Story About a Defiant Student

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saratoga2250

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saratoga2250
Here's a story for instructors to evaluate:

A student has been in training with the same instructor for a period of two years. He has taken several breaks in training due to various reasons, but has eventually come around to being able to perform solo cross countries. Up to this point, he has been an excellent student. His arrival to the airport is timely, he seems to have studied ground material in preparation for each lesson, he has passed his written test with a good score, and he is eager to obtain his private pilot certificate. The instructor and student have a great relationship.

Prior to entering the final stage in training, where we "smooth out the edges" in preparation for the checkride, the student starts becoming defiant with his instructor. It first begins with tardiness but soon thereafter extends to behavior exhibited during pre-lesson briefings, such as simply refusing to sit down when his instructor invitingly says, "Come on in and have a seat." The instructor shrugs this off a few times, but soon realizes the student's body language indicates he is eager to leave the briefing. He points his feet at the door, checks his watch, and is easily distracted by the smallest movements outside the window or outside the door.

His performance during training flights is unsatisfactory. Numerous PTS items are out of tolerance. Checklists are not being run, resulting in critical items being missed. His primary instructor enlists the help of another instructor to evaluate the student's progress independently. The assisting instructor notes the same deficiencies as the primary instructor. Despite going through a long brief with the assisting instructor, the student returns a day later to fly with the primary instructor, repeating the same mistakes with no improvement whatsoever.

The student takes no notes during any briefings with either instructor. He refutes many of the debrief items, attempting to create doubt in the instructor's mind as to what the instructor knows was observed. The brief ends with the student asking "So you think I'll need maybe 1 more flight before I'm ready to go?" The answer is always "You'll be signed off as soon as you consistently demonstrate conformity with PTS standards."

The student's ego is bursting at the seams. He wholeheartedly believes he is ready to go, but his primary instructor and the assisting instructor both know that is not true. Both instructors are honest, experienced instructors with solid track records of student success.

The primary instructor is now considering:

1. Sending the student to an FAA DPE or inspector for a checkride, despite knowing he will not pass, under the belief that a first-time checkride failure would deflate the student's ego and make him realize his instructors are correct.

2. Sending him to a third instructor, who would then become the student's primary until he is performing within PTS standards.

3. Terminating his training completely.

What would you do?
 
Choice 2 or 3, but certainly not 1. Why should the instructor's record take a hit just to make a point?

Bob Gardner
 
Croomrider said:
Send him to drug rehab!
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Could be cocaine for sure!

Or he could be antsy now, wanting to rush everything to get it done... or something else is going on in his life. Either way I would fire him as a student and move on with life. What's the point in teaching if they won't listen.
 
First of all, has either CFI mentioned had a heart to heart with the student? Explain to the student that his progress has regressed and is not satisfactory? Obviously something going on in his life. I'd try having this chat first, with the Chief Instructor in attendance if there is one. If he still is defiant, and unwilling to change his negative attitude, then I would not do either #1 or #2. That leaves #3 and if it can't be impressed upon him enough that he is about to be dropped from any further training because of his attitude, then I would recommend termination. I don't see what else the either CFI can do at this point, and I definitely would not be signing him off for his check ride.
 
If I were to hazard a guess based on what you described, I wouldn't be surprised if someone put a little bug in his ear. Meaning that perhaps someone gave him the idea that he was being jerked around. You might ask him if he thinks he's being jerked around and where he got that idea.
 
bobmrg said:
Choice 2 or 3, but certainly not 1. Why should the instructor's record take a hit just to make a point?
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Yeah, don't take the hit on 1. I'd do 3 if the guy doesn't want to learn. Let him find #2 on his own.
 
I'm going with either drugs, a crazy girlfriend, or he thinks you're shining him on for money.

How else can a kid go from wide eyed and eager to circumspect and indignant?

Let him go or have a heart to heart.
 
Keep going the same path, let the student quit or go to another instructor on his own.
 
mscard88 said:
First of all, has either CFI mentioned had a heart to heart with the student? Explain to the student that his progress has regressed and is not satisfactory? Obviously something going on in his life..
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Ya, I'm with MSCard, where is the "Hey man what's going on with you?" questions? Looks like a little personal and friendly attention is needed. So Mr. Rogers those CFI shoes and slip into some buddy shoes. That may get you the correct solution.
 
No way do I recommend someone for a ride knowing they are going to bust, that's BS.

Have a come to Jesus with the guy, if he keeps below PTS and keeps up with he attitude, tell him you're not going to be able to work with him anymore.
 
saratoga2250 said:
Prior to entering the final stage in training, where we "smooth out the edges" in preparation for the checkride, the student starts becoming defiant with his instructor. It first begins with tardiness but soon thereafter extends to behavior exhibited during pre-lesson briefings, such as simply refusing to sit down when his instructor invitingly says, "Come on in and have a seat." The instructor shrugs this off a few times, but soon realizes the student's body language indicates he is eager to leave the briefing. He points his feet at the door, checks his watch, and is easily distracted by the smallest movements outside the window or outside the door.
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Why ?
 
Sounds like a clinical case of drug use, or there are serious problms at home.

He's turned 180 degrees. If, somehow you could demonsrate to him that
you really care about him, forget the flying, you might get him to share
what's troubling him. Let him know he doesn't have to be specific, but just, in general terms, acknowledge that therehas been a disruption in his
life.

Love never fails.

Jim
 
alfadog said:
If I were to hazard a guess based on what you described, I wouldn't be surprised if someone put a little bug in his ear. Meaning that perhaps someone gave him the idea that he was being jerked around. You might ask him if he thinks he's being jerked around and where he got that idea.
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My thought exactly!! He thinks you are dragging this out and milking him needlessly. I'm going with alfadog on this one.

Whether you are or are not is irrelevant, have the frank discussion, because of course we are all guessing what's going thru his mind.
 
People start out knowing they know nothing. As time goes on they start to know something. To some people they think they know more than they do. I'd say you have a narcissist on your hands. I'd terminate training.
 
Captain said:
People start out knowing they know nothing. As time goes on they start to know something. To some people they think they know more than they do. I'd say you have a narcissist on your hands. I'd terminate training.
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Pot.... Kettle.... Black....:rolleyes:
 
A little knowledge with an over abundance of ego,is dangerous.Its time to let the student move on.
 
Use the force, I mean your cfi training. The official faa answer is you hold students like that up to the standard. Simple. A nice chat reminding him of what the pts standard is that he needs to meet is of course part of pre-flight-briefing.
 
Archammer said:
So Mr. Rogers those CFI shoes and slip into some buddy shoes. That may get you the correct solution.
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zomg! Too funny!

Remember him interviewing a bass player?

 
Start your next lesson with a talk about recognizing hazardous attitudes. He's a young guy? Full of youth, testosterone and invincibility? Teach him. Teach him well. Don't quit on him just because he thinks the world already did. Learn something valuable about yourself and acquire a new teazching skill aling the way. Get through to him. A mind is a tertible thing to waste. :)
 
david-carradine.jpg
 
I didn't see it in any of the posts but a question I have is:

How old is the student?

Having worked with students from age 14 to 54, there are different ways of dealing with the situation.
 
Well, the instructor could just have a serious talk with the student and ask point blank what's going on... but it's more fun to free associate assumptions about people we've never met.

Personally I think he's been listening to that rock music and the devil got ahold of him.
 
alfadog said:
You might ask him if he thinks he's being jerked around and where he got that idea.
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PoA?

He needs a "Come to Jesus" talk. Sit him down and tell him that with his attitude you aren't signing him to go test because he isn't going to pass it. If he refuses, move to #3 and let another instructor deal with him. Something needs to shake his ego.

He isn't ready to go fly, he has an elevated chance of converting himself into a crater.
 
Could be a money issue... Could be age.

To the op. Can you afford to waive your fees for a flight? Tell him you're going to waive your fees for next lesson and have availability for what you want to pre brief/fly/de brief. It may be feeling like he's being milked for money but if you can take money out of it for him then you'll see.
 
Put him through a mock checkride, start to finish. Then honestly critique each and every maneuver and how he fared. Then ask him if he really wants to spend $300-500 on an examiner just to fail?
 
LDJones said:
Put him through a mock checkride, start to finish. Then honestly critique each and every maneuver and how he fared. Then ask him if he really wants to spend $300-500 on an examiner just to fail?
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Good idea, but even better, have him do it with a flight instructor of his choice because, after all, you're jacking him around :mad2:
 
saracelica said:
Could be a money issue... Could be age.

To the op. Can you afford to waive your fees for a flight? Tell him you're going to waive your fees for next lesson and have availability for what you want to pre brief/fly/de brief. It may be feeling like he's being milked for money but if you can take money out of it for him then you'll see.
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I really like this idea, I was tempted to write a hypothetical "story about obnoxious instructor" from the possible student's point of view. But I figured it would come off slightly pretentious (or more than slightly). Diagnosing the problem requires isolating possible sources of the problem. If (and I don't know) he's paid for some 60 hours or so of instruction and he's still "not ready" to be signed off, but he has passed the written >85 or so and soloed <20hrs. He may very well feel like his instructor is jerking him around. It's possible that he's starting cocaine so he's edgy, he could be getting into arguments with his wife because this was supposed to cost $8,000 but now it's pushing $15,000 and she wants him to quit because "this is our money you're wasting." Who knows.

BUT unless the CFI is willing to actually put in effort to diagnose the situation we'll all just be left speculating and saying that the student is the source of the problem. Which is easy enough to say, but the wisdom of the ancients is wiser still "The first to plead his case seems right, until another comes and examines him." Because this is all people I don't know, the only examination the CFI has at his availability is self-examination. How do you think the student would feel and why? If it's not worth the effort to do that...maybe the teacher is the problem?

Of course an attitude of "both instructors have records of success and are awesome" (paraphrased) would suggest that self-examination may be unlikely to be helpful. I just checked myself... Yes I am awesome!
 
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LDJones said:
Put him through a mock checkride, start to finish. Then honestly critique each and every maneuver and how he fared. Then ask him if he really wants to spend $300-500 on an examiner just to fail?
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I agreed with this. I scheduled the student to be evaluated by my chief instructor, who is a retired military instructor. I did not give my chief any pointers. I simply asked him to go up with the student and see what he thought. His critiques were nearly identical to mine.

The mistakes the student makes are not ones examiners will look over. He continually fails to receive the ATIS on departure and arrival, for one. Another example is a failure to run the before landing checklist every time. I purposely flew us 25 miles away while we practiced maneuvers. We flew 15 straight miles on the way in, prior to contacting tower 10 miles from the field, and he did not once think to run the before landing checklist. On top of that, we were at 6,500, so I had him running the engine with a properly leaned mixture, which was never reset to rich for landing at our sea-level airport. And because it was a Cherokee, where the fuel pump should be on, the pump was left off for landing, too.
 
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What were his rationalizations for not getting ATIS or running the before landing checklist, fuel pump, etc? I'll bet it was something along the lines of "I already know those things are fine because blah blah blah..." This student needs a healthy dose of boot on his backside.
 
gov98 said:
I really like this idea, I was tempted to write a hypothetical "story about obnoxious instructor" from the possible student's point of view.
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I totally see where you are coming from with this point of view, because the fact is there are some instructors out there who gouge students for flight time and what not. That is not my goal. I'm not even in this for flight time.

The feeling I get is he believes I take this job too seriously, as if the maneuvers are not that important. To a student who has never taken the time to read about why checkrides are failed, this is probably normal. My critiques are detailed, but I am by nature a level-headed instructor. I am not one to insult students or be known as the "tough guy" instructor or anything like that.

The fact is, the student is being flippant about the tolerances in the PTS, and thinks because he can plop the plane down on the runway at the end of every flight, that is enough. It simply is not enough.
 
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saratoga2250 said:
I agreed with this. I scheduled the student to be evaluated by my chief instructor, who is a retired military instructor. I did not give my chief any pointers. I simply asked him to go up with the student and see what he thought. His critiques were nearly identical to mine.

The mistakes the student makes are not ones examiners will look over. He continually fails to receive the ATIS on departure and arrival, for one. Another example is a failure to run the before landing checklist every time. I purposely flew us 25 miles away while we practiced maneuvers. We flew 15 straight miles on the way in, prior to contacting tower 10 miles from the field, and he did not once think to run the before landing checklist. On top of that, we were at 6,500, so I had him running the engine with a properly leaned mixture, which was never reset to rich for landing at our sea-level airport. And because it was a Cherokee, where the fuel pump should be on, the pump was left off for landing, too.
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Forgetting the departure ATIS is forgiveable, more so if it's CAVU, and maybe forget an occasional arrival ATIS, but not if it's EVERY time and he never checks it without being told to. That's just kinda dumb and weird for a 60 hour student.

He should have ATIS down and be using it. Maybe his radio skills need work?

Forgetting the mixture could be a one-off. I've done it and I'll own up to it, it speaks for using a checklist.:) If it was this one flight and he was tense about whatever the hell this situation is, I wouldn't ding him for forgetting the mixture. jm.02$
 
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Lachlan said:
What were his rationalizations for not getting ATIS or running the before landing checklist, fuel pump, etc? I'll bet it was something along the lines of "I already know those things are fine because blah blah blah..." This student needs a healthy dose of boot on his backside.
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With regard to the mixture and fuel pump, the time most people would realize they forgot this step is the after-landing checklist, when the pump is turned off and the mixture is again leaned. He did not realize he had these two items improperly configured even after running the after-landing checklist when they had to be adjusted.

Regarding the ATIS, this is even worse. With my chief, he called the tower 10 miles out and excluded the ATIS on the initial call. The tower controller, as heard on LiveATC, called out to the pilot three times asking "Do you have information _____ ?" In the words of my chief, the student "blew the tower off." The chief had to step in and tell the tower he was a trainee and would grab the ATIS -- then had to instruct the student to get the ATIS.
 
txflyer;2001927[B said:
]Forgetting the departure ATIS is forgiveable, more so if it's CAVU, and maybe forget an occasional arrival ATIS, but not if it's EVERY time and he never checks it without being told to. That's just kinda dumb and weird for a 60 hour student.[/B]

He should have ATIS down and be using it. Maybe his radio skills need work?

Forgetting the mixture could be a one-off. I've done it and I'll own up to it, it speaks for using a checklist.:) If it was this one flight and he was tense about whatever the hell this situation is, I wouldn't ding him for forgetting the mixture. jm.02$
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Agreed..... And usually ATIS is for a towered field and the tower will request he get it before entering their airspace...

Now an uncontrolled field will have an ASOS or AWOS..... Regardless,, the student needs to find another hobby..
 
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