation (just stating the obvious).

Lycoming has a trouble-shooting guide that includes the symptom of high oil pressure

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/troubleshooting/resources/Trouble-Shooting-Guide.pdf

One thing it suggests is

Remove pressure relief from engine and run a soft copper wire down through oil passage to sump; if blockage is found, remove same. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]NOTE: [/FONT][/FONT]If blockage persists, sump may have to be removed to clear passage.

which indicates to me they've seen that problem before.

I'd have the condition of the relief valve spring and ball checked while it was off, too, unless your engine has one of the old external adjustable type reliefs. Then you might want to get a replacement instead futzing around with the old one.
 
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As of May 1, 2010 it is. Well not the cell phone, but using a gps, mp3 player, texting, etc, if not permanently attached to the vehicle is a ticketable offense. $100 or something like that for the 1st offense.
I knew about the no-texting law, but didn't think it covered all the other stuff. Specifically I don't think it says anything about the device having to be permanently installed in the car. That sounds more like an FAA type thing.

Actually I just looked it up, and it's even more limited than I thought:

A person shall not read, manually type, or send a text message on a wireless 2-way communication device that is located in the person's hand or in the person's lap, including a wireless telephone used in cellular telephone service or personal communication service, while operating a motor vehicle that is moving on a highway or street in this state.

I don't think it would even apply to a Kindle, technically, nor a portable Garmin, since neither is a 2-way communication device. It doesn't even require hands-free cellphone operation as long as you aren't reading something or typing/texting on it.
 
I knew about the no-texting law, but didn't think it covered all the other stuff. Specifically I don't think it says anything about the device having to be permanently installed in the car. That sounds more like an FAA type thing.

Actually I just looked it up, and it's even more limited than I thought:

I don't think it would even apply to a Kindle, technically, nor a portable Garmin, since neither is a 2-way communication device. It doesn't even require hands-free cellphone operation as long as you aren't reading something or typing/texting on it.

It doesn't apply to emailing either, which is what I suspect those prone to texting will change to to comply with the new "law".
 
It doesn't apply to emailing either, which is what I suspect those prone to texting will change to to comply with the new "law".

Ummm... Sounds like emailing on a smartphone or whatever would be covered by it, to me:

A person shall not read, manually type, or send a text message on a wireless 2-way communication device that is located in the person's hand or in the person's lap, including a wireless telephone used in cellular telephone service or personal communication service, while operating a motor vehicle that is moving on a highway or street in this state.

Note the "or" after "manually type".
 
Ummm... Sounds like emailing on a smartphone or whatever would be covered by it, to me:

A person shall not read, manually type, or send a text message on a wireless 2-way communication device that is located in the person's hand or in the person's lap, including a wireless telephone used in cellular telephone service or personal communication service, while operating a motor vehicle that is moving on a highway or street in this state.

Note the "or" after "manually type".
Yeah, but it appears to be modifying "text message". If it was intended the way you are reading it, it would have been clearer and less ambiguous to have written it
A person shall not
send a text message, read, or manually type on a wireless 2-way communication device that is located in the person's hand or in the person's lap, including a wireless telephone used in cellular telephone service or personal communication service, while operating a motor vehicle that is moving on a highway or street in this state.
 
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