Strong Gusty Headwind + Me = Too Much Float - HOW TO IMPROVE?

[James331]

I get the point you are trying to make, but 500FPM may be a little high!

That!


Use flaps, if you're going to crash, crash slow.

You can also take the flaps out too, they are a tool, not just a rote thing which can only be subtracted after you're clear the active

 

[Shepherd]

I have been known to carry a little extra speed, then once I am close to touchdown, SLOWLY raise the flaps, as soon as the wheels touch, raise the flaps completely.

 

[jordane93]

I'm not sure I like configuration changes a few feet above the runway

 

[MAKG1]

I land with 10 degree flaps and about 75 kts (normally 70) in 172 SP under gusty conditions, which is pretty common here. I do balloon in most of my landings... gusty or not :d:d .. I think the tower guys now call me balloon king

You sure those are knots and not MPH?

I approach at 60 knots in 172s. Plus half the gust factor if appropriate.

Plus, you have flaps for a reason. FULL flaps.

You're fast and low-drag. You'll float into the next county. That's why you balloon.

 

[MAKG1]

That!


Use flaps, if you're going to crash, crash slow.

You can also take the flaps out too, they are a tool, not just a rote thing which can only be subtracted after you're clear the active

Depends on the plane. I don't think it's possible to retract flaps in a 182T before leaving the runway, unless you suck them up on final. Those suckers are SLOW.

 

[AU_James]

I'm glad I'm not alone with the gusty landing issue. Sunday I was considering not flying due to the forecast winds but as the day came the winds were less than forecast and from a direction more in line with the runway. I took off from rwy 25 with winds 220@11- no problem. I landed at KPCW on rwy 18 with winds 210@11- no problem (though I think the winds were a bit more variable than that).

I get back home, AWOS is saying 190@11G19 for rwy 25 again. I personally know that I can handle a 14kt crosswind in the archer and felt comfortable enough, but I completely forgot about adding speed for gust factor (Sunday put me just over 70 hrs total). I used full flaps but used my same target airspeed and knew my ground speed wasn't very fast. As I cross the threshold I feel a large gust as I take out power and I don't react in time, so I push the throttle up and go around. Second approach is very stable and I'm very happy, then as I'm nearing the threshold there's another large gust that I'm prepared for this time. I stay lined up, but then I hear the stall horn when I'm nowhere near close enough to land so I add power, I then balloon slightly, control power, level off and float down and land firmly (at least it was left main, right main, nose for what it's worth).

I was beating myself up for not going around again, but at the same time I was so happy to be on the ground and I didn't break the plane. It was 100% my most challenging landing I've accomplished in my short time as a pilot. I have a lot more crosswind practice to do, and thanks for reminding me to add some airspeed for gusts. I do believe I'll stick with full flaps though unless I'm coming into a very long runway.

 

[Clip4]

If you the wind is 18G25 and you catch that 7 kt gust as are in the flare, there is not much you can do other than ride it out.

The other day I was landing with winds straight up the runway 18G25kts flying a Cessna 172. Went to flare and floated quite a bit, much longer than I would have liked and struggled to prevent her from ballooning up. The landing ended smoothly, but I would like to know what I should have done differently. I didnt go full flaps and added 5kts to my approach speed to account for the gusts/strong headwind

Thoughts?


Configuration:

• Flaps 20 degrees (30 degree restriction on plane for 180HP motor)
• Approach speed @ threshold 70kts (added 5kts for gusts, normally 65kts)

 

[jordane93]

I'm glad I'm not alone with the gusty landing issue. Sunday I was considering not flying due to the forecast winds but as the day came the winds were less than forecast and from a direction more in line with the runway. I took off from rwy 25 with winds 220@11- no problem. I landed at KPCW on rwy 18 with winds 210@11- no problem (though I think the winds were a bit more variable than that).

I get back home, AWOS is saying 190@11G19 for rwy 25 again. I personally know that I can handle a 14kt crosswind in the archer and felt comfortable enough, but I completely forgot about adding speed for gust factor (Sunday put me just over 70 hrs total). I used full flaps but used my same target airspeed and knew my ground speed wasn't very fast. As I cross the threshold I feel a large gust as I take out power and I don't react in time, so I push the throttle up and go around. Second approach is very stable and I'm very happy, then as I'm nearing the threshold there's another large gust that I'm prepared for this time. I stay lined up, but then I hear the stall horn when I'm nowhere near close enough to land so I add power, I then balloon slightly, control power, level off and float down and land firmly (at least it was left main, right main, nose for what it's worth).

I was beating myself up for not going around again, but at the same time I was so happy to be on the ground and I didn't break the plane. It was 100% my most challenging landing I've accomplished in my short time as a pilot. I have a lot more crosswind practice to do, and thanks for reminding me to add some airspeed for gusts. I do believe I'll stick with full flaps though unless I'm coming into a very long runway.

Keep practicing! Never force the plane on the ground. That's how we bend metal. Spend a few extra minutes and go around. Keep working it!

 

[WannFly]

You sure those are knots and not MPH?

I approach at 60 knots in 172s. Plus half the gust factor if appropriate.

Plus, you have flaps for a reason. FULL flaps.

You're fast and low-drag. You'll float into the next county. That's why you balloon.

kts. i have never landed with full flaps when the winds are gusty above 15. most times i fly its gusting 18G25 or higher with mid chops and the airspeed fluctuates about 8 kts when i am in final. i am not sure shooting for 60 under those conditions would be the rt things thing to do. but i am a low time student, just saying what i am being taught.. no idea about right or wrong.

 

[Harold Rutila]

60 knots in a C172 is 1.3 x Vso (the stall speed in landing configuration*), which is an ideal approach speed calculation for most GA airplanes. Adding 5-7 knots on top of that to account for gusts is a great idea.

There are two factors I look at when assessing pilots' landings during flight reviews and task-specific training (like with someone who wants help handling winds). The first is speed management. Usually any approach speeds in excess of 1.5 x Vso are going to cause problems because being more than 50% above stall speed (which is what 1.5 x Vso tells us) requires a lot of energy to be bled off over the runway before touchdown.

The second is pitch attitude on final. The nose should be slightly low. We should be able to see the runway numbers while approaching the runway at the target speed. If the nose is high and the power is fairly high (~ cruise RPM range) these are signs of a too-low, too-slow approach.

When you get over the runway, the key is to be patient with the airplane. Don't try to force it down. Any fast pitch-forward motions on the yoke while over the runway are indicative of impatience, and this is also how nose-first and flat landings generally start to occur. This is why most CFIs have their hands behind the yoke during landing practice; we're trying to prevent you from suddenly pushing the yoke forward.

Look down the runway. As you pitch up, if you see the airplane start to climb, you still have too much energy for touchdown -- so you try again, patiently, until the airplane is ready to settle onto the pavent on the main gear first.

*This assumes stall speed in the particular C172 in its landing configuration is 45 KIAS, which I believe is accurate.

 

[WannFly]

from the 172SP POH.

under normal conditions, landing speed 65. may be add the 5-7 knt gust factor?

 

[MAKG1]

from the 172SP POH.

under normal conditions, landing speed 65. may be add the 5-7 knt gust factor?

View attachment 52687

Three comments:

1. That's for max gross weight. Are you flying at max gross? Stall speed goes down as sqrt(M), and so should the approach speeds.

2. If you want to minimize float and ballooning, use the SHORT field numbers. I believe that's 61 KIAS for most 172s, with full flap.

3. It's prudent to add HALF the gust factor to #2. No more. Every knot you add will increase your float and keep you close to the ground longer.

It's very, very easy for a student pilot to go overboard under the assumption that more speed is safer. It's not. Good landings are slow landings. The point of adding half the gust factor is just in case a gust of wind quits while you're in the flare.

 

[WannFly]

Three comments:

1. That's for max gross weight. Are you flying at max gross? Stall speed goes down as sqrt(M), and so should the approach speeds.

2. If you want to minimize float and ballooning, use the SHORT field numbers. I believe that's 61 KIAS for most 172s, with full flap.

3. It's prudent to add HALF the gust factor to #2. No more. Every knot you add will increase your float and keep you close to the ground longer.

It's very, very easy for a student pilot to go overboard under the assumption that more speed is safer. It's not. Good landings are slow landings.

Thanks much. yeah i have to get faster is better out of my head

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks much. yeah i have to get faster is better out of my head

Every student pilot does.

The airplane handles better at high speed. It's uncomfortable to slow it down just above the ground.

 

[WannFly]

Every student pilot does.

The airplane handles better at high speed. It's uncomfortable to slow it down just above the ground.

spot on. landings have been pretty stressing for me, primarily because i am maneuvering so close to the ground. i have no problems doing slow flight and i am within +-5 kts target speed and <5 degree bank angle and maintain Alt when high up, things completely change when i am 100 ft above the ground. guess more landings and may be flying close the ground will help? i have seen some people just flying over the runway at 50 ft on YT videos, i will bring it up with my CFI and see what he says

 

[Stewartb]

My cabin strip has a 15' wide surface and is subject to mechanical turbulence from tall trees on all sides. Crossing winds are the norm. I always use full flaps. As the winds pick up I fly a shorter final at a steeper angle. Always at the same target airspeed. If I lose lift from turbulence or a gust I lower the nose to counter it. Maintain target speed and adjust altitude with power. I never add speed or reduce flaps because I make more precise landings my way. It's how short field ops are flown. The textbook short field technique doesn't have a wind amendment. Even on longer runways I've never found a reason to land faster. I will extend my touchdown point further downfield but the technique is the same.

 

[MAKG1]

spot on. landings have been pretty stressing for me, primarily because i am maneuvering so close to the ground. i have no problems doing slow flight and i am within +-5 kts target speed and <5 degree bank angle and maintain Alt when high up, things completely change when i am 100 ft above the ground. guess more landings and may be flying close the ground will help? i have seen some people just flying over the runway at 50 ft on YT videos, i will bring it up with my CFI and see what he says

Well, 50 feet to start maybe. But 5 feet would be better. 1 foot even better. Ground effect matters.

IMO, it makes it even more uncomfortable to keep the flaps up. That gives you a pronounced nose up attitude early, and you won't be able to see the runway very well when flying over it just above the ground.

I suspect your instructor is doing that to reduce the flat landings, as it gets the nose up right away. But the sight picture is problematic.

 

[WannFly]

Well, 50 feet to start maybe. But 5 feet would be better. 1 foot even better. Ground effect matters.

IMO, it makes it even more uncomfortable to keep the flaps up. That gives you a pronounced nose up attitude early, and you won't be able to see the runway very well when flying over it just above the ground.

I suspect your instructor is doing that to reduce the flat landings, as it gets the nose up right away. But the sight picture is problematic.

i will float the flying 5 ft over runway with him next time i am there. not flying this week, scheduling is becoming a problem with the good weather coming in... now i wish it was -20 outside

 

[James331]

I'm not sure I like configuration changes a few feet above the runway

But you change your aleron, rudder, elevator and throttle settings just over runway, why should another surface be different?

Understand your tools and use every one available.

Depends on the plane. I don't think it's possible to retract flaps in a 182T before leaving the runway, unless you suck them up on final. Those suckers are SLOW.

The Johnson bar flaps are king when it comes to that trick for sure, but electrics can benefit too if you go flaps 0 right as you touch down, depending on speed and other factors of course.

 

[jordane93]

But you change your aleron, rudder, elevator and throttle settings just over runway, why should another surface be different?

Understand your tools and use every one available.

Could be a good way to raise the gear handle by mistake or smack into the runway while your messing with the flaps.

 

[MAKG1]

The Johnson bar flaps are king when it comes to that trick for sure, but electrics can benefit too if you go flaps 0 right as you touch down, depending on speed and other factors of course.

If you go to flaps zero right at touchdown, they will still be coming up when you exit the runway, in a 182T.

They are stunningly slow.

 

[James331]

Could be a good way to raise the gear handle by mistake or smack into the runway while your messing with the flaps.

All the planes I fly right now are RGs of some sort, and frankly I have zero idea how you could raise the gear by accident, I hear that line all the time and aside from a very small minority of RGs, it's just not based on facts.

Double true with Johnson bar planes.

 

[jordane93]

All the planes I fly right now are RGs of some sort, and frankly I have zero idea how you could raise the gear by accident, I hear that line all the time and aside from a very small minority of RGs, it's just not based on facts.

Double true with Johnson bar planes.

Still a small minority chance it will happen. I'd rather be 100% sure I won't reach for it inadvertently than 99.99999%

 

[Stewartb]

In my old Hawk XP I'd flip the flap switch up at about 15' AGL. Touchdown was positive. In the 180 I dump flaps immediately at touchdown when the winds are a concern. Doing so makes the tail drop and loads the mains to allow better braking. By dumping I mean I release flaps from 40 to 10, which I can do without leaning forward. 40 to 10 is plenty effective.

 

[Shepherd]

I'm not sure I like configuration changes a few feet above the runway

Every time you move the controls you are doing a configuration change.
Carrying extra speed helps maintain forward momentum in the gusts. Lifting the flaps slightly just before you touch, raises the landing speed. Bringing the flaps up on touchdown insures you don't lift off again in a gust and helps with floating.
It's just another skill.

 

[James331]

Still a small minority chance it will happen. I'd rather be 100% sure I won't reach for it inadvertently than 99.99999%

You're more likely to loose directional control due to being in that in between from flying mode to taxi mode, than accidentally pulling the gear vs flaps.

For safety reasons, in major gusts/winds I'll be 0ing my flaps

 

[azblackbird]

Is this one of those of "keep flying the plane until you're tied down" instances?

 

[FastEddieB]

A point I've made before.

Fairly long flying career as a pilot and instructor, in a fairly wide range of GA aircraft and into and out of all sorts of paved and unpaved runways.

I have never, to my recollection, raised the flaps right after touchdown. I try to fly like I teach and its wise to teach to what the FAA wants - which is not touch anything until stopped clear of the runway.

I'll stipulate there might be some very small benefit to raising flaps right after landing in certain extreme or "edge" cases. But totally not necessary for the vast majority of pilots the vast majority of the time. I think futzing around in the cockpit in the landing rollout causes far more problems than lifting the flaps might help.

 

[Hank S]

After several years in my little taildragger I have come to a point where I don't fool with flaps very often, gusts of no gusts. My first Mooney instructor had me landing with full flaps. I flew with a different Mooney instructor in gusty and rough air and he had me landing and taking off with no flaps. Still experimenting with flaps in the Mooney, only because slower on the runway might be easier on tires and landing gear.

Hey, Diagonal. I usually drop Takeoff Flaps on or before downwind, and add more on final if needed to maintain the proper final approach angle (but not until after I reduce power further). That's part of the beauty of infinitely variable flaps, I can add or subtract in very small increments with a touch of the switch.

Besides, as low as our wings are to the runway, extra speed and extra flaps just increase ground effect much more. I can hold the throttle to idle and extend a single finger to raise the flaps, decreasing lift from the wind and putting weight on the brakes to slow down and the nose wheel to steer.

 

[MAKG1]

A point I've made before.

Fairly long flying career as a pilot and instructor, in a fairly wide range of GA aircraft and into and out of all sorts of paved and unpaved runways.

I have never, to my recollection, raised the flaps right after touchdown. I try to fly like I teach and its wise to teach to what the FAA wants - which is not touch anything until stopped clear of the runway.

I'll stipulate there might be some very small benefit to raising flaps right after landing in certain extreme or "edge" cases. But totally not necessary for the vast majority of pilots the vast majority of the time. I think futzing around in the cockpit in the landing rollout causes far more problems than lifting the flaps might help.

I got my hand slapped by the examiner during my private pilot exam for this.

The FAA wants two things here. They want you not to touch flaps on the runway (though it's pretty hard to do a touch'n'go without that), and they want you to follow the POH. They want the latter more. Every Cessna POH I've seen says to lift the flaps after touchdown for a short field landing, though it's not very effective with electric flaps.

The examiner checked I knew that and then passed me. It's the only time I ever used the "but I was trained to ...." excuse.

 

[Caramon13]

@MAKG1 @FastEddieB I raise the flaps immediately after touchdown, always have in the planes I fly. The one time I didn't (which happened to be a checkride) the DPE did it for me.

But I guess it really depends on what the POH says..it's just a muscle memory thing with me at this point.

 

[Artimas]

The flap restriction isn't due to the 180 HP change. It's due to the increased gross weight that is usually done along with the HP increase. At the higher weight, the plane can't meet the required climb rate during a go around with 40 degree flaps. By limiting flaps to 30 degrees, it meets the requirement.

This is correct. I owned a 180 hp 172 that had 40 degrees of flaps available (Avcon). It wasn't eligible for the gross weight increase because of the 40 degree of flaps available.

 

[Farhan Najar]

The other day I was landing with winds straight up the runway 18G25kts flying a Cessna 172. Went to flare and floated quite a bit, much longer than I would have liked and struggled to prevent her from ballooning up. The landing ended smoothly, but I would like to know what I should have done differently. I didnt go full flaps and added 5kts to my approach speed to account for the gusts/strong headwind

Thoughts?


Configuration:

• Flaps 20 degrees (30 degree restriction on plane for 180HP motor)
• Approach speed @ threshold 70kts (added 5kts for gusts, normally 65kts)

 

[Farhan Najar]

you did well!
I also liked how you rounded the extra knots to “5” because 3.5 knots make no sense to me (25-18=7%2=3.5).

 

[Pinecone]

A point I've made before.

Fairly long flying career as a pilot and instructor, in a fairly wide range of GA aircraft and into and out of all sorts of paved and unpaved runways.

I have never, to my recollection, raised the flaps right after touchdown. I try to fly like I teach and its wise to teach to what the FAA wants - which is not touch anything until stopped clear of the runway.

I'll stipulate there might be some very small benefit to raising flaps right after landing in certain extreme or "edge" cases. But totally not necessary for the vast majority of pilots the vast majority of the time. I think futzing around in the cockpit in the landing rollout causes far more problems than lifting the flaps might help.

No one right answer. I raise the flaps on my Mooney, because the wing is low the flaps increase ground effect for braking. But gear swith is at the top of the panel in plain view, and flap swich is on the center console. Only other similar swich down there is the cowl flap switch.