Straight in finals..is that a good idea?

For most small planes straight-in finals are the sign of a self-centered pilot who doesn't have time to see if he might not be the only one using the airport. I had a very near miss with some cowboy air taxi pilot during a long cross country as a student. I didn't have a clue what had happened but some jackwagon was cussing me out on the radio. I walked to the FSS to ask what had happened. I took some comfort in how the FSS person called on the phone and yelled at the other guy like I'd never heard before. I was talking, but the idiot in the other plane wasn't listening. I had another very close call a few years later. I happened to see the other plane bearing right toward me that time. If the other guy in that one had a radio, he sure didn't know how to use it. Dumbass. Just enter the pattern and see who's on the ground, and give them a chance to see you.

I live on an uncontrolled but often busy airstrip. I hate it when guys call a straight-in when I'm trying to get out the opposite direction.
 
Stewartb said:
For most small planes straight-in finals are the sign of a self-centered pilot who doesn't have time to see if he might not be the only one using the airport...

I live on an uncontrolled but often busy airstrip. I hate it when guys call a straight-in when I'm trying to get out the opposite direction.
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Um. Why are you doing opposite direction at an uncontrolled field? And do you ever tell them that you're holding short waiting to depart on the opposite runway?

I mean, I've called in for plenty of straight in finals and then changed my plan to accommodate others once I knew they were there. Being a good pilot is all about being flexible with your plans!

Heck, I changed the plan at a towered field just last night. I was #2 of 3 inbounds and for some reason the tower controller wanted me to go opposite direction to #1 and #3 initially. Then he asked me to slow down for #1 and I suggested that I'd be happy to just fly the downwind and land on the same runway following him in, since I had him in sight... Controller agreed. Again, mutual respect.

And I don't even mind a 152 doing a straight-in final most of the time. If there's nobody else in the pattern, or if it's not going to cause a conflict, I don't want them to have to fly another hour just to go around the pattern. :goofy:
 
Stewartb said:
For most small planes straight-in finals are the sign of a self-centered pilot who doesn't have time to see if he might not be the only one using the airport. I had a very near miss with some cowboy air taxi pilot during a long cross country as a student. I didn't have a clue what had happened but some jackwagon was cussing me out on the radio. I walked to the FSS to ask what had happened. I took some comfort in how the FSS person called on the phone and yelled at the other guy like I'd never heard before. I was talking, but the idiot in the other plane wasn't listening. I had another very close call a few years later. I happened to see the other plane bearing right toward me that time. If the other guy in that one had a radio, he sure didn't know how to use it. Dumbass. Just enter the pattern and see who's on the ground, and give them a chance to see you.

I live on an uncontrolled but often busy airstrip. I hate it when guys call a straight-in when I'm trying to get out the opposite direction.
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Straight in means self-centered huh? That's quite the interesting logic there! And in your example, you were talking, he wasn't listening, yet you "didn't have a clue what happened"...(?)...sigh.
 
Stewartb said:
For most small planes straight-in finals are the sign of a self-centered pilot who doesn't have time to see if he might not be the only one using the airport.....
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for anyone unfamiliar with straight in's and how to do them properly, this is just awful, bad 'advice'.


Stewartb said:
I live on an uncontrolled but often busy airstrip. I hate it when guys call a straight-in when I'm trying to get out the opposite direction.
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ah, it's making a little more sense now....
 
francisco collazos said:
I'm not trying to outlaw anything. It's a question that's all..there's room for discussion here and that's all i'm looking for.
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Francisco - TBH, The Reddit flying sub is a more supportive environment for pilots in training. You’ll probably get less snarky responses there.
 
Country Flier said:
Straight in means self-centered huh? That's quite the interesting logic there! And in your example, you were talking, he wasn't listening, yet you "didn't have a clue what happened"...(?)...sigh.
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As a 25 hour student? No idea. All I heard was yelling on the radio.

Yes, I get to watch lots of airplane ops, and I think guys doing straight-ins in my area are a problem. Standard patterns work better for everyone but the guy flying the straight-in. I should start doing multi-mile straight-ins in my Cub. At 25mph. Screw everybody else.
 
If everyone is talking and situationally aware--eyeballs, ADS-B if appropriate, what's the issue? Stop talking or looking outside and you have a problem.

We have a mix of VFR, IFR, turbine traffic, and flight instruction going on at our airport, which can bet pretty busy at peak times. Everybody usually manages just fine without trading paint. It's the ones that don't talk, or are on the wrong freq that get everyone else in trouble. Straight-in? No problem. We can make it work.
 
Country Flier said:
Straight in means self-centered huh? That's quite the interesting logic there! And in your example, you were talking, he wasn't listening, yet you "didn't have a clue what happened"...(?)...sigh.
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Well....I was thinking that went for the overhead breaks..... o_O
 
francisco collazos said:
...BUt what constitutes a final? 3mi, 5mi?...
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The FAA does not seem to have codified that. Rather than trying to unambiguously define what the FAA has chosen not to, the question we should be asking ourselves is whether there is enough room to turn in front of the other airplane without creating a hazard. Or better yet, ask the other pilot if there is enough room.
 
Straight-ins aren’t the problem. The issues we’re having are people not flying safe. As a collective, we have to be better with aeronautical decision making. For example, not flying unstable approaches and making sure we’re lining up for the correct runways (KVGT mid-air). In the Watsonville case, not doing 180kts into an airport full of trainers or slower aircraft doing less than half that in the pattern. And extending a downwind instead of turning base after somebody announces their on final.

Flying into any airport, towered or non-towered, can be made safer by us being more mindful of what we’re doing when we’re up there. Listen to what other pilots are doing on frequency and plan your actions accordingly. Then make sure that you’re communicating your intentions clearly and that you’re actually doing what you’re saying. If you feel like a conflict could arise, act on it immediately.
 
Stewartb said:
As a 25 hour student? No idea. All I heard was yelling on the radio.

Yes, I get to watch lots of airplane ops, and I think guys doing straight-ins in my area are a problem. Standard patterns work better for everyone but the guy flying the straight-in. I should start doing multi-mile straight-ins in my Cub. At 25mph. Screw everybody else.
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So your cub does 25? Not even 25 knots, but 25 mph??? (Must be some kind of SUPER super-STOL cub then!!!) Seems you'd be "screwing everybody else" in the pattern as well at 25 mph. Funny how you see this so black and white: either its fly the pattern or screw everybody. Yet, I've done many a straight in without screwing anyone. I've also flown a pattern many times with others coming straight in, and haven't seen this "self-centered" attitude to everyone coming straight in...but I guess my relatively low hours (only 1100 hours as of my 14th BFR which is scheduled for later today) I would say I haven't yet seen it all, and I've only flown in Alaska twice, so maybe these people youre seeing are local...
 
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I do straight in approaches all the time, when I'm certain the traffic pattern will allow it safely. I certain don't blow into them at top speed either.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Francisco - TBH, The Reddit flying sub is a more supportive environment for pilots in training. You’ll probably get less snarky responses there.
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Thanks but i'm a big boy (Gen-xr) lol...I have been able to find some really good information though. I have wondered what I would do if I was that student in the 152 and was in the same situation. Someone mentioned that the correct procedure would be to turn into final but veer to the left of the runway. You know flying is all about experience, just like being a doctor. It's easy to do the daily stuff but when **** hits the fan its the experience and the knowledge that you need to get you out of the situation. I value experience as well as all comments regardless to what people say. I don't think I know everything (just the opposite) and I am willing to learn from other peoples' experience. I have noticed that there is a lot of bravado in aviation.
 
I was a student in a 152 at one time, never was taught that if I'm in the pattern I have priority and everyone else has to join to land. Also didn't hurt that the next closest airport was uncontolled with an ILs so to expect other people to always fly straight ins and make the turn to base when abeam the straight in plane - assuming not multiple straight ins.
 
I'm not wasting my fuel to go into a pattern, straight in or nothing for me. I've found if you get on the radio and call dibs on the runway, everyone else will clear the area for you.

For that matter, I'm not wasting fuel to taxi to the other end of the runway to take off into the wind. I'll go to the nearest runway every time, I have a 182 and I don't need much runway and certainly don't need wind on the nose! Sometimes I take off straight out of my hangar, but that doesn't leave me much room to clear the hangar across from me.

I also think that if everyone is looking for traffic it's a waste of time. If you're looking, why should I? I'll look at the runway, or Facebook, and you look out for me. Much more efficient.
 
Initial call "bug smasher N1234, 3 mile final runway 22. any traffic please advise"
 
I virtually never fly a straight-in to a non-towered airport. I overfly 500' above the pattern so I can look down at the runways and windsock and look for traffic taxiing and in the pattern. I then fly out a bit on the pattern side and descend to enter the downwind about midfield at about a 45º angle. It's how I was taught and how I taught my students and what I encourage fellow pilots to do as well.

But I'm aware other pilots don't follow this recommended procedure, or may be practicing approaches, so of course I'm also looking for straight-in traffic, especially prior to the turn from base to final.

Works for me.
 
AlphaMike said:
Initial call "bug smasher N1234, 3 mile final runway 22. any traffic please advise"
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The key word is "final". Don't say "straight in", say "final". 12-mile final. And, if you hit another plane, it's a different kind of final.
 
FastEddieB said:
I virtually never fly a straight-in to a non-towered airport. I overfly 500' above the pattern so I can look down at the runways and windsock and look for traffic taxiing and in the pattern. I then fly out a bit on the pattern side and descend to enter the downwind about midfield at about a 45º angle. It's how I was taught and how I taught my students and what I encourage fellow pilots to do as well.

But I'm aware other pilots don't follow this recommended procedure, or may be practicing approaches, so of course I'm also looking for straight-in traffic, especially prior to the turn from base to final.

Works for me.
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All the more reason for turbine airplanes to do a straight-in…people bopping around our traffic pattern looking down. ;)
 
Rgbeard said:
@francisco collazos

The Watsonville incident was an unfortunate, (but fortunately rare) situation where not one, but two pilots lost their situational awareness.

The twin Cessna driver could have chosen to do *anything* else, and didn't.
The pattern-flier could have chosen to do *anthing* else, and didn't.

We don't need to keep disallowing actions or maneuvers. If we begin the path you're recommending, well, we'll eventually get to the point where we might as well hang up our keys.

Pilots need to keep their head up, keep their egos in-check, listen to the radio (if equipped), and understand the big picture.
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Or they'll just solve the, "problem" by mandating anti collision radar in all General Aviation Aircraft effectively killing General Aviation.

People are killed and maimed daily when other drivers run stop signs and stoplights.

We can't mandate or regulate our way out of all problems without eliminating freedom.

As pilots we have to assume a greater level of personal responsibility and situational awareness than most people.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Why are you doing opposite direction at an uncontrolled field?
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Sometimes others are going the wrong way. Sometimes it's calm and I'm already at this end. Sometimes the glider lands where it lands and it's faster to launch from there than drag it to the other end. There's no "active" runway at an uncontrolled field. Land and takeoff whichever direction you want. Don't be reckless.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I'm not wasting my fuel to go into a pattern, straight in or nothing for me. I've found if you get on the radio and call dibs on the runway, everyone else will clear the area for you.

For that matter, I'm not wasting fuel to taxi to the other end of the runway to take off into the wind. I'll go to the nearest runway every time, I have a 182 and I don't need much runway and certainly don't need wind on the nose! Sometimes I take off straight out of my hangar, but that doesn't leave me much room to clear the hangar across from me.

I also think that if everyone is looking for traffic it's a waste of time. If you're looking, why should I? I'll look at the runway, or Facebook, and you look out for me. Much more efficient.
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That should work. After all it's what everybody else is doing. As long as you don't run into yourself going the other way, we should all be fine. :)
 
dbahn said:
That should work. After all it's what everybody else is doing. As long as you don't run into yourself going the other way, we should all be fine. :)
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I scared myself once when I took off on 17 and came back to land on 35. Saw myself go by and had to chastise myself on the radio.
 
Lindberg said:
Sometimes others are going the wrong way. Sometimes it's calm and I'm already at this end. Sometimes the glider lands where it lands and it's faster to launch from there than drag it to the other end. There's no "active" runway at an uncontrolled field. Land and takeoff whichever direction you want. Don't be reckless.
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If you do this at my airport, taking 35 even when there are no other planes in the air, someone will get on the radio and tell you 17 is the calm-wind runway!

Please be wreckless.
 
Lowflynjack said:
If you do this at my airport, taking 35 even when there are no other planes in the air, someone will get on the radio and tell you 17 is the calm-wind runway!

Please be wreckless.
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There are people who will do the same locally. Or announce that the airport is operating on 18 when there's a direct crosswind. I ignore them and announce what I'm doing, while seeing and avoiding. They can be PIC of their own airplanes and I'll be PIC of mine.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I wouldn't necessarily throw those guys, of which I am one, under the bus. In some ways, it's the same problems as I was talking about above, only worse because I'm at the same pattern altitude as significantly slower aircraft. FWIW, in my "big" Mooney (Long body, IO-550) I can't really see over the nose unless I'm going 100 KIAS or so until I'm configured for landing... And if I'm joining the pattern at the end of a cross country flight I'm probably significantly faster than that - My gear speed is 140, usually I'm descending at around 160-165 KIAS and I have to sit at 14" of manifold pressure for a while to get down to 140 to throw the gear out. Anything less than 14" and the gear warning horn goes off. So, it's not always easy to "fit in" with a bunch of C-birds in a pattern.
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Don't you have speed brakes?

I have a 252 and have no problem, with some planning, on entering the pattern at 90.
 
francisco collazos said:
I am finishing up my PPL (checkride hopefully at the end of the month) and really would worry about flying in my Class D airport but the more I fly out into nontowered airports the more I am really glad I am flying out of a towered airport.
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bbchien said:
Franscisco, FWIW in 1991 I came within literal inches of swapping paint with an aircraft on Left base at turn to-final.
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Bruce is correct Francisco ... during my training I was in the Class C with my CFI and another student was as well (belonged to a different CFI). Tower gave him a "position and hold" which is "line up and wait" now ... they forgot about him and cleared commercial traffic to land the same runway. My CFI piped up as tower was initially admonishing the student, but backed off when my CFI "cleared his memory" ...
 
Lindberg said:
There are people who will do the same locally. Or announce that the airport is operating on 18 when there's a direct crosswind. I ignore them and announce what I'm doing, while seeing and avoiding. They can be PIC of their own airplanes and I'll be PIC of mine.
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Yeah, it's funny the advice you get from other pilots at a non-controlled field. I've flown mostly tailwheel planes over the years, and they tend to like the wind on the nose. I've had people argue with me about which runway was active! I usually let them know that they're all active and I'm choosing the one that is right for me. I'll wait a few minutes to let them switch runways or get out of the way, but I'm not going to crash to make 3 Skyhawks in the pattern happy!
 
Pinecone said:
Don't you have speed brakes?

I have a 252 and have no problem, with some planning, on entering the pattern at 90.
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I do, but generally don't use them unless ATC slam-dunks me or something else goes wrong with the plan. They're not nearly as effective as the gear or flaps, so if I'm fast I'll usually just throw them out to get down to gear speed.

Really, they're more of a lift-dump device than a drag device. They blank out about 6 feet of the wing. There's a really cool YouTube video somewhere showing the airflow around them thanks to some precip and the right lighting.

In any case, speed brakes make visibility over the nose in the pattern much worse, not better. Blanking out 20% of the wing means you need to lift the nose to compensate.
 
My point was to use them to get the speed down. Gear also works well once you are below 140. Then get to flaps speed and TO flaps will drop the nose a bit.
 
Pinecone said:
My point was to use them to get the speed down. Gear also works well once you are below 140. Then get to flaps speed and TO flaps will drop the nose a bit.
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Right... And like I said, they're not nearly as effective at that, despite what they're named. But in any case, the real issue is that I'm still either going to be doing 172 cruise speed in the pattern, or my nose is gonna be high enough to have a high likelihood of blocking my view of traffic I might be overtaking.

"Fly the pattern every time" is just silly anyway, it's rare for me to ever encounter another aircraft in the air at an uncontrolled field. :( So, I generally enter the pattern, or not, in whatever way is gonna get me on the ground the quickest. If there is other traffic, we figure it out. It all depends what type(s) of aircraft are in the area and where they are. Maybe if they're on base, a trip around the pattern will delay me enough that they won't be in my way, while if they're just off the ground for a touch and go, I'll be down and out of their way with a straight in. Again, it all depends on all of us exercising mutual respect for one another, and in my experience that is exactly what happens the vast majority of the time.
 
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