Story About a Defiant Student

alfadog said:
If I were to hazard a guess based on what you described, I wouldn't be surprised if someone put a little bug in his ear. Meaning that perhaps someone gave him the idea that he was being jerked around. You might ask him if he thinks he's being jerked around and where he got that idea.
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This is what we're starting to believe. Unfortunately he's only around 45 hours, and unless he thinks I'm some sort of 40-hour miracle worker for everyone but him, it's irrational. The student is 20, and I am in my mid-20s.

I appreciate the comments about the other three options. I don't have time to go through each, but they are all thoughtful remarks.
 
N801BH said:
Agreed..... And usually ATIS is for a towered field and the tower will request he get it before entering their airspace...

Now an uncontrolled field will have an ASOS or AWOS..... Regardless,, the student needs to find another hobby..
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Yep, if the controller is a Brit, he's going to be calling you a bloddy ****ing wanka and you may get a phone number to call after you arrive. :rolleyes2:
 
saratoga2250 said:
This is what we're starting to believe. Unfortunately he's only around 45 hours, and unless he thinks I'm some sort of 40-hour miracle worker for everyone but him, it's irrational. The student is 20, and I am in my mid-20s.

I appreciate the comments about the other three options. I don't have time to go through each, but they are all thoughtful remarks.
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.... I appreciated your responses they were level headed and thought out. I suspect the issue may very well be he's 20 and you're in your mid 20s. He may need a different instructor who 10 or more years older than him. The student may very well not have a sufficient degree of respect for you because you are too close in age.
 
I don't think it is age as much as maturity level. In my life I've met some very mature 20 year olds and also very immature 40 year olds.

DPEs already assume the students know how to perform the PTS or the instructor wouldn't have endorsed them for the exam. In my limited experience in the pilot world, a DPE's main concern is "is the pilot safe" rather than holding altitude in a steep turn. Not getting the ATIS before or at the end of a flight is not safe in my opinion. It is as basic as sumping the fuel tanks during a pre-flight.

Just my opinion and its worth exactly what you paid for it.
 
The fact you let him land without enrichening the mixture may have just reinforced his thinking that the check list is bogus.

Sounds like based on his attitude and what you are saying I would do several in-depth accident studies. A couple together and a couple for homework. If he is willing to do the accident analysis homework that would be a step in the right direction. If not, cut him loose.
 
I was an "antsy" young man as a student when I was 19-20 also. Always had my "homework" done, ready to just "go flying" and didn't want to "waste time", all similar.

I like Jonesy's idea of a mock checkride but that could backfire if he has a "good day" and puff up the ego more.

What he really needs, and I don't know how to tell ya to get this, is two things...

CFI who can really out-fly his ass. Stuff like "Ok, land it on one wheel then, now that you've mastered two..." and spins to an assigned heading. I'm not kidding. My initial CFI had to make sure I knew I was NOT the master of the aircraft that I thought I was and he had the skillset to do so. I loved every minute of it because it was a *challenge* to my dumb little 19 year old ego.

Second, he needs to have been flying long enough to see something seemingly innocuous kill someone else and have the instructor point out that what they did was something he's also not great at. Doesn't have to be a direct correlation, just enough that he applies it to his own flying and thought process. Yeah, that's crappy to say, I know, but nothing like seeing someone bite it and realizing "Hey, that could have been me..."

But it's very hard to "schedule" that second one. And of course, nobody would even want to. But I'll admit that seeing a couple of people bite it on beautiful CAVU days really got my attention at that age. Busts up the young-man invincibility complex pretty well.

Meanwhile as far as the briefing aversion goes, just make him start showing up fully briefed and challenge him on it. That's the ultimate goal anyway, right? Turn it into a "prove you're ready to go flying" session instead of feeling like a mandatory "sit in the chair" thing. And grill him on his pre-flight. Got a written TOLD sheet? What's the weather here like? What's the forecast? How about where we are going? Is the airplane ready? How do you know? Turn it into a bet. If you know something they don't know in the NOTAMs or about the flight, they owe you a Diet Coke. Or whatever works. You can beat that one out of him.

Once aloft, no diversion from the PTS. Everything is "PTS or better." If he whines about the "better", ask him if he plans to fly as well as a Commercal pilot, and switch to the Commercial PTS when he gets cocky.

Again, it's breaking the assumption that he can fly better than anyone else. Once he learns there's always someone who can fly better, then you have something you can work with.

Just my thoughts as a once-too-cocky 19-20 year old. Worked for me.
 
I dnno, a couple of "deer" on the runway or an "engine failure" on the downwind turn may get his attention.

There is nothing quite like not being able to climb at full power 'cause the flaps are still full, as a reminder that checklists and flows have a purpose.

Maybe take him to a nontowered field when the wind is "backwards," let him try the inevitable downwind landing, and take over or have him go around when he's halfway down the runway.
 
denverpilot said:
Meanwhile as far as the briefing aversion goes, just make him start showing up fully briefed and challenge him on it. That's the ultimate goal anyway, right? Turn it into a "prove you're ready to go flying" session instead of feeling like a mandatory "sit in the chair" thing. And grill him on his pre-flight. Got a written TOLD sheet? What's the weather here like? What's the forecast? How about where we are going? Is the airplane ready? How do you know? Turn it into a bet. If you know something they don't know in the NOTAMs or about the flight, they owe you a Diet Coke. Or whatever works. You can beat that one out of him.

Once aloft, no diversion from the PTS. Everything is "PTS or better." If he whines about the "better", ask him if he plans to fly as well as a Commercal pilot, and switch to the Commercial PTS when he gets cocky.

Again, it's breaking the assumption that he can fly better than anyone else. Once he learns there's always someone who can fly better, then you have something you can work with.

Just my thoughts as a once-too-cocky 19-20 year old. Worked for me.
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This is a great idea, and happens to coincide with the weather tomorrow. We are flying from 1700-1900Z tomorrow. The forecast discussion is calling for ceilings to become IFR at 1800Z; prior to that it will be VFR. In the worst case scenario where he makes the decision to depart, I'll pick up IFR on the way in. Temps will be well above freezing during the forecast IFR period, which makes this a safe learning opportunity.

This seems to fit with the other responses, too. Will let you all know how it goes.
 
saratoga2250 said:
The mistakes the student makes are not ones examiners will look over. He continually fails to receive the ATIS on departure and arrival, for one. Another example is a failure to run the before landing checklist every time. I purposely flew us 25 miles away while we practiced maneuvers. We flew 15 straight miles on the way in, prior to contacting tower 10 miles from the field, and he did not once think to run the before landing checklist. On top of that, we were at 6,500, so I had him running the engine with a properly leaned mixture, which was never reset to rich for landing at our sea-level airport. And because it was a Cherokee, where the fuel pump should be on, the pump was left off for landing, too.
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Had you not said he was 20 years old, I would have likely pinned it on life distractions. However, he is probably just antsy to get his certificate and take his friends up. He's likely been promising them "FOREVER!" and he hasn't delivered yet. It is incredibly hard to teach a 20 year old man patience as well as vulnerability.

He almost needs to be scared. I've seen people forget to richen the mixture and then need to go around. It's not pretty. Maybe he needs to run a tank dry (at altitude) to learn the reasons we have checklists and procedures.
 
So, I'll give my perspective here. I passed my PPL checkride back in July of last year. I was never defiant, but I did go through a period when I thought I was 'ready' and my instructor did not.

Maybe consider doing a 'mock-checkride' with the second (or possibly a third) instructor. Have him prepare a flight plan. Do the simulated flight into IMC. Go through all the maneuvers in the PTS standard. The instructor issuing the mock checkride takes notes, and then does a debrief with the student to let him know all the areas where he was deficient. This is where the real candid dialogue needs to happen where the student will hopefully come to realize that he is not ready.

It is frustrating being on the student end when you think you are ready, and you have this nagging feeling in the back of your mind that your instructor just might be dragging your training out to make more money.
 
denverpilot said:
So how'd it go?
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I was so relieved today. He showed up and did everything well within PTS standards.

I made him check the forecast, which he had not yet done when he arrived, but it showed solid VFR conditions through our flight time, and I concurred with his decision to go (even though I didn't admit it at the time). As the forecast discussion suggested might happen, the ceilings deteriorated once we got outside the Delta. We briefly entered the ragged bases, and I was happy to see he made the decision to cruise lower, to apply the 500 feet below rule, and decide not to demonstrate maneuvers/procedures that required a higher altitude. It was a very safe decision that did not require me to intervene.

His checkride is on Saturday pending one more review of the higher altitude maneuvers later this week. It is a great feeling to see him finish up.
 
I've heard that if a CFI sends so many students for a checkride and they fail, it makes the CFI look bad, and they may even get investigated. Now I only heard someone say this (about being investigated) it may or not be factual, just word of mouth. But if it is true, I wonder if it applies when being sent to an FAA DPE, especially as the instructor can call the DPE ahead of time and make them aware of the situation.
 
I think 2nd and third are the better options. To give him a last chance by providing another instructor is the best choice.
 
DMD3. said:
I've heard that if a CFI sends so many students for a checkride and they fail, it makes the CFI look bad, and they may even get investigated. Now I only heard someone say this (about being investigated) it may or not be factual, just word of mouth.

Yes a CFI with a lot of unsats can be forced in to a check ride, or even have his/her certificate revoked.


But if it is true, I wonder if it applies when being sent to an FAA DPE, especially as the instructor can call the DPE ahead of time and make them aware of the situation.
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Why would a CFI do that? If the applicant is not ready, for whatever reason, and the CFI sent the applicant forward anyway, the DPE or FAA examiner I would think, would not have a unfavorable view of the recommending CFI. My opinion anyway.
 
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There is something that I learned (in my professional life) that was taught to me by a 2nd level manager when were deciding on a course of action, and my solution was different than his by a wide margin, and he was (and still is) older and wiser than me:

"Disagree, but comply."

It wasn't said at 5,000 feet, but it was good advice, when I had strong opinions that were different than the person in charge. I still voice my opinion (even to leaders of the company I currently work for), but as I start learning how to fly, that is what I will use.

In the case of that leader that I disagreed with, I was right, but I did respect his thinking on the solution to the problem, and he respected that I had offered it up, but was willing to submit myself to his experience and knowledge.
 
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