Stretch yourself - Visit new airports...

[Hobobiker]

Posting this just because of what has helped me recently to stay out of a rut and continue to learn and challenge myself. Got my ticket last August and I'm still under 100 hours but doing XC work for my IFR. I found myself going to the same location or two over 50nm to build my time. My friend (and CFII) told me to make it a point to fly somewhere different every time I went up, and it's really helped a lot. Different scenery, different flight following frequencies, different situations, etc. Last night I flew to an airport and got to pass a ridge at 5500 MSL and then immediately descend to a TPA of 1700 MSL - nothing for some of you mountain jockeys but for this newbie PA flyer it was a lot of fun cutting the throttle and aggressively slipping down to be at pattern altitude a few miles before entry.

Anyway, just thought I would put it out there for students and new pilots to consider. Helps me improve my radio skills since I trained at a non-towered airport, builds my XC time, and let's me see and try new things along the way.

 

[MAKG1]

To practice IFR, it would be better to practice a moderate letdown, rather than a slip. You will NEVER slip in IMC. You should never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency.

Better IFR practice is to overfly the airport at high altitude, descend at exactly 500 FPM and 90 knots ground speed, and reverse course. Use a watch to time the course reversal. A conventional procedure turn takes four minutes from the first 45, and consumes up to 2000 feet of altitude. If you need to lose 4000, fly outbound for two minutes first.

As a VFR pilot, it's probably enough to control your descent to 500 FPM and plan your ground speed and how much time you need to get down. Reverse course by any means. But the procedure turn is what you'll really do in an approach.

Needing "extreme" maneuvers means you got behind the airplane. It shouldn't happen.

For "mountain jockeys," it's safer and much more pleasant to descend further from the terrain, if that is an option.

 

[BarryCooper]

I made it a point to make my XC's to places that I will actually go to after I get my PPL

 

[jordane93]

I find visiting new airports a lot more fun than just going to the same ones.

 

[James331]

Depending on your skills and state laws, do some backcountry flying too, the airplane doesn't care if it lands on a official runway vs a grass stretch or beach, plenty of stuff you can do with a stock 172/PA28 too.

To practice IFR, it would be better to practice a moderate letdown, rather than a slip. You will NEVER slip in IMC. You should never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency.

Better IFR practice is to overfly the airport at high altitude, descend at exactly 500 FPM and 90 knots ground speed, and reverse course. Use a watch to time the course reversal. A conventional procedure turn takes four minutes from the first 45, and consumes up to 2000 feet of altitude. If you need to lose 4000, fly outbound for two minutes first.

As a VFR pilot, it's probably enough to control your descent to 500 FPM and plan your ground speed and how much time you need to get down. Reverse course by any means. But the procedure turn is what you'll really do in an approach.

Needing "extreme" maneuvers means you got behind the airplane. It shouldn't happen.

For "mountain jockeys," it's safer and much more pleasant to descend further from the terrain, if that is an option.

If you think a slip is a extreme maneuver, PM me the contact info for the CFI who taught you that and I'll set him straight.

A slip is a very good tool to have in your belt and is a great tool to use for many instances.

I've slipped everything from little champs to turbo props.

You don't need to go full deflection ether, sometimes a slight slip is all that is needed, I've done it where my pax didn't even really notice.

 

[gitmo234]

^^ as far as slips go... it was funny demonstrating a slip to landing on my checkride without any actual cross wind. I demonstrated technique, but ever now and then had to come out of the slip and adjust. Wanted to edit/caveat, I was instructed to demonstrate with a fake right crosswind


As far as new airports go, I've been hitting a lot lately. I used to be very afraid of the idea of flying in somewhere new. Once I did it a few times I realized it wasnt as bad as I thought and its actually pretty fun.

I've hit probably 5 new airports in the last two months with equal as many more coming in the next few weeks

 

[bullwinkle]

You should never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency.

Needing "extreme" maneuvers means you got behind the airplane. It shouldn't happen.

Huh? I fly an airplane with a very light wing-loading. In addition, I prefer to err on the high side in my approaches to maximize survivability in an engine-out. These two factors mean that about 20% of the time, I'm a little high and need to come down a little steeper than my flaps are giving me. So I slip.

When my wife is in the plane, I say "Here comes the slip, baby." When I have new passengers I say "I'm a little high, and to adjust the descent I'm going to put the airplane a little sideways. It will feel weird, but it's normal." Nobody panics, most think it's fun.

I used a slip to the stops on my checkride to get in over a 50ft obstacle. The DPE didn't think it was extreme, he thought it was great and he commended me on it.

Is every airplane with no flaps an *extreme* airplane?

 

[MAKG1]

If you think a slip is a extreme maneuver, PM me the contact info for the CFI who taught you that and I'll set him straight.

A slip is a very good tool to have in your belt and is a great tool to use for many instances.

I've slipped everything from little champs to turbo props.

You don't need to go full deflection ether, sometimes a slight slip is all that is needed, I've done it where my pax didn't even really notice.

A slip to lose altitude in IMC is an extreme maneuver that puts you at risk of disorientation.

VFR, it is not extreme, but it's unpleasant for passengers. Sit in the right seat and especially the back once or twice to see why.

Context. The OP is doing cross countries as prep for IFR. Needing to slip for altitude loss EVER means he is behind the airplane, a serious situation in IFR.

 

[eman1200]

I would hope by the time you're training for IFR that going to a new airport isn't really 'stretching' it for you, but yeah, to your point, especially for newbies it's absolutely a great thing to do for all the reasons you said. shoot, even if you're going to the same airport all the time, try circling around and approaching it from a different heading than you're used to so you have to rethink how you'll enter the pattern and whatnot. c'mon, get out there and have some freakin fun dammit!

 

[MAKG1]

I used a slip to the stops on my checkride to get in over a 50ft obstacle. The DPE didn't think it was extreme, he thought it was great and he commended me on it.

Try it on an instrument check ride and see if the DPE is that calm about it. Busting 14 CFR 91.175(c)(1) isn't good if you want an instrument ticket.

 

[FlySince9]

Last night I flew to an airport and got to pass a ridge at 5500 MSL and then immediately descend to a TPA of 1700 MSL - nothing for some of you mountain jockeys but for this newbie PA flyer it was a lot of fun cutting the throttle and aggressively slipping down to be at pattern altitude a few miles before entry.
.

There is nothing wrong with overflying the airport first and losing altitude during a slow 180 back... Not as extreme and gives you a chance to look at the surrounding area and even get an idea of possible emergency landing fields for your departure from that unfamiliar airport... IMHO

 

[rocketflyer84]

Since when was a slip an extreme maneuver? Last I checked it was a required skill that needs to be demonstrated.

I agree that a hard slip under full IMC to recover a botched approach is not a great idea... Just go missed. But in normal flight a slip is a totally standard procedure.

 

[MAKG1]

Since when was a slip an extreme maneuver? Last I checked it was a required skill that needs to be demonstrated.

I agree that a hard slip under full IMC to recover a botched approach is not a great idea... Just go missed. But in normal flight a slip is a totally standard procedure.

Yes, it's in the private pilot PTS.

It's also a very rude thing to do to a passenger.

The OP is preparing for instrument training. He needs to keep himself out of situations where he'll need a slip to make a safe landing. Much of IFR flying is working far enough ahead of the airplane that you know when and how to climb, descend, and maneuver at a normal rate. In a spam can, it is almost never necessary to descend much faster than 500 FPM, and it's not nice to passengers. In this case, it was necessary only because the option to overfly the field was not realized. That makes it a teachable moment for how this might be done better.

It might be fun to pretend you're a barnstormer, but it's not helpful for instrument training. Quite the contrary.

It's also "safe" and "normal" to do 55 deg steep turns. That's on the CP-ASEL PTS. Same deal with turning stalls. That doesn't make it ever necessary for a cross country flight, or an appropriate thing to do to passengers.

Training is a whole lot more effective when it is planned. Either work cross-country, which means all the planning that entails (including letdown, climb points, timing, etc.), or it is air work. The latter with only pilot passengers. If you wing it, you have much less to evaluate your cross country planning.

 

[bullwinkle]

Try it on an instrument check ride and see if the DPE is that calm about it. Busting 14 CFR 91.175(c)(1) isn't good if you want an instrument ticket.

Dude, I get it. Don't post bizarre blanket statements like this:

You should never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency.

And you'll get a lot less grief. That statement does not seem to have anything to do with IFR.

 

[Shawn]

That statement does not seem to have anything to do with IFR.

This WHOLE thread is about discoveries while IFR training....as MAKG said...CONTEXT...which seems to elude many on this board.

 

[SkyDog58]

It makes a trip to a distant airport worth it a bit more if you have a reason besides building time or practicing. Do some research and look for airports that have something cool such as a museum, an aircraft factory you can tour or just a decent diner. If you do this, you are also more likely to be able to solicit a friend to go with you which makes it more fun as well as well as possibly cheaper. If the friend is a pilot then you can fly under the hood as well.

 

[woodchucker]

EDIT: the following comment is more about having fun building hours as a VFR pilot, not practicing for IFR stuff. I also received my PPL last August, and now have a bit more than 120 hours. When I typed my response, I wasn't sure if this thread was centered around the IFR aspect of building hours.
-----------------------
It's very true. The best thing you can do is to get out of town. I'm just a bit over 100 hours, and have flown XCs in almost every direction, typically around 200-350 nm distances.

I don't even think of it as building hours. I'm not sure if I'll get my IR yet. Right now I'm just having fun, and it sounds like you are too and that's what is important. But getting out of town will help you in your confidence as well.

Flying into Vegas about two weeks ago (new airport and new procedures), I found that the Bravo there seemed to handle arrivals different than the KSLC Bravo that I was used to. They kept me at 6000 ft until go time. So yes, keep that slip in your toolbox. I was pulling a full on slip through base and final, from 6000 down to the runway at 2200. I think I landed about a third of the way down. Again, chalk it up as a learning experience. I know I could have asked the tower for a 360, but we learned slips during training and that was the first time I had a chance to actually apply one.

Mountain ridges are fun too. Coming to my home drone from the east there is a ridge line at 9500 feet. The Bravo shelf is at 10500, and the airport is about 6 nm away at 4200 feet. Don't need a slip for that, but there isn't much room for maneuvering. Came in once on a beautiful VFR night. Chopped the throttle way back coming over the ridge and rode her down. Beautiful to see the city unfolding as you come over. The more you get out, the more you experience. Make sure to flight plan. I sometimes fly my upcoming XC in MSFX as well. The terrain is fairly close to expected. Provides a good visual.

One suggestion on your XC experiences though. Not only flight plan for diversions, practice them. Oops, gotta pee, let's go land over there! If you haven't experienced a real life diversion yet, you will, especially as you branch out. Plus, you never know what weird characters you may come across sitting in some small FBO in the middle of nowhere. Actually happened on that Vegas trip for me. Had just passed an airport about two miles behind me, and got hit with rain and instant low viz. Flipped a 180 and landed. Ended up stuck there for 7 hours, but met some real characters!

 

[eetrojan]

This WHOLE thread is about discoveries while IFR training....as MAKG said...CONTEXT...which seems to elude many on this board.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I think the OP is talking about VFR cross country flights to new airports that will help him gather the aeronautical experience needed for the instrument rating, not actual IFR training or XC time while flying IFR.

 

[SkyDog58]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I think the OP is talking about VFR cross country flights to new airports that will help him gather the aeronautical experience needed for the instrument rating, not actual IFR training or XC time while flying IFR.

If you did, you were not alone. I was there with you. I think someone was just being a bit obtuse.

 

[Hobobiker]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I think the OP is talking about VFR cross country flights to new airports that will help him gather the aeronautical experience needed for the instrument rating, not actual IFR training or XC time while flying IFR.

You and Woodchucker both read it correctly, my intent was to advise newer pilots to challenge themselves a little and hit new places while having fun on VFR XC flights. That said, even though I'm building my XC time for my IFR training while having these "fun" flights to new places, I do practice holding my heading, airspeed, use Flight Following, use standard turns, etc. Like many have said on the forum, the better I get at getting the plane to "fly itself" the more capable I'll be of handling the workload of single-pilot IFR.

So, even though I was slightly lambasted for some of my flight attributes, I still take value from those telling me to practice more like an IFR flight than the actual VFR flight that I'm making. Those comments and suggestions did not fall on deaf ears, so I appreciate everyone's input.

...but I have to admit, I still THOROUGHLY enjoyed the fact that I was able to slip and lose altitude so quickly in order to enter the pattern correctly. Something I hadn't had to do until that flight.

 

[bullwinkle]

This WHOLE thread is about discoveries while IFR training....as MAKG said...CONTEXT...which seems to elude many on this board.

Including you, apparently. Here is the actual pair of statements I and others reacted to:

You will NEVER slip in IMC. You should never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency.

Two statements:

1) You will NEVER slip in IMC.

2) You should never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency.

The first statement is related to IMC. The second is a blanket statement, and has NOTHING to do with IMC, and cannot, logically.

Why? Because he's already established that you NEVER slip in IMC. So there is no point to then say that you should "never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency" in IMC, because we "will NEVER slip in IMC". So it therefore logically the statement MUST be in reference to other than IMC conditions.

English language.

 

[EdFred]

It appears the English language in California is being modified and adjusted so it makes it easier to talk out of one's ass. Damn. I can't believe the stupid that's being spouted from the land of fruits and nuts. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[brian]]

Posting this just because of what has helped me recently to stay out of a rut and continue to learn and challenge myself. Got my ticket last August and I'm still under 100 hours but doing XC work for my IFR. I found myself going to the same location or two over 50nm to build my time. My friend (and CFII) told me to make it a point to fly somewhere different every time I went up, and it's really helped a lot. Different scenery, different flight following frequencies, different situations, etc. Last night I flew to an airport and got to pass a ridge at 5500 MSL and then immediately descend to a TPA of 1700 MSL - nothing for some of you mountain jockeys but for this newbie PA flyer it was a lot of fun cutting the throttle and aggressively slipping down to be at pattern altitude a few miles before entry.

Anyway, just thought I would put it out there for students and new pilots to consider. Helps me improve my radio skills since I trained at a non-towered airport, builds my XC time, and let's me see and try new things along the way.

Actually good advice for anyone. Easy to get into a rut and then really feel out of sorts when visiting some place new - BTDT.

 

[MAKG1]

Including you, apparently. Here is the actual pair of statements I and others reacted to:



Two statements:

1) You will NEVER slip in IMC.

2) You should never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency.

The first statement is related to IMC. The second is a blanket statement, and has NOTHING to do with IMC, and cannot, logically.

Why? Because he's already established that you NEVER slip in IMC. So there is no point to then say that you should "never slip to lose altitude with non pilot passengers, except in an emergency" in IMC, because we "will NEVER slip in IMC". So it therefore logically the statement MUST be in reference to other than IMC conditions.

English language.

Yes, English language.

And aviation terminology.

IFR is not the same as IMC. Ed, you ESPECIALLY should know the difference as an instructor.

You might be tempted to slip in VMC. You can, safely. But you may have a mess to clean up when your passengers puke or panic. And your passengers may not get back in the plane with you again.

Really, guys. Ride in the back seat when a pilot decides to slip to the stop, and see how you like it. It's VERY obvious few on this board have ever done it. You won't puke like a first timer might, but you might see how uncomfortable it is. It's a tool for emergencies and to practice for emergencies. Solo, it can be fun, in VMC. But it's not a good practice to for every flight, and it should never be truly necessary outside an emergency or an extraordinary circumstance like a very short obstructed runway.

 

[EdFred]

If your passengers get sick, you're doing it wrong.

And I have slipped in IMC. Just keep the GPS track matching the course, and you're fine.

 

[MAKG1]

If your passengers get sick, you're doing it wrong.

And I have slipped in IMC. Just keep the GPS track matching the course, and you're fine.

I've never had a passenger puke while I was PIC, though I've certainly had to instruct passengers about where to look during turns and turbulence to keep their lunch, on a few occasions. I've seen other PICs induce vomit with a slip, particularly when a passenger is doing something "wrong" like taking a photo (staring through a viewfinder is just about the worst thing you can do for airsickness). And I've been in the back when someone tried an aggressive slip. You should try that. It isn't as benign as you think.

It's almost as fun in the right seat when you don't know it's coming. But the motions are less severe there because you're closer to CG.

 

[EdFred]

Every time I've slipped with a passenger, I let them know it's coming. None complained, not even my (at the time) 80+ year old grandmother. I've been in the back during a slip. I've been in the right seat during a slip. I've been eyes closed during a slip when we did unusual attitude recover. Never bothered me. Maybe it's something in the water out there.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

whoa your profile says Pa, are there really 5000' ridges there? Maybe you crossed over to NY? Va? Maybe you are away from home. I need to review my NE geography.

 

[SkyDog58]

whoa your profile says Pa, are there really 5000' ridges there? Maybe you crossed over to NY? Va? Maybe you are away from home. I need to review my NE geography.

He wrote he passed a ridge at 5500'. Not sure if that was his altitude or the elevation of the ridge. Probably his altitude. If he meant the ridge then he probably was away from home and Virginia would be the closest with anything over 5500'.

Highest Peak in PA - Mount Davis - 3213'
Highest Peak in NY - Mount Marcy - 5343'
Highest Peak in WV - Spruce Knob - 4863'
Highest Peak in MD- Backbone Mountain- 3360'
Highest Peak in VA - Mount Rogers - 5729'

 

[Hobobiker]

whoa your profile says Pa, are there really 5000' ridges there? Maybe you crossed over to NY? Va? Maybe you are away from home. I need to review my NE geography.

5500 was my easterly altitude as I passed the ridge, then descended to the airport area...