Straight in

midwestpa24 said:
In light of all the conversations about pattern entries and straight ins, I have decided until further notice than I will fly a vertical pattern, first overflying the runway downwind, then a Split-S to final. That should deconflict me from other traffic, right?
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the problem will be that people will be so awed by your skill that they will fall out of the sky...
 
bluesideup said:
If you can't fly a Pattern, with any acft in it, get some more training or do something else, flying is not for people that think they own the sky and have others bow to their superior lack of knowledge.
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I'm not advocating that you barrel into the airport screaming "LEEEEEEROY JENKINS!" on a straight in with utter disregard to the traffic around you (search leeroy jenkins video if not familiar, it's worth your time). If you decide that for safety's sake you should join the pattern, then you should do so. And if your skills don't permit you to then yes, you need add'l training.

But I'd also argue that if you're flying in the pattern and you can't figure out how to accommodate an aircraft on a predictable, well-communicated straight-in then you should seek additional training. And if you simply WON'T accommodate another pilot doing a straight in or you willingly interfere with it out of spite just because you think that your approach is superior, then you should have your certificate revoked for being a dangerous, petty child with all-around terrible aeronautical decision making skills.
 
Does entering the pattern on the initial for an overhead break count as joining the pattern?

I mean I think he meant to say:
If you can't fly a Pattern, with any acft on straight in final, get some more training or do something else, flying is not for people that think they own the sky and have others bow to their superior lack of knowledge.
 
It seems the arguments against straight in frequently involve claims of inadequate pilot skill or an inability to join a pattern due to inadequate skill. The factor that may not be so obvious to some is the trouble it makes when planes of vastly different pattern speeds are sharing the same pattern.
 
FORANE said:
It seems the arguments against straight in frequently involve claims of inadequate pilot skill or an inability to join a pattern due to inadequate skill. The factor that may not be so obvious to some is the trouble it makes when planes of vastly different pattern speeds are sharing the same pattern.
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Bingo. Our airport serves large turbines, piston twins, light singles, and even gliders. All share the same runway. Timely and repeated communication about arrivals and departure intentions makes it all work just fine. If convenient, turbines and IFR arrivals usually fly straight-in, which minimizes time in the pattern, avoids speed conflicts, and expedites landings. The only time it gets crazy is when someone barges in without announcing their position until they are on base or short final. Nobody has a monopoly on the runway.
 
I fly a small light sport plane. My mission is to stay safe so I try and keep out of the way as much as possible. I will yield to turbine powered, twins and other larger, faster than me, aircraft when it is prudent to so for safety. It don't phase me to have to extend a downwind or expedite a departure. It's all in a day's fun.

The object for me is to follow the rules (as best as they can be understood) and keep myself and others alive & happy ... even if I have to give up the right of way that was clearly mine. If I have to give up my right to the right of way because you did something dumb we can discuss it on the ground. Arguing on the radio is almost as fruitless as raging at each other on the internet.

Time to adult!
 
Scenario: You're on downwind and ready to turn base. You look to the final approach course (where you should ALWAYS look, because the aircraft on final has the right of way) and you decide whether you can land and get off the runway safely ahead of that aircraft or whether you would be better off (i.e. "less dead") to just follow him in. If you can't safely get in ahead of him, you stay on downwind and follow him in, adding very little time to your flight.

After everyone survives that potential crash, you should feel free to ***** and moan about the pilot doing the straight in, complain to the FSDO, start a petition to change the regulation, call your congressgritter, hold up a sign on a street corner, start a new thread, or do anything else to express your own opinion about how wrong it is to have a regulation that's probably been in existence for much longer than you've been a pilot. :)
 
dbahn said:
(where you should ALWAYS look, because the aircraft on final has the right of way)…
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CFR 91.113 - “When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.”
 
FastEddieB said:
CFR 91.113 - “When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.”
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. . . which immediately follows the more important statement: "(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach."

So even if you're at the lower altitude, you can't cut in front of an aircraft on final approach. If an aircraft on final approach is at risk of hitting you in the pattern, it's on final approach regardless of how long he's been on that course.

And one good reason you should ALWAYS look before turning base and final is that the pilot already on final thinks he has the right of way and may very well not even be able to see you. Only a fool would take those odds by cutting in front of him.
 
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dbahn said:
. . . which immediately follows the more important statement: "(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach."

So even if you're at the lower altitude, you can't cut in front of an aircraft on final approach. If an aircraft on final approach is at risk of hitting you in the pattern, it's on final approach regardless of how long he's been on that course.
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But what if two unladen swallows are on final at the same time?
 
As long as they swallow.

Wait, wut?
 
Tom Wells said:
My procedure for doing straight in if its busy is just a quick to-the-point announcement 10+ miles out that I'm on a straight-in final.
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I'm not opposed to that, except I try to not use the word "final" in my radio call that far out, but instead merely indicate my intention to do so. (I fly a 177B.) I don't want anyone to think I have claimed the right of way that far out given that my plane isn't the fastest one out there. As I get closer, if traffic allows, then I call out straight in final.
 
chemgeek said:
Bingo. Our airport serves large turbines, piston twins, light singles, and even gliders. All share the same runway. Timely and repeated communication about arrivals and departure intentions makes it all work just fine. If convenient, turbines and IFR arrivals usually fly straight-in, which minimizes time in the pattern, avoids speed conflicts, and expedites landings. The only time it gets crazy is when someone barges in without announcing their position until they are on base or short final. Nobody has a monopoly on the runway.
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You fly out of KBDN, too? :)
 
This is simple...when you do straight in approaches, just always say you are doing a practice RNAV to a full stop. But seriously, the guys who ALWAYS get in my way at the airport are the ones that MUST either do a teardrop or 45 downwind entry. This is why pattern entry's are guidelines and not rules. If you forced everyone to enter a certain way, it would cause more problems than it would solve...
 
PPC1052 said:
I'm not opposed to that, except I try to not use the word "final" in my radio call that far out, but instead merely indicate my intention to do so. (I fly a 177B.) I don't want anyone to think I have claimed the right of way that far out given that my plane isn't the fastest one out there. As I get closer, if traffic allows, then I call out straight in final.
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That's a very good point... I'm going to avoid saying 'final' until I'm much closer...

J. Taylor Stanley said:
But seriously, the guys who ALWAYS get in my way at the airport are the ones that MUST either do a teardrop or 45 downwind entry.
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Same here. In my experience it doesn't help that many of the teardrop entry radio calls tend to be long and awkward as people describe what they're going to do.
 
midwestpa24 said:
In light of all the conversations about pattern entries and straight ins, I have decided until further notice than I will fly a vertical pattern, first overflying the runway downwind, then a Split-S to final. That should deconflict me from other traffic, right?
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Only RV owners are authorized for this entry ...
 
Instructions unclear. Landed straight-in to adjoining taxiway with gear up doing 180kt.
 
FWIW (I've been on both ends of this) if you're doing a practice RNAV into an uncontrolled airport, for the sake of the low-time / non-instrument folks in the pattern, don't announce 'at XXXXX' on the CTAF - as any student pilot in the pattern probably won't have a clue what 'XXXXX' is. Better to announce 'X miles straight in to XX'. Non-instrument people will then have an idea where you are, and what to expect.
 
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