Still messing up the flare

Are you leveling off over the runway before starting the flare? You can't just go from decent to flare without the level off. The plane needs to bleed off the remaining speed. Flaring at 60 knots wil cause the plane to climb( that's rotation speed in a 172 so makes sense that it will not just settle on to the runway- it does not know you want it to land). Flaring at 47-52 knots( roughly) will result in a nice settle onto the runway.

I agree with speed on approach being key but I think it gets emphasized as the reason for why landings are not succesful on this board too much. My breakthrough came when I realized leveling off had to happen before the flare.

The 172 is easy to fly but will make a honest pilot out of you. I don't think running to a low wing plane will make any difference at all.
 
Where In nj are you, I am at kblm monmouth executive. Give me a shout on pm if we are local to each other.
 
jspilot said:
Are you leveling off over the runway before starting the flare? You can't just go from decent to flare without the level off. The plane needs to bleed off the remaining speed....

I agree with speed on approach being key but I think it gets emphasized as the reason for why landings are not succesful on this board too much. My breakthrough came when I realized leveling off had to happen before the flare....
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HOLY #&%+*$! THIS EXACTLY was what turned my landings around! Lots of great suggestions on PoA but it wasn't until I realized this concept that all the other things mentioned came together and made for 'decent' landings.
 
dreaming89 said:
Thanks again everyone for the advice. This forum has an incredible wealth of knowledge that never ceases to amaze me. But above that, everyone is very encouraging and positive which I appreciate a lot.

something needs to change no doubt. I'm looking for a flight school in NJ with a piper Cherokee. Anyone know of any? Or another low wing alternative. I don't blame the 172 for my troubles, but I'm just growing tired of the same old stuff. I've tried fixing what I do but I always seem to over correct. Then, when I over correct I counter that by going easy on the controls. Then, when I go easy on the controls is when I end up bouncing the thing because the ground comes up way too fast. Can you see where my mind is at? An endless cycle of FAIL. 30 hours worth.
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It really doesn't matter what plane you fly, if you are going too fast and not trimming, the same thing will happen. The over controlling (lack of finesse) is symptomatic of not being properly trimmed and requiring too much muscle force to combat the control pressures. What is disconcerting is your instructor saying trim doesn't matter on landing, that means your instructor hasn't really figured out how to fly either, so how can they be teaching what they don't really know? Do the speed test I suggested to find your proper approach speeds and then find the trim position to hold that. If you find yourself going high or low on final, adjust your glide path with the throttle and let the trim hold your speed.

Rather than change planes, I suggest you change instructors. If you have to do both, so be it, but the plane isn't the problem.
 
danpass said:
I haven't seen an answer to this.

Picking my eyes up and looking down the runway (vs spotting my landing point) took away the rush of speed which loosens everything else thereby making things smooth.

I'm a former motorcycle racer and I used that principle. It should have occurred to me sooner in the pilot seat, the instructor had to tell me lol.
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Ding ding ding! Combine proper trim/airspeed with looking far down the runway. If I find my landings degrading somewhat, it is always because I am not looking far enough down the runway.
 
Fly to the runway, fly 6 inches over the runway...keep flying until you aren't anymore. Just try to hold it off.

Airplanes will do a lot of things just fine by themselves when they are good and ready, we just need to give them the opportunity.
 
Henning said:
It really doesn't matter what plane you fly, if you are going too fast and not trimming, the same thing will happen.
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It matters, some. Not much, but enough in just the wrong way from what the poster wants.

Cherokees float like the dickens when you level off too fast. They are very similar to 172s at the correct approach speed. But the sight picture is noticeably different, so now you've thrown another variable in.

Switching planes when you have a problem is going to grind that problem into habit, if it isn't already there. This is a really bad idea.

The Piper transition is really easy if you have already mastered landings. But, when you're having trouble, that's just going to make you have more trouble.
 
I'm with Henning. Might as well learn to use trim to nail airspeed on final now, because if the OP ever transitions to a bigger, faster airplane he'll have to learn it then. You can muscle a Cherokee or 172 on short final pretty easy, but a 182 or Comanche yoke gets pretty darn heavy. Short final is no time to pick a fight with an airplane.
 
Most landing problems involve too much speed. For some reason, many people, including instructors, are afraid of stalling on final, so they pad the airspeed and teach their students to do it, too. The result includes ballooning, porpoising, floating, wheelbarrowing and so on, all of which break way more airplanes than stalls on final.

I understand that Americans teach only approach to stall, not full stalls, in flight training. If that's true, I can understand the fear a little. But one needs to go up (high) and apply approach flap and take the power off and bring the nose up until it stalls, and see the attitude and the airspeed indication. Both are WAY outside the normal landing experience.

1.2 Vso is plenty. 70 knots in a 172 is way too fast. And not flaring until reaching the surface is a mistake, too. You carry too much speed into ground effect.

Dan
 
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Come in with flaps and trimmed speed around 80. When you get right above the runway don't just pull back to flare. Pull back gently and put the nose on the horizon and hold it there. As you get slower you will have to pull the yoke more and more to keep the nose up until it stalls on the runway.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I understand that Americans teach only approach to stall, not full stalls, in flight training.
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When did this happen? Afaik stalls are still part of the pts. It's demonstrated spin reovery that was eliminated, and replaced with recognition of incipient spins and the conditions under which spins occur.

God I hope we're not certifying pilots without being able to demonstrate stall recovery.
 
Dan Thomas said:
...I understand that Americans teach only approach to stall, not full stalls, in flight training. If that's true,...
Dan
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Not true, you must do approach, departure and accelerated stalls. All are full stalls with recovery.
 
pigpenracing said:
Come in with flaps and trimmed speed around 80. When you get right above the runway don't just pull back to flare. Pull back gently and put the nose on the horizon and hold it there. As you get slower you will have to pull the yoke more and more to keep the nose up until it stalls on the runway.
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80?! Really?
 
mtuomi said:
80?! Really?
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It amazes me how many pilots are afraid of the lower end of the envelope.:nonod: That is the most important place to be comfortable, no only because it's conducive to good landings, but also because it's where you need to be to increase your chances of a good outcome when it all goes wrong and you have to return to the surface in an unplanned, unprepared location.
 
MAKG1 said:
I think he means MPH, and he is doing absolutely no one the slightest bit of good by leaving that very important detail out. It's still a little fast for a 172.
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Still over 70kts, way fast, not a little fast.
 
Get a CFI to land the plane several times in a row with you doing nothing but looking out the window to burn the site picture into your mind for what you should be seeing. Then try it yourself.

When you are working on landings it's easy to have "so much" happening that you just can't process what you should be seeing.

Practice at altitude- setting up for landing, bringing the cowling to the horizon and then holding it completely steady till you hear the stall horn... Notice how the yoke pressure feels...

You'll get it. Don't quit.

Go work on other stuff for a while too... Could be you're just getting a little crispy from too much practice.
 
As someone else mentioned....are you 20/40 or 20/20? makes a world of difference.
 
eman1200 said:
I'm not sure, I must have missed that if it is. I'll look for it.
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To recap, with the blade of a hockey stick flat on the ice, the handle goes up at about a 45-degree angle (this varies). Your "hockey stick" approach angle will be much smaller, in the order of three to four degrees relative to the surface, and the "blade" will be your plane flying level just above the surface. The flare is the point at which the hockey stick bends and your approach goes from descent to level flight. Gotta have that level flight portion.

Think about it...you have used the elevator to place the plane in a level flight attitude; the prop is idling, creating drag; the engine air intakes are gulping large quantities of air, creating drag; the skin of the airplane, the wheels, the flaps, whatever, all create drag. All that drag and no thrust. What is keeping the airplane up in the air? Too much airspeed?

Bob Gardner
 
Dan Thomas said:
Most landing problems involve too much speed. For some reason, many people, including instructors, are afraid of stalling on final, so they pad the airspeed and teach their students to do it, too. The result includes ballooning, porpoising, floating, wheelbarrowing and so on, all of which break way more airplanes than stalls on final.

I understand that Americans teach only approach to stall, not full stalls, in flight training. If that's true, I can understand the fear a little. But one needs to go up (high) and apply approach flap and take the power off and bring the nose up until it stalls, and see the attitude and the airspeed indication. Both are WAY outside the normal landing experience.

1.2 Vso is plently. 70 knots in a 172 is way too fast. And not flaring until reaching the surface is a mistake, too. You carry too much speed into ground effect.

Dan
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I fear stalling in the flare. So I try to compensate by coming in at 70. Maybe it is way too fast. Though I have had some good landings when I cross the numbers at 70. It's just not consistent.
 
Henning said:
Still over 70kts, way fast, not a little fast.
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Exactly. 80 mph is best glide, not approach speed. 70 mph is plenty. That's 60 knots. We used to approach the 172M models at 55 knots.

Even 10 mph extra carried into ground effect is going to take a long time to bleed off, and will otherwise result in all sorts of accident-prone scenarios.

Speed can kill on the highway. Speed can kill on the runway, too.

Dan
 
dreaming89 said:
I fear stalling in the flare. So I try to compensate by coming in at 70. Maybe it is way too fast. Though I have had some good landings when I cross the numbers at 70. It's just not consistent.
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Stall is way below 70. WAY below. And stall speed drops in ground effect.

Go up with a competent instructor and see where it stalls.

Dan
 
dreaming89 said:
I fear stalling in the flare. So I try to compensate by coming in at 70. Maybe it is way too fast. Though I have had some good landings when I cross the numbers at 70. It's just not consistent.
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That is way too fast in a 172 with two aboard. Heck, it's prolly too fast at gross. What's Vso? What are the indications of stall? How long before nose drop do you get those indications? The answers to these questions are part of why we do slow flight and approach stall training. It's good to touchdown with the stall horn blaring.

Sixty-five over the fence and power off with some flaps in, round it out then hold it off. You will land quite well this way in a 172. It takes awhile to get it right but just being close produces good landings.

Sorry for the rant. This landing problem sounds reasonably easy to fix given a good instructor. Maybe I'm missing something but I bet the instructor is not diagnosing the problem correctly. I had that happen and it is very frustrating. I was also leery of large control inputs near or on the ground. Sometimes ya just gotta make the plane do what needs be and for the most part a 172 will take it - just don't try to land one sideways...
 
Here's a shot in-the-dark(technically). If you're not a member of AOPA you might not be able to play this video. If you can bring up the Link, though you might want to watch the whole sequence, the part that deals with your ongoing concern starts at about 16 minutes into the entire video. It's a Rod Machado clip on when to flare. The "visual" might be of assistance to you.

http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live.aspx?cmp=ALTW:L5b

HR
 
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dreaming89 said:
I fear stalling in the flare. So I try to compensate by coming in at 70. Maybe it is way too fast. Though I have had some good landings when I cross the numbers at 70. It's just not consistent.
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You sort of want to stall in the flare, a flare with no stall horn is not a very good one.

In landing config and ground effect, 70kts is almost twice the stalling speed.
Shave off 10kts from your speeds and see how much easier it is. The amount of energy you have to bleed off is alot less at 60kts than 70kts, and that makes the landing flare alot easier.

Also I find it surprising that your instructor allows you to "play it safe" with approach speeds. He should be screaming in your ear to slow down or go around if you're over the numbers at 70kts.
 
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mtuomi said:
You sort of want to stall in the flare, a flare with no stall horn is not a very good one.
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It's a common misconception that we stall in the flare at landing. We don't. The stall angle is higher than the max nose-up attitude in a touchdown in a 172. You'll whack the tail on the runway before you'll stall it on.

The drop you experience if you flare too high is just sink, not stall. The stall warning might be blaring, but it's set to go off 5 to 10 knots before the actual stall.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
It's a common misconception that we stall in the flare at landing. We don't. The stall angle is higher than the max nose-up attitude in a touchdown in a 172. You'll whack the tail on the runway before you'll stall it on.

The drop you experience if you flare too high is just sink, not stall. The stall warning might be blaring, but it's set to go off 5 to 10 knots before the actual stall.

Dan
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Yes I should have been more clear in my choice of words, I said "sort of" stall, but are not actually stalling.
 
If you really stalled power off, the nose would pitch down. Just like it does when we practice at altitude. That occurs because CG is forward of center of lift; that part is not different in ground effect.

The stall horn going off is a rule of thumb, rather useful for student pilots. What you need is a moderate nose high attitude to land on the mains first. There are a couple of situations where you might want to touch down early, such as structural icing.
 
Lawreston said:
Here's a shot in-the-dark(technically). If you're not a member of AOPA you might not be able to play this video. If you can bring up the Link, though you might want to watch the whole sequence, the part that deals with your ongoing concern starts at about 16 minutes into the entire video. It's a Rod Machado clip on when to flare. The "visual" might be of assistance to you.

http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live.aspx?cmp=ALTW:L5b

HR
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I think that Rod's presentation is excellent. His most salient point is his emphasis on being no faster than 1.3 x Vso....that alone would solve the OP's problem if only he could break through his CFI's failure to understand energy management.

Bob Gardner
 
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bobmrg said:
I think that Rod's presentation is excellent. His most salient point is his emphasis on being no faster than 1.3 x Vso....that alone would solve the OP's problem if only he could break through his CFI's failure to understand energy management.

Bob Gardner
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Yep, and not 1.3Vso max gross either, I gave him the method to find it earlier.
 
dreaming89 said:
I fear stalling in the flare. So I try to compensate by coming in at 70. Maybe it is way too fast. Though I have had some good landings when I cross the numbers at 70. It's just not consistent.
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Fear of stalling denotes failure on the part of your instructor. You should understand stalls and you should respect stalls, but you should not fear them.
The stall warning comes about 5-7 knots above the actual stall, so you want to hear it just before the wheels touch. I have had a couple of roll-it-on landings in my career, and they came with the stall warning sounding.

Believe it or not, some CFI's don't like stalls either, and they pass that on to their students.

Bob Gardner
 
Clark1961 said:
That is way too fast in a 172 with two aboard. Heck, it's prolly too fast at gross. What's Vso? What are the indications of stall? How long before nose drop do you get those indications? The answers to these questions are part of why we do slow flight and approach stall training. It's good to touchdown with the stall horn blaring.

Sixty-five over the fence and power off with some flaps in, round it out then hold it off. You will land quite well this way in a 172. It takes awhile to get it right but just being close produces good landings.

Sorry for the rant. This landing problem sounds reasonably easy to fix given a good instructor. Maybe I'm missing something but I bet the instructor is not diagnosing the problem correctly. I had that happen and it is very frustrating. I was also leery of large control inputs near or on the ground. Sometimes ya just gotta make the plane do what needs be and for the most part a 172 will take it - just don't try to land one sideways...
Click to expand...

All who read my previous post misunderstood me, for which I apologize. I know what Vso (40 knots for the 172 S) is and that 70 knots isn't close to it. What I meant was, if my final is a little fast before I cross the numbers, then i'll be a little fast on the round out and when I start my flare. I know this is a reason why people balloon.
 
dreaming89 said:
All who read my previous post misunderstood me, for which I apologize. I know what Vso (40 knots for the 172 S) is and that 70 knots isn't close to it. What I meant was, if my final is a little fast before I cross the numbers, then i'll be a little fast on the round out and when I start my flare. I know this is a reason why people balloon.
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No. If you enter the level flight portion with excess speed it will just take longer (more runway behind you) before touchdown. Ballooning occurs when a pilot is not only dealing with excess airspeed but pitches up beyond level flight attitude in the flare.

Bob Gardner
 
Two things:

Look up the proper normal approach speed in the POH (70 kt has to be way too fast), which is typically 1.3 Vso, and nail that speed on final approach. Plus 2 minus 0 kt. Use neutralizing trim to make this easy. To land, reduce power and gently flare at the appropriate height. Carry some power if necessary through the flare.

If you have trouble sensing when to flare, practice with your instructor flying 3 feet off the runway. If you can master this landing is just a matter of reducing power in the slow flight attitude.

Adding speed in the approach just makes things harder and is unsafe. Fly the POH speed on final. It's plenty safe. Short field approaches for some aircraft are as slow as 1.1 Vso, so 1.3 Vso is lots of margin.
 
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