Still messing up the flare

D

dreaming89

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Benjamin
I posted on here two months ago about flare issues i was having. Well, not much has changed since. I'm wondering if maybe i should try another plane besides a 172? I know these are the easiest to fly but a change might be good. What do you all recommend? Ive tried a couple different instructors and still no luck
 
What would you describe is your biggest problem?
Are you pulling up too much and ballooning? Are you landing flat?
 
I'm doing both. What makes it worse is that it is not consistent so it is hard to pin point the issue. Ive listened to advice from everyone on how to correct it but i can't bring it to consistency
 
Try another instructor, preferably very senior, for a change in perspective. One lesson, or even one landing, may make all the difference (BTDT!).
 
You could try a low wing,and another instructor for a different opinion of you strengths and weaknesses.Dont give up it will come to you.
 
MAKG1 said:
Try another instructor, preferably very senior, for a change in perspective. One lesson, or even one landing, may make all the difference (BTDT!).
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I agree. A "very senior" (i.e. the oldest, crustiest instructor you can find) might have a different perspective that could unlock the mystery for you.
Keep at it.
 
dreaming89 said:
I'm doing both. What makes it worse is that it is not consistent so it is hard to pin point the issue. Ive listened to advice from everyone on how to correct it but i can't bring it to consistency
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Where are your eyes looking when flaring through touch down? Is your trim set exactly the same for each flight? Do you always come in with the same speed and flaps?
 
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tangopapa said:
I agree. A "very senior" (i.e. the oldest, crustiest instructor you can find) might have a different perspective that could unlock the mystery for you.
Keep at it.
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Actually, I just meant with a lot of hours instructing. That doesn't necessarily mean old.

The "BTDT" I referred to was with a 2000+ hour full time instructor in his late 20s, significantly younger than me. And it took one landing for him to figure out I was on the brakes. The regular instructor assumed "heels on the floor" was enough. It wasn't. I can actuate toe brakes on a Cessna single with my heels on the floor.

It's amazing how much better soft field landings are without light brakes.
 
Trim, trim, trim, all the way down final, all the way... The biggest problem people have with landing is not putting in enough trim. In a 172 with 2 up front and nothing in the back, by the time you hit the bottom of final you should have almost all the trim rolled into it.
 
Henning said:
Trim, trim, trim, all the way down final, all the way... The biggest problem people have with landing is not putting in enough trim. In a 172 with 2 up front and nothing in the back, by the time you hit the bottom of final you should have almost all the trim rolled into it.
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172 with 2 up front will fly at best glide speed with trim full back and engine on idle.
 
dreaming89 said:
I posted on here two months ago about flare issues i was having. Well, not much has changed since. I'm wondering if maybe i should try another plane besides a 172? I know these are the easiest to fly but a change might be good. What do you all recommend? Ive tried a couple different instructors and still no luck
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I actually had better luck in a cherokee 180. IMO, the cherokee floated less for me, and that worked better in my situation.
 
mtuomi said:
172 with 2 up front will fly at best glide speed with trim full back and engine on idle.
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Right, with no flaps, when full flaps are in it gives right about the proper speed for short final and will make it a lot easier to finesse the nose up and keep it there as the plane settles in than being trimmed for being 10 kts too fast which is the cause of the problems he is describing. I'm betting he isn't listening to the stall horn in the flare, and he should be.
 
My speed is always 60-70 knots on final. My instructor has said trim has nothing to do with the flare but maybe next time ill try with trim full back. Thanks for the tip
 
On a Cherokee 140 you want two notches of positive trim, full flaps on final.

Henning said:
Trim, trim, trim, all the way down final, all the way... The biggest problem people have with landing is not putting in enough trim. In a 172 with 2 up front and nothing in the back, by the time you hit the bottom of final you should have almost all the trim rolled into it.
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Trim has nothing to do with the flare but a flare is alot easier when the plane is trimmed correctly for the approach :)

I find 172 a bit of a handful on flare with trim set to neutral, but a dream when its trimmed all the way back, just like Henning suggests. Just need to remember the control forces in case of a go-around.
 
dreaming89 said:
My speed is always 60-70 knots on final. My instructor has said trim has nothing to do with the flare but maybe next time ill try with trim full back. Thanks for the tip
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See if you can control that speed range better. The plane will flair considerable different with 60 knot and 70 knots. Also when trimmed correctly the speed will not fluctuate as much and you can maintain it all the way down.

The flair is the end of the landing but you might be doing or not doing things in the setup phase of landing which is effecting the end game.

Always stuck with me that my CFI said Airlines setup their decent at the earliest point and then make no or very minor adjustments the closer to the ground they get. So focusing on setting up the plane for landing with good trim, effects speed control, decent control, then you just stay lined up and wait for it.....the flair will always look the same.

If you sometimes arrive at 62 knots and other times 66 knots then the flair is going to be different.
 
dreaming89 said:
My speed is always 60-70 knots on final. My instructor has said trim has nothing to do with the flare but maybe next time ill try with trim full back. Thanks for the tip
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70 is too fast and trim is EVERYTHING on final, it's what controls your speed for you instead of your wrist and bicep. Here's something for you to try on your next flight. Do some power off stalls on your way to the pattern, note the speed at stall. Go into the POH/AFM and look at the CAS-IAS conversion table going in on IAS and finding CAS. Take that number and multiply by 1.2& 1.3, go back into the table and work those numbers backwards. Before you get halfway down final, you should be stabilized on the 1.3 number. As you cross the threshold you should be coming down to the 1.2 number and be trimmed up. You should be listening to the stall horn as you hear the tire bark.
 
If everything else is good on your approach (speed is on, etc) try flying with your CFI in ground effect a good length of the runway without touching down. Have your CFI control the throttle to keep you from touching. This gives more time to get the right "feel" and to establish the right pitch attitude. Then when the throttle is slowly backed off, you're all ready for a good landing.
 
Find that "experienced instructor" who has a couple of thousand hours in a light tailwheel aircraft and have him teach you what the "feel" of an aircraft is. after a few exciting TW landings, you will have the facts of flying sorted out in your head and the 172 will be easy! I think neither flair nor flare is your problem, you just have too much time on your hands and are overplaying one aspect of the landing process.
 
70 knots in a 172?

That's the problem.

60 works a lot better, with full flap.

The variability is VERY likely the result of not trimming, as has been mentioned. Trim will make or break your approach. It's not optional, at least not if you want to land acceptably.
 
Best idea is to slow up it keep it at 55 60 and get it in there and feel it. Maybe even come in a little low close to safe zone of course to give yourself time to see how it should feel and where to be when your landing. I'm so new but know all the frustrations. Good luck most of all slow it up 70 is too fast I think for you to react and get a good landing. Is there a 152 over there?
 
55 in a 172 is a bit on the slow side. It works real well for a 152.

It's not so much a reaction time thing. It's that you spend a lot more time floating, at best, and it's difficult to get the aircraft down in the first place.
 
dreaming89 said:
My speed is always 60-70 knots on final. My instructor has said trim has nothing to do with the flare but maybe next time ill try with trim full back. Thanks for the tip
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The bolded could be part of the problem. And he say's trim has nothing to do with the flare? Wel....ok then:rolleyes:
 
The key to having a good landing is flying a good, on-speed approach (the result of a proper pitch attitude and trim setting, which should change everytime you touch the throttle or change airspeed) into ground effect, levelling off in ground effect, and constantly adding back pressure until the airplane doesn't want to fly anymore. Knowing approximately where ground effect starts can help you judge when to start the round out and flare and also make sure you enter ground effect on airspeed. If you're too fast, you'll float and if you're too slow, you'll run out of energy for the flare.
 
I do 65-70 kts on final with about 1,500 rpm -- after idling the engine it translates to about 60 over the numbers and 50-55 wheels down.

To the OP, hang in there. I was struggling for the longest time with this, and one day it all just came together.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Where are your eyes looking when flaring through touch down? ......
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I haven't seen an answer to this.

Picking my eyes up and looking down the runway (vs spotting my landing point) took away the rush of speed which loosens everything else thereby making things smooth.

I'm a former motorcycle racer and I used that principle. It should have occurred to me sooner in the pilot seat, the instructor had to tell me lol.
 
dreaming89 said:
I posted on here two months ago about flare issues i was having. Well, not much has changed since. I'm wondering if maybe i should try another plane besides a 172? I know these are the easiest to fly but a change might be good. What do you all recommend? Ive tried a couple different instructors and still no luck
Click to expand...
I found your thread and read it. Lots of reasonable advice, but I bet the problem is you have a certain idea in your mind of what a good landing is supposed to look and feel like and you haven't responded to instruction that's telling you different. If you don't change, neither will your landings. Try these sentiments on for size:
"I want to see the runway ahead, like I do in my car."
"I want to 'set it down' at the right spot."
"I want to land smoothly."
"I don't want extreme stick positions or forces while landing--easy does it."​
If these fit your mind-set, they're your problem.

Your eyes need to relax and move around. On final, look around and take in the changing perspective. Anticipate the nose rising as you break your descent and lose speed, blocking your view. Lean closer to the side window and look ahead past the raised nose.

You don't 'set it down' (unless wheel landing a taildragger), you 'hold it off'. Never let it touch. Squeeze out all the 'lift' and let it fall out of the sky, one inch to the ground.

Don't think about smoothly landing, think about landing slowly--as slow as it'll go or you fail.

As your speed falls off, stick position becomes more extreme. The elevator forces become heavy because your trim is set for your approach speed. Either use more trim or a slower approach speed.

If you can't seem to train your mind then you need to take a hiatus before you go broke or give up--or become a really bad pilot with no feel for the plane.

Or... I might be all wrong. You might need better glasses.

dtuuri
 
My problem was not knowing the sight picture and my landings were flat. Have you had your instructor do a landing for you while looking at the sight picture? Maybe you're sitting too close or too low or something along those lines. That's just my personal experience after feeling stuck with no progress for months. Even though I changed instructors with an older more experience one he didn't catch it, but after doing my first good landing I figured it out and put it out as a suggestion.
 
dtuuri said:
Or... I might be all wrong. You might need better glasses.
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That's just it. No one here can see what the poster is doing/not doing much less seeing/not seeing.

We know his instructor is not helping by telling him that trim doesn't matter. Much beyond that is a crap shoot. Where's the OP based? maybe somebody can fly with him and help out?
 
Thanks again everyone for the advice. This forum has an incredible wealth of knowledge that never ceases to amaze me. But above that, everyone is very encouraging and positive which I appreciate a lot.

something needs to change no doubt. I'm looking for a flight school in NJ with a piper Cherokee. Anyone know of any? Or another low wing alternative. I don't blame the 172 for my troubles, but I'm just growing tired of the same old stuff. I've tried fixing what I do but I always seem to over correct. Then, when I over correct I counter that by going easy on the controls. Then, when I go easy on the controls is when I end up bouncing the thing because the ground comes up way too fast. Can you see where my mind is at? An endless cycle of FAIL. 30 hours worth.
 
All my experience in flying except for 2 hours is in either a 172 or 182 so I do not know if changing to a low wing is the answer or not. However I think it is important that you realized its not the plane but the technique.

I took a while to learn to land and it was a combination of a number of things that made it click. My instructor for whatever reason prefers high speeds on landing and never gave me a good answer why. Even now when I have used her for recurrent training she insists I am too slow on final, which is always 1.3. This is about the most important thing. Using trim is second most important. I am a variable flap guy and use different amounts of flaps depending on the wind, however in training I would recommend full flaps. The sight picture is also important. Remember what the picture looks like when you have taken off and are still in ground effect, that is what it should like as you begin to flare. Look far ahead down the runway, not at the cowl or just in front. Lastly, let the plane land, do not rush it. If you set it up right, as the speed reduces the plane will settle and almost land itself, just as the stall warning blares.

Talk to your instructor about what everyone is saying here, it may help him and you. Landing is probably the most challenging and difficult thing, and I am closing in on 500 hrs now, and still am learning to land. After every flight I spend time debriefing myself, and figuring out what went right and what went wrong, and how I can promote the good and fix the bad. This is actually one of the thing I love about flying, it always challenges me to do my best.

If talking to you instructor does not work it may be time for a new one, but it concerns me that you seem to have been through a number of instructors already. Something seems not to be clicking, and this may also be the place to discuss with your instructor why it is difficult for you to learn.

Don't give up. It will come.
 
Go fly do a few laps in the pattern with a working ATP freight, 135 pilot, AG, etc (if you can find one).
 
like others have said, maybe try a new instructor (not that your instructor is bad), but just to tet a different perspective. some helpful hints that have helped me are looking down the runway, pulling the power back when you are across the numbers (granted you are at landing speed), and use small corrections
 
It's my opinion that, before you try any other suggestions, you should focus on nailing your speed, and better use of trim, in that order.

My landings got so much better when I accepted nothing less than nailing my approach speed. Look in the POH yourself. It may give a speed range, probably 60-70 kts or so. Take the lower number (assuming calm wind), and absolutely nail that speed on final. Accept nothing less.

Make a smooth round out, hold it off as long as possible, and then see how you've done. There's a good possibility that speed control is nearly the entirety of your issue, and my hunch is based on your admission that you generally shoot for 60-70 knots. I did the same thing, and you know what? It caused sloppy flying. 60-70 meant sometimes I came in at 70ish. Maybe it was 72, but at least I was close, right? That's way too fast in these 172s. Caused me all kinds of trouble. The plane isn't ready to land, it floats, you're in the air longer which means more time to screw things up, you're landing flatter, you get antsy and want to set it down, you give up on the landing because it's taking too long, etc. etc.

I'd give it another go with the same instructor. Pull out the POH before hand. Take a look at the approach speeds. Tell him/her you'd like to try nailing 60 knots and see if your landings improve. He/she will likely not protest, because after all it's right there in the POH.

Nail your speed, get your trim in, see how you do, and let us know how it goes.
 
asechrest said:
It's my opinion that, before you try any other suggestions, you should focus on nailing your speed, and better use of trim, in that order.

My landings got so much better when I accepted nothing less than nailing my approach speed. Look in the POH yourself. It may give a speed range, probably 60-70 kts or so. Take the lower number (assuming calm wind), and absolutely nail that speed on final. Accept nothing less.

Make a smooth round out, hold it off as long as possible, and then see how you've done. There's a good possibility that speed control is nearly the entirety of your issue, and my hunch is based on your admission that you generally shoot for 60-70 knots. I did the same thing, and you know what? It caused sloppy flying. 60-70 meant sometimes I came in at 70ish. Maybe it was 72, but at least I was close, right? That's way too fast in these 172s. Caused me all kinds of trouble. The plane isn't ready to land, it floats, you're in the air longer which means more time to screw things up, you're landing flatter, you get antsy and want to set it down, you give up on the landing because it's taking too long, etc. etc.

I'd give it another go with the same instructor. Pull out the POH before hand. Take a look at the approach speeds. Tell him/her you'd like to try nailing 60 knots and see if your landings improve. He/she will likely not protest, because after all it's right there in the POH.

Nail your speed, get your trim in, see how you do, and let us know how it goes.
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This post right here. :yes:
 
Load a backpack up with 30 or 40 pounds of books and toss it in the baggage compartment, it'll help a bit.

The thing about trim on the Cessna, or any airplane with a servo tab, is that by cranking in full nose up you are removing the surface area of the trim tab from your total elevator surface area making it less effective when you pull back on the yoke. Also it can be a bear if you have to go around because the nose is going to shoot up when you pour on the coals.

Another possible solution is have a buddy ride in the back seat.
 
Do. Not. Give. Up.

Search for my thread on wanting to quit to get some geat suggestions, maybe one of those will work for you.
 
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