Strange IFR cancel by ATC

GMascelli

GMascelli

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Jul 27, 2005
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3,461
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Ocean City, MD
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Display name:
GaryM
Inbound for KOXB after getting direct PFAIR (GPS14) I was setting up for my PT and I get the following. " Maintain 3000 until established, cleared GPS14 Ocean City". I acknowledge and follow with the PT. As soon as I start the outbound leg ATC cancels my IFR, squawk 1200, frequency change approved.

I respond that I am above a layer and I do not want to cancel and request descent to 2000. ATC cleared me to 2000 and I'm now IMC. I break
out around 1000, have the field in sight and cancel when I'm positive I can fly the pattern safely if I had to go missed.

Not sure why that happened but at least ATC stayed with me.
 
I'm sure that roncachamp will be along with the controller's take on this, but if it had happened to me, I would have said "Unable cancel IFR" just to get it on the tape. I don't think that you have the option to refuse a change in squawk code. I would check with the quality control folks at the ATC facility really quick, before the tapes are written over.

Bob Gardner
 
I agree with Bob. That's very strange. It's the pilot's prerogative to cancel IFR not ATC's authority to cancel your status (and potentially put you into an immediate FAR violation).

Any possibility you misunderstood the instruction?
 
I've seen this happen before. It's always been a developmental controller in training that got confused. Remind them you're IFR, and wish to remain IFR, and all will be well. As we all know, ATC can't cancel you when you're IFR.
 
GMascelli said:
Inbound for KOXB after getting direct PFAIR (GPS14) I was setting up for my PT and I get the following. " Maintain 3000 until established, cleared GPS14 Ocean City". I acknowledge and follow with the PT. As soon as I start the outbound leg ATC cancels my IFR, squawk 1200, frequency change approved.

I respond that I am above a layer and I do not want to cancel and request descent to 2000. ATC cleared me to 2000 and I'm now IMC. I break
out around 1000, have the field in sight and cancel when I'm positive I can fly the pattern safely if I had to go missed.

Not sure why that happened but at least ATC stayed with me.
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You're IFR until you cancel IFR. What did the controller actually say?
 
GMascelli said:
Inbound for KOXB after getting direct PFAIR (GPS14) I was setting up for my PT and I get the following. " Maintain 3000 until established, cleared GPS14 Ocean City". I acknowledge and follow with the PT. As soon as I start the outbound leg ATC cancels my IFR, squawk 1200, frequency change approved.

I respond that I am above a layer and I do not want to cancel and request descent to 2000. ATC cleared me to 2000 and I'm now IMC. I break
out around 1000, have the field in sight and cancel when I'm positive I can fly the pattern safely if I had to go missed.

Not sure why that happened but at least ATC stayed with me.
Click to expand...

You were already established on the PT, why ask for 2,000? Just tell him you're not cancelling yet.
 
Interesting Gary. I also had a strange routing coming out of KGED yesterday. Must be stump the chump day...
 
I'm still finishing my rating, but I've already had ATC try to cancel my IFR clearance on me. I am pretty sure they momentarily thought I was on a VFR code doing practice approaches and they're so used to cancelling people inbound on their last practice approach that they sometimes (rarely) accidentally robo tell pilots to squawk VFR while inbound. All I did was remind them that I'm IFR and they say "Oh... yeah... stay with me on that code" and all is well.
 
What the Patuxent Approach controller should have said approaching KOXB was something like this: "Beech 123, radar service terminated, frequency change approved, report your cancellation on this frequency in the air or on the ground by the RCO." And I've had trainees mistake this for what they are used to hearing when VFR and hit the VFR button on their Garmin transponder before I can stop them (gotta be real careful about that when you're in the SFRA as I am this week).

However, I've also had controllers just plain forget that I was IFR, not VFR, and tell me to squawk 1200 by mistake. It happens -- they're human. I've found the best action for me to take is to remind them that I'm still IFR and not able to cancel yet. The usual response is something on the order of "Oops, maintain your squawk, report your cancellation when ready." The fact that there's a great deal of initial controller training at Pax River contributes to this problem around the Eastern Shore of Maryland, too.
 
That's what I wrote it off as,training. Looking back at my notes there was another aircraft was inbound and he accepted a visual approach. I couldn't see a thing from PFAIR, a layer between me and the airport had my view obstructed.

I should call PAX and discuss just as a follow up.
 
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I'm used to hearing report airport in sight before getting a cancel on the approach, or as stated cleared for the approach freq change approved report cancelation with me or on the ground.
 
frfly172 said:
I'm used to hearing report airport in sight before getting a cancel on the approach, or as stated cleared for the approach freq change approved report cancelation with me or on the ground.
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Typically, PAX follows that process. Just a strange twist to our weekend beach run.
 
GMascelli said:
That's what I wrote I off as,training. Looking back at my notes there was another aircraft was inbound and he accepted a visual approach. I couldn't see a thing from PFAIR, a layer between me and the airport had my view obstructed.

I should call PAX and discuss just as a follow up.
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Even a visual approach does not imply cancelling IFR.
 
flyingron said:
Even a visual approach does not imply cancelling IFR.
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No, but in conditions good enough for a visual approach, a trainee controller might not realize that a particular aircraft is still above a layer and in need of an IAP. Not excusing the controller's mistake, but it's not necessarily the error your post seems to imply.

Though I have to add, this has never happened to me, so I'm just guessing too (as is everyone else).
 
Well with a controller error anything is possible, but I've had controllers many times ask if I was going to do the visual while I was in IMC or above a layer and responded that I'd need an approach.
 
flyingron said:
Well with a controller error anything is possible, but I've had controllers many times ask if I was going to do the visual while I was in IMC or above a layer and responded that I'd need an approach.
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"Expect the visual" is based on what ATC sees and knows.

The response is based on what the pilot sees and knows.
 
Just wanted to follow up.....

I talked to the folks at PAX. The supervisor had me call back so he could pull the tapes and make some notes. I returned a call in an hour as requested and we had a great chat. He said he did listen to the tapes and yes it was a trainee, for this area. He thought he went through the proper phraseology pretty quick and he could understand how I missed it. He also said that they use a repeater system through Salisbury and that could have created the problem or been a contributing factor. Either way he said he noted my immediate request to stay on IFR that I was above a layer and did not have the field. The supervisor also confirmed there was another aircraft that had accepted the visual for OXB and canceled ahead of me.

We went on to chat about the pilot/ATC interaction and I have to say it was a good learning experience. Nice folks at PAX, I thanked him for taking the time to pull the tapes and taking some time to chat with me.
 
I was summarily dropped by Bradley on final approach into Groton CT on a trip last year. I didn't fret over it since it was CAVU in the area, but I've never had ATC cancel IFR for me and leave me hanging with no radar advisories and instructions to contact tower 15 mi out. Weird. I must have been an irritant. I didn't even get the usual hint to cancel, "airport is 15 mi, 12 o'clock..."
 
flyingron said:
Well with a controller error anything is possible, but I've had controllers many times ask if I was going to do the visual while I was in IMC or above a layer and responded that I'd need an approach.
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Controllers can't tell what you can or can't see unless you tell them. Otherwise, if the reported weather seems good enough, they'll offer it. Choose wisely, but don't blame them for what they cannot see.
 
He thought he went through the proper phraseology pretty quick and he could understand how I missed it
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Now I'm confused. Did you hear it wrong, or did the trainee say it wrong?
 
coma24 said:
Now I'm confused. Did you hear it wrong, or did the trainee say it wrong?
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I didn't get to hear the tape. I'm going off the supervisors transcript that he noted. I did not hear all of what he said the controller said but the issue is resolved as far as I'm concerned.

I learned from my conversation with PAX and felt comfortable with my response while in the air. I guess to answer your question, I don't know. I did not hear the tape myself so I have to take the supervisors word, and he definitely seems knowledgeable and professional in his duty.
 
I talked to the folks at PAX. ... I have to say it was a good learning experience. Nice folks at PAX, ...
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I probably call the local Center or the local TRACON a couple of times a year with questions. It never fails that I get to talk to someone competent, usually the duty supervisor, and it never fails to be a pleasant, educational conversation. Not to diss the OP in any way, but I don't know why more people don't just pick up the phone when they have a question or an issue.

OT: I also have those phone numbers in my cell for that comm failure day ...
 
ATC brain-farts happen sometimes too. Until you acknowledge the cancel and change your code, you are still IFR. You did the right thing.
 
Be firm if it happens again just like you were. Like has been said here, brain fart.

The best example I've seen of how easy it can be to make that mistake on our end was this. 16 Skyhawks with French or Canadian registry (I work nowhere near Canada, it was pretty eye popping) all going to the same place in a loose gaggle. 15 were VFR, one was IFR. I get relieved and later my relief sees me in the break room to tell me about what happened. My relief with 30 years of ATC experience tried to terminate flight following with the one IFR out of 16 assuming he too was IFR.

Pilot did exactly as you describe and said he was IFR and intended to continue on as such.
 
Approach_controller said:
Be firm if it happens again just like you were. Like has been said here, brain fart.

The best example I've seen of how easy it can be to make that mistake on our end was this. 16 Skyhawks with French or Canadian registry (I work nowhere near Canada, it was pretty eye popping) all going to the same place in a loose gaggle. 15 were VFR, one was IFR. I get relieved and later my relief sees me in the break room to tell me about what happened. My relief with 30 years of ATC experience tried to terminate flight following with the one IFR out of 16 assuming he too was IFR.

Pilot did exactly as you describe and said he was IFR and intended to continue on as such.
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Well said
 
That's what worked for me the time that ATC lost track of my IFR status. I departed IFR into IMC from the Portland, Oregon area, and was still in IMC when I checked in with the sector that covered my filed destination of Arcata, Cal. I then heard an airliner making a missed approach at Arcata. Normally I would jump at the chance to fly an ILS to minimums in actual, but having been in IMC continuously for a long time, I didn't want to overtax my concentration before I saw the ground, wherever that might be, so I called Flight Watch for an update on the weather at alternates. I had been benefiting from a humongous tail wind, so instead of my filed alternate in the Redding area, I diverted to Santa Rosa. (By the time I left the sector, the airliner had made another missed approach at Arcata, and one at Crescent City.)

As I neared the Santa Rosa area, it became apparent that the tail wind had been strong enough that I could divert all the way to my final destination of Palo Alto and arrive with about an hour-and-a-half of fuel in the tanks, so that's what I did. When I checked in with the sector that covers the north Bay Area (at 5000 feet, I think it was), the controller asked me if I wanted IFR to Palo Alto. I told her "I am IFR!" I don't know whether diverting twice contributed to the confusion, but it was easily cleared up by informing ATC that I was IFR.
 
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