Stranded - need alternator help

RyanB said:
Just using it as an example. How many times have we seen non-PMA’d parts matched up against their PMA equivalent and compared the prices of the two? That little stamp of approval hikes the price by tenfold.

Who knows if Ace sells AN hardware, they probably don’t, that was just the example used in an above message. Odds are, NAPA or Advanced would carry something like it though.
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Sure. Ok.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Not to mention that not having an electrical source would likely knock out some 91.205 required equipment which makes it a no go from the start.
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The battery would run the engine and fuel gauges for some time. Taking off with an unaddressed defect would be the legal point.
 
SkyDog58 said:
POA never disappoints when it comes to having folks advising others to break regulations and/or to perform unairworthy maintenance. Or frequently both.
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Isn't it wonderful that we have someone in this world that has never broken a single regulation. Imagine never a speeding ticket. Never a parking ticket. You should apply for sainthood.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The battery would run the engine and fuel gauges for some time. Taking off with an unaddressed defect would be the legal point.
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I understand all of that. My comment was directed at those who might think that they could take off with an inoperative alternator under the provisions of 91.213 while paying no mind to its effect on other equipment and regulations.

There is a tendency of some on here to think that the regulations don’t matter, that some regulations mean something other than they do, or that it’s only a regulation if you get caught.

I attribute a large amount of that to young impressionable low time private pilots with little to no other experience in aviation who listen to old shade tree mechanics who filled their heads with nonsense. And just to be clear, I don’t mean you Dan.
 
OP here again, I assume everyone realizes we’re in the realm of hypothetical now - I drove home. It’s an interesting discussion of how you might be able to save such a flight, but I am now “out of the woods” so to speak.

It actually didn’t occur to me that it would be illegal to cut off the belt and fly home radio-less, given that so many planes fly without electrical systems at all. But now that I think about it, I can see the problem. It sounds a little silly, but it you wanted to stay as legal as possible, could you disable it, placard the master inop, logbook entry it, and fly home?

Finally,my handle notwithstanding, I am horrified that some of you have assumed my gender!
 
RyanB said:
Yeah, odds are I’d do the same if I was in a bind. Amusing thing is, that same AN bolt off the shelf at Ace is likely cheaper by a factor of x10 than whatever spruce or the OEM sells it for. Stupid PMA! :)
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I've never known of any local hardware store that sells AN hardware. But the similar strength (grade 5) bolts at the hardware store are pretty comparable in price to genuine AN hardware, at least until you get into oddball long lengths that aircraft suppliers don't stock.

If it even was an AN bolt in the first place... lots of engine related fasteners are ordinary commercial hardware, not AN, particularly where coarse thread fasteners are appropriate. For that matter, the alternator itself is probably a standard auto alternator with slight modification or just paperwork to make it a PMA part... and car alternators generally don't fall off despite not using AN hardware.

If it were me, I would have used a grade 5 auto or hardware store bolt to get home and replaced it with the correct hardware afterwards, regs be dammned... but that's just me, and unlike the OP I have tensioned alternator belts, lots of times. But if one is unfamiliar or uncomfortable with a proposed repair, then leaving it for another day or another person is the proper decision.
 
Personally, I would have put a hardware store bolt in it and flown it home. Illegal? maybe, but WTF, you can't get you plane home with a hardware store bolt???
Sure, I would replace the bolt with an AN bolt after I got back, but I would not spend a bunch of money and time to get home without my plane because someone with a stick up their ass somewhere says its illegal to use a hardware store bolt. If the plane does not need electrical power for primary instruments, then fly it home without power. Turn the master on, start it, turn the master off, fly home.

I put my panel together with the intent of being able to fly without an electrical system operating, but then most of my flying is backcountry.
 
Been there, done that, got the AOG-due-to-inop-Alternator T-shirt.

In my case I had the battery all charged up and ready for a pleasant flight home staying clear of all airspace where ADS-B, Mode C, or a radio would be required. At that moment, a roving FAA maintenance inspector walked up and ramp checked me. This was on a Saturday morning and there were 3 human beings at that airfield. Me, the guy who gave me a ride, and the FAA guy. True story.

After discussion with him, I did not fly, and wound up sitting in a hotel for 5 days because the alternator I paid hundreds of dollars in shipping for "overnight" delivery was stuck in a snowstorm at the Aircraft Spruce facility in PA. If I had a do-over, I would have found the provision in my AFM that allows operation without an electrical system, and I would have flown that day.

In the OPs case, I would have had my A&P talk me through a temp fix over the phone using a hardware store bolt, flown home, and had him do a proper repair with AN hardware. Or I would have had my A&P talk to the local A&P and work something out. Hopefully.

Regs are important, but are not always the last word. Good judgement and experience are sometimes necessary to decide when a work-around is reasonable, prudent, and justified. Never know when a bear is going to attack.

bear damage.jpg
 
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AA5Bman said:
You know what was the worst part? The worst part is that this actually happened on what was supposed to be a quick sight-seeing flight with my 70 year old mom, who is terrified of and convinced our plane is a death trap. The plan was to take her on a beautiful sightseeing flight around the mountains for an hour or so and then the family would come meet us at the airport and we’d load up the kids and fly home. We’ve flown that plane 400+ hours without hardly a fart and certainly never been stranded, and on the day I go to take up my nervous nelly mom we end up with an “emergency” landing. Sheesh. Life.
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The technical term for this is "aeronautical experience".
 
AA5Bman said:
my handle notwithstanding, I am horrified that some of you have assumed my gender!
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Never mind the handle, your display name is he. Unlike some here, I'm not interested in performing compliance inspections on others genitalia. You wanna be he? Fine by me.

Now, if you want to call yourself man, and he, and be annoyed we don't question that? Go someplace else...

More usefully, learn how to R&R your alternator belt, and carry the tools needed to do so. The wrench won't ask questions..

Paul
 
Take a look at your "Display name"......it even says "He". What we don’t know if it’s a natural He or a faux He. lol :D
AA5Bman said:
OP here again, ...........

Finally,my handle notwithstanding, I am horrified that some of you have assumed my gender!
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Magman said:
That burning rubber smell was likely the drive belt.

If it’s toast it would require prop removal to replace.

There are folks that keep a belt ty-wrapped to the case for that reason.

Of course ; then you never need it.
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Cheap insurance!!
 
I am so disappointed no one mentioned zip tie...
 
AA5Bman said:
@PaulMillner It was a joke
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Ah! Green font might have helped. But hey, mock others... wasn't funny.

Best wishes on your toolkit and get-home repair training. Most of us have picked up some skills in that department. Not everyone can or wants to, understandably...

Paul
 
Ed Haywood said:
Been there, done that, got the AOG-due-to-inop-Alternator T-shirt.

In my case I had the battery all charged up and ready for a pleasant flight home staying clear of all airspace where ADS-B, Mode C, or a radio would be required. At that moment, a roving FAA maintenance inspector walked up and ramp checked me. This was on a Saturday morning and there were 3 human beings at that airfield. Me, the guy who gave me a ride, and the FAA guy. True story.

After discussion with him, I did not fly, and wound up sitting in a hotel for 5 days because the alternator I paid hundreds of dollars in shipping for "overnight" delivery was stuck in a snowstorm at the Aircraft Spruce facility in PA. If I had a do-over, I would have found the provision in my AFM that allows operation without an electrical system, and I would have flown that day.

In the OPs case, I would have had my A&P talk me through a temp fix over the phone using a hardware store bolt, flown home, and had him do a proper repair with AN hardware. Or I would have had my A&P talk to the local A&P and work something out. Hopefully.

Regs are important, but are not always the last word. Good judgement and experience are sometimes necessary to decide when a work-around is reasonable, prudent, and justified. Never know when a bear is going to attack.

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How did a ramp check discover that you had an inop alternator? If you provided this information you should reconsider what you are required to tell someone who ramp checks you in the future. The two times I was ramp checked they asked for my pilot certificate and medical and looked over my aircraft from the outside. I didn't allow access to the interior and they were fine with that. It took maybe five minutes from start to finish and I was on my way.
 
Witmo said:
How did a ramp check discover that you had an inop alternator? If you provided this information you should reconsider what you are required to tell someone who ramp checks you in the future. The two times I was ramp checked they asked for my pilot certificate and medical and looked over my aircraft from the outside. I didn't allow access to the interior and they were fine with that. It took maybe five minutes from start to finish and I was on my way.
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Well, when you have a charge cart parked next to your airplane, with jumper cables running into the cockpit, it's kind of hard to concoct a cover story when Mr FAA Man walks up, flashes his ID, and says "hi, whatcha doing?"
 
Ed Haywood said:
Well, when you have a charge cart parked next to your airplane, with jumper cables running into the cockpit, it's kind of hard to concoct a cover story when Mr FAA Man walks up, flashes his ID, and says "hi, whatcha doing?"
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Hi whatcha doing?

Getting ready to go flying, how about you?
 
I'm thinking the only problem with a field fix on the OPs plane, is that it looks like there is more than just a nut and bolt missing there. Maybe a couple stacks of washers could fill the spaces temporarily.
 
The idea that a pilot can't use a quality replacement bolt to not be stranded somewhere for fear of legal repercussions is killing GA.
 
sure, and we like to play what iffs until the cows come home.
 
UngaWunga said:
The idea that a pilot can't use a quality replacement bolt to not be stranded somewhere for fear of legal repercussions is killing GA.
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Not really, there are some really stupid pilots out there. Back when ultralights first came out, or maybe a while later there were many instances of pilots doing their own repairs, things like pillow blocks (bearings), there were specific models that needed to be used, these real men of genius would see that the correct model was expensive and there were cheap models that fit perfectly. These other models were about 1/5 the price, so they would install those on their airplanes. The problem was that the cheap model was meant to run at 100 rpm, not the 2000 or 3000 rpm the airplane needed. The blocks would fail within a few hours, which a few times resulted in death, the grieved widow would sue the manufacturer.

Another one is some of the ultralights used high tensile wire as structural elements in their design. When a wire got damaged and needed to be replaced, these pilots would go to the local hardware store and buy some picture hanging wire, what could go wrong???
 
UngaWunga said:
The idea that a pilot can't use a quality replacement bolt to not be stranded somewhere for fear of legal repercussions is killing GA.
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UngaWunga said:
ure, and we like to play what iffs until the cows come home.
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Not really. The fact the younger generations prefer to fly drones and flight simulators vs real airplanes is one significant part. And one of the reasons nobody is in a rush to put out new aircraft models: no market. Besides a number of aircraft owners don't worry about any "legal repercussions" given how much work hangar fairies perform every year or the those who seek out $200/20 minute annuals.
 
PaulS said:
Not really, there are some really stupid pilots out there. Back when ultralights first came out, or maybe a while later there were many instances of pilots doing their own repairs, things like pillow blocks (bearings), there were specific models that needed to be used, these real men of genius would see that the correct model was expensive and there were cheap models that fit perfectly. These other models were about 1/5 the price, so they would install those on their airplanes. The problem was that the cheap model was meant to run at 100 rpm, not the 2000 or 3000 rpm the airplane needed. The blocks would fail within a few hours, which a few times resulted in death, the grieved widow would sue the manufacturer.

Another one is some of the ultralights used high tensile wire as structural elements in their design. When a wire got damaged and needed to be replaced, these pilots would go to the local hardware store and buy some picture hanging wire, what could go wrong???
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yes, but there's a difference between that and using a quality bolt to hold the alternator on for a single flight. You can always come up with a ton of straw men to punch at. And then there's taking a step back, assessing the risk, and making a educated judgment call.
 
UngaWunga said:
yes, but there's a difference between that and using a quality bolt to hold the alternator on for a single flight. You can always come up with a ton of straw men to punch at. And then there's taking a step back, assessing the risk, and making a educated judgment call.
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The instances I referenced made an educated judgement, these were not straw men, unfortunately their education was lacking.

I've seen presentations given by aircraft mechanics, where they said, for certain remote repairs, they would sign off a flight to them for work done by a pilot stuck somewhere. Now we are talking simple stuff for sure, but it can be done. It think the OP example is a case though, where a pilot left to his own devices may get themselves into trouble. I think there may be more hardware missing than just a bolt and a nut.
 
Bell206 said:
Not really. The fact the younger generations prefer to fly drones and flight simulators vs real airplanes is one significant part. And one of the reasons nobody is in a rush to put out new aircraft models: no market. Besides a number of aircraft owners don't worry about any "legal repercussions" given how much work hangar fairies perform every year or the those who seek out $200/20 minute annuals.
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There is hope for aviation yet. Check out Zara Rutherford’s around the world flight. She is only 19.

I agree with your hangar fairy statement. A lot of things look simple, but sometimes folks don’t know what they don’t know! That being said, I think a temporary repair would have been okay for the OP (moot point now since ground transportation was used). It would be interesting to know who installed the bolt that went missing.
 
somorris said:
There is hope for aviation yet. Check out Zara Rutherford’s around the world flight. She is only 19.
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Except she picked a non-TC'd aircraft to do it with. Remember LSA was supposed to be the savior of GA and we see how that went. But it will take more than a few young people to save GA.;)
somorris said:
I think a temporary repair would have been okay for the OP (moot point now since ground transportation was used).
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But whats ironic in this situation it was discussed above there was a legal route for the pilot to take that would have permitted them to install the correct hardware and sign it off in the book. Yet few even attempted to understand that or comment on it. While it seems people whine about the "stinking rules" a lot, quite a number of them don't even know what all the rules are and where they can actually work on their aircraft without the need of an A&P. Some don't even try and complain instead. You would think everyone would be in E/AB by now for that mx freedom or at least be involved in designing an E/AB clone of a Cessna 182 to make their millions. Yet there's none.:rolleyes:
somorris said:
It would be interesting to know who installed the bolt that went missing.
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Should be quite easy provided everyone followed the rules.
 
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