Still in shock -- lost a wonderful lady yesterday

[N5922S]

Video of the scene..... Looks like she might have fallen out while stuck between hangars...

No, the cabin was stuck in the hangar roof. The on-scene responders could not reach her, so she dangled upside down for 45 minutes until the fire dept. got there and went into cardiac arrest as they were putting her into the ambulance.

The wings and fuselage were stuck between hangars.

 

[Henning]

Yes - I remember my last go around was at the flour bombing in front of all the pilots at the airport. They thought I was playing a joke, and it was the first go around my boyfriend has ever been a part of as well.

That was hard since it was in front of everyone. The landing wasn't working out and I just wanted to make sure I was safe. I think one said I didn't climb and / or dropped a bit after the go around so I may need to work on my routine / cleaning up the plane in proper order. Since it is not something I practice, and I don't do touch and go's - ever - I could literally go 6-12 months without ever doing this manuever.

So this is one very important thing I should work on. Next time I go up I'll be sure to do so, after reviewing proper sequence / procedure on the ground.

Nothing wrong with giving up some altitude to pick up speed if you've got it to give. It's the ground, a miss is as good as a mile, airspeed is your friend always and forever if you want control. The ground will not jump up and grab you if you dare fly along at 5', it really won't, and ground effect will be helping you accelerate by reducing drag for you. Most light planes if you have them trimmed properly for final will be trimmed pretty close to Vy, if you commit to go around just go full forward with power and prop and make sure you tuck in the carb heat. You would also most like go mixture rich where you fly, but not at airports above 5000', then leave it.

In the "oh crap" moment's search for energy never leave an inch of altitude unclaimed.

 

[Henning]

We are talking about a go around. Try dumping all the flaps 10' off the ground.

Depends how much airspeed you have, generally not advisable below the green arc though lol. Where people go wrong with it is holding the nose up and retracting flaps; you have to push the nose down, the more aggressively the better, after the throttle takes hold to let it accelerate.

 

[EppyGA]

Video of the scene..... Looks like she might have fallen out while stuck between hangars...

No, the cabin was stuck in the hangar roof. The on-scene responders could not reach her, so she dangled upside down for 45 minutes until the fire dept. got there and went into cardiac arrest as they were putting her into the ambulance.

The wings and fuselage were stuck between hangars.

Are you serious, 45 minutes?

 

[Mike5250]

Flaps
carb heat * Forget this on a hot summer day and you're not climbing too well(in the 152)
Trim
throttle

Power first. This is how it was explained to me:

Power up
Clean up
Speak up.

Don't forget to call it out on the radio.

edit: meant to type t&g above that. Obviously that would not be a great idea on a go around.

 

[Mike5250]

I hope you are describing a T&G.

That prescription for a Go Around at 10 feet will have you touching pavement first and probably bending some metal.

Yep, bad typo on my part! I probably got a few people worried.

 

[N5922S]

Are you serious, 45 minutes?

Sadly, yes. I wasn't there when it happened, but 2 of my friends were trying to find a ladder long enough to get up there. First, they had to pick the lock and figure out how to open the hangar door (not as easy as you might think under the circumstances) to get the Lear out of the way.

 

[PilotAlan]

I would imagine he is talking about a go around not a touch and go. Who cares how fast you move the flaps up on the ground?

That was my point.
Please re-read the post. I was *contrasting* T&G procedures with go-around procedures. If you do muscle-memory T&G procedures when you're trying to go around, bad things will happen.

 

[Henning]

No forklift on the field?

 

[Inverted]

That was my point.
Please re-read the post. I was *contrasting* T&G procedures with go-around procedures. If you do muscle-memory T&G procedures when you're trying to go around, bad things will happen.

They are two completely different operations. Thats like mixing memory items for takeoff and landing.

 

[Henning]

They are two completely different operations. Thats like mixing memory items for takeoff and landing.

Yes, but outside the scope of the argument

 

[Inverted]

Well, maybe in this situation, but not for complex high performance aircraft which is for a different topic...

 

[BillTIZ]

Re read what I wrote, I did say I was not ready but at 19 I didn't know any beter and after starting training again it reminded me of what little I did know and shouldn't have been signed off.

Another BS Flag Wave.

I sign off 14 yr olds for supervised solo.
Yes it's a glider, no power, but they have to demonstrate skill, decision making to stay within final glide of the airport, maturity in how they handle themsleves around the airport, and they do not have an engine to worry about. It leaves when the glider pilot pulls the release.

 

[spiderweb]

But the takeoff flaps are less then the landing flaps right? So if you land at 30 degrees, and take off at 10, you raise then "all at once" to 10 degrees. There is no need to worry about staging them, because your rolling down the runway.

I see, but the way you phrased it is dangerous, "raise flaps all at once." Better to say, "Flaps--Takeoff Configuration."

 

[wabower]

Approach trim is more likely to produce ~VX than ~VY.

Nothing wrong with giving up some altitude to pick up speed if you've got it to give. It's the ground, a miss is as good as a mile, airspeed is your friend always and forever if you want control. The ground will not jump up and grab you if you dare fly along at 5', it really won't, and ground effect will be helping you accelerate by reducing drag for you. Most light planes if you have them trimmed properly for final will be trimmed pretty close to Vy, if you commit to go around just go full forward with power and prop and make sure you tuck in the carb heat. You would also most like go mixture rich where you fly, but not at airports above 5000', then leave it.

In the "oh crap" moment's search for energy never leave an inch of altitude unclaimed.

 

[redtail]

Very sad indeed. RIP!

This reminds me of a scary moment I had when I was a student at KTEB, back in '98.

I was practicing solo T&Gs over at KMMU (TEB was always too busy) and on one go, I forgot to retract the flaps (172). After rotating, the nose pitched up like crazy!
Scared the hell out of me.

Thankfully, I didn't panic. I remembered my training, pushed the nose over and slowly retracted the flaps as my airspeed picked up! In an instant, I remembered my CFI teaching me to never dump the flaps all at once, that close to the ground while at such a slow speed!

You can bet, I never again forgot to clean up on a T&G. I think that experience made me much more aware of my go around technique also! It's always power, pitch & configuration. Almost without even thinking about it.

So sorry her family had to witness that!

Depends how much airspeed you have, generally not advisable below the green arc though lol. Where people go wrong with it is holding the nose up and retracting flaps; you have to push the nose down, the more aggressively the better, after the throttle takes hold to let it accelerate.

^^^
I'll second that

 

[Fearless Tower]

Approach trim is more likely to produce ~VX than ~VY.

How do you figure Wayne?

I can't say that I have tried it myself, but simply based on the idea that an airplane wants to fly its trim speed (demonstrated and lectured on by Al Haynes), if you are trimmed for say 90 kts on final at a reduced power setting and go full throttle, the airplane should pitch up and settle out in a climb at 90 kts, or am I missing something? Most approach speeds are closer to Vy than Vx.

 

[dell30rb]

How do you figure Wayne?

I can't say that I have tried it myself, but simply based on the idea that an airplane wants to fly its trim speed (demonstrated and lectured on by Al Haynes), if you are trimmed for say 90 kts on final at a reduced power setting and go full throttle, the airplane should pitch up and settle out in a climb at 90 kts, or am I missing something? Most approach speeds are closer to Vy than Vx.

The extra effect of the propwash on the airfoils when at full throttle vs glide accounts for most of this. It works the other way too... piddling along at cruise and then pull the power off... the plane will settle into a speed that is a little bit faster. This varies among different designs and probably CG loading too but this is generally what I have experienced.

This is also the reason I would not recommend to students in trainers to give it some trim up when beginning the flare. Yeah it will definitely help your landings in a lot of aircraft but its not necessary for a trainer. Instead of wanting to fly at Vx as it would if you left it trimmed for your approach speed, it would pitch up and slow to some number lower than that, requiring a lot of downward yoke pressure that might overwhelm a really new pilot.

 

[Inverted]

It all depends on if you KEEP trimming on approach. I would imagine it would not be the case but I have had woman students who will trim almost down to the ground. Its not my favorite technique in small airplanes but you gotta do what you gotta do. I seem to remember the 172 pitching to Vx with the trim I put in for approach. Full aft trim will also fly best glide in a 172.

I have never flown a Jabiru but maybe the elevator is heavy enough to need constant trim, this can bite a student for obvious reasons. I remember new 182 pilots having issues with this.

 

[RV10flyer]

Depends on the plane.

My RV-10 has strong static longitudnal stability when solo/full fuel(Fwd CG), whether slow or fast.

Packed for a family trip(Aft CG), it is a whole different animal. It has neutral to negative stability depending on power setting and speed. Slow and high power such as a go around, one has to watch airspeed closely. I do not trim all of the stick pull out on final approach for this reason.

 

[Dav8or]

This accident makes me wonder three things;

1) Do we tend to rush students to solo? The pilot community in it's infinite wisdom, seems to place a high value on a quick solo and a quick check ride. People brag about how few hours they took. This puts pressure on CFIs to sign off as soon as possible.

2) Are light sport planes really the best for pilot training? Every time I read a flight report for one of these planes, the reviews always describe the controls as "sporty", "light" and some pitch sensitive. I guess that's the sport in light sport, but wouldn't it be better to have more lethargic control forces for training?

3) Do we not train for cockpit distractions enough? Sure, we teach go arounds, but in this case as well as the twin Cessna with the baggage door, it's not the decision, or the maneuver, it's the pilot over load and distraction that result in a crash. Something takes the mind off of airspeed and overall attitude of the airplane.

It seems to me that a good training tool for CFIs might be to give the student a surprise task to solve in either the take off, or landing phase of the flight. Something like, hand a calculator to the student and have them find out what 345 x 16 is, or have them have to dial up and call the CFI on their cell phone, or maybe keep track of a pencil on the glare shield. I'm not sure of the test, just something to distract while the CFI watches airspeed and attitude.

Just some thoughts.

 

[RV10flyer]

I spent 19 hrs to solo and proud of it.

I sure would not want to learn in an RV with their light control forces when slow. They are actually very heavy at cruise or above compared to 172's.

My CFI started distracting me just after I figured out the takeoff and landing thing..."You are going to do the radios now too."

WHAT???!!!

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I've never felt rushed to solo anyone or reccomend, heck I told two folks that flying wasn't for them.

It's 50/50

Half is a good CFI who takes pride in his craft and teaches a student properly, lets them rip when they are ready.

The other half is the student, no one can 100% predict how a student is going to react when then get that "wholy chit, I'm the only one in this plane" moment, some do great, others (thankfully non of mine) dont.

.... Are light sport planes really the best for pilot training? Every time I read a flight report for one of these planes, the reviews always describe the controls as "sporty", "light" and some pitch sensitive. I guess that's the sport in light sport, but wouldn't it be better to have more lethargic control forces for training?....

I would say light sport is too vague, a 7AC is a light sport and light on the controls, GREAT aircraft to learn in, it's what brought me into aviation.

NOW other "planes" like that sportcruser pile of crap, it's controls were so un-proportiant; it's roll axis felt like a U206 at full gross, whereas the pitch felt like a Extra 300!

The cessna fly catcher, a chinese built plane, is another.

I would not teach in these type of planes unless the student was

A ) dead set on flying the POS
B ) a exceptionally good stick

 

[DogDaddy]

NineThreeKilo, your comment made me remember something my instructor told me many times up till my solo. Before, during, and after flights he would stress that for any particular pitch/power setting and flap configuration, the plane will behave exactly the same way every time. The plane will always get into the same descent rate and airspeed. It has no mind of its own.
So when it was time for my solo, as I pulled onto the runway I had that brief moment where I asked myself, "Are you really ready for this, after all, once you rotate you will be completely on your own; no one will be able to get into the plane with me to help you. This is your last chance to change your mind." But that thought was immediately replaced with what my instructor kept saying (and what he had me prove to myself). So I realized I needed to trust the aircraft and just do everything the same as as I did on the previous 10 times around the pattern.

 

[denverpilot]

It all depends on if you KEEP trimming on approach. I would imagine it would not be the case but I have had woman students who will trim almost down to the ground. Its not my favorite technique in small airplanes but you gotta do what you gotta do. I seem to remember the 172 pitching to Vx with the trim I put in for approach. Full aft trim will also fly best glide in a 172.

I have never flown a Jabiru but maybe the elevator is heavy enough to need constant trim, this can bite a student for obvious reasons. I remember new 182 pilots having issues with this.

Good instructors make the student let go of the controls on a regular and repeated basis in all flight regimes to knock this concept into their heads.

It's not. Repeat. Not. A male/female thing.

It's a priority thing. If the instructors don't push the priority of aviating with the craft in trim at all times, it won't be a priority when the student is alone.

Every power change REQUIRES a trim change, period. Must be hammered home from day one.

 

[N801BH]

Good instructors make the student let go of the controls on a regular and repeated basis in all flight regimes to knock this concept into their heads.

It's not. Repeat. Not. A male/female thing.

It's a priority thing. If the instructors don't push the priority of aviating with the craft in trim at all times, it won't be a priority when the student is alone.

Every power change REQUIRES a trim change, period. Must be hammered home from day one.

Agreed.....

Ps. Don't let Sara see this..

 

[Inverted]

Good instructors make the student let go of the controls on a regular and repeated basis in all flight regimes to knock this concept into their heads.

It's not. Repeat. Not. A male/female thing.

It's a priority thing. If the instructors don't push the priority of aviating with the craft in trim at all times, it won't be a priority when the student is alone.

Every power change REQUIRES a trim change, period. Must be hammered home from day one.

There is a difference between trimming from takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, and approach to landing, then to trim in the flare and touchdown.

There are certain airplanes that should be muscled in the flare specifically due to the plane possibly overpowering the pilot during a go around. It could literally be this exact same scenario that got this poor student in trouble. Some airplanes get real heavy when the power is pulled out. Certain pilots will live with it and muscle it in the flare, some wont. In a bunch of airplanes I have flown, You can get to full aft trim during landing if you want to alleviate pressures. This can cause a huge pitching moment very quickly in the event of a go around. Especially aircraft with slow electric trim, or no electric trim.

 

[zaitcev]

Agreed.....

Ps. Don't let Sara see this..

I'm going to continue to disregard Nate's strict advice. I had a couple of instructors frown at my manner to "fly with trim" because I did that. They said to control with yoke and deal with trim when task load permits. It was in both Cherokee and C-182RG, and I can trim without looking in both.

Oddly enough all of these CFI and Nate adhere to the concept of aviating first, but extract opposing suggestions from it.

P.S. On second reading maybe Nate meant to say that any power change requires a trim change eventually, which is true enough. I thought we discussed this awful accident and other cases of the nose suddenly going up. In such cases fumbling with trim is going to kill, IMHO. BTW, since starting aviation I came from 10 push-ups a set to 25 push-ups. On a go-around that yoke is going forward trim or no trim.

 

[JHW]

I spent 19 hrs to solo and proud of it.

You're a rock star then. I must have been over 300 hrs to solo.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Every power change REQUIRES a trim change, period. Must be hammered home from day one.

That is not a general rule. Once I've got my trim set to my desired landing speed I use power changes to adjust my glide slope to bring me to my aim point. This is what I was trained to do in a power airplane. In a glider I would adjust speed brakes or even slip. In neither case would I touch trim unless I found myself constantly holding pressure on the yoke or stick either way.

I believe the Jabiru in question may have stall speeds of 42/47 kias dirty/clean and a recommended landing speed of 65 kias. The T.O.S.S. (take off safety speed) would also be 65 kias. Balked landing speed initially is also 65 kias. Vx and Vy are 58 and 78 kias respectively.

Now here is the balked landing procedure copied and pasted from the 2012 J-230D POH (I think the accident plane is a J-250; if I recall that means different sized wings but otherwise similar airframe):

4.8.1 Baulked Landing
Power ...................................................... FULL THROTTLE
Carburettor heat ..................................... COLD
Control yaw to left .................................... RUDDER
Control pitch up ....................................... ELEVATOR
Airspeed .................................................. ESTABLISH NORMAL CLIMB SPEED
Wing Flaps .............................................. RETRACT SLOWLY

NOTE
​

Full power, full flap go-around will produce an initially strong yaw to the left and nose pitch up. These effects must be anticipated & controlled using the rudder and elevator respectively.
​

(Bold emphasis added by me.)

 

[N801BH]

Full power, full flap go-around will produce an initially strong yaw to the left and nose pitch up. These effects must be anticipated & controlled using the rudder and elevator respectively.

​

(Bold emphasis added by me.)

Geez.... Recipe for this accident... in print.....

 

[Dav8or]

I would say light sport is too vague, a 7AC is a light sport and light on the controls, GREAT aircraft to learn in, it's what brought me into aviation.

Agreed. I wasn't thinking of legacy certified planes that happen to qualify for LSA. What I meant was, all the brand new designs from all around the world. That too me is the more typical "light sport" plane.

On the issue of the Champ (that is what a 7AC is, right?), are the control forces lighter, or heavier than the Sportcruiser, or Skycatcher? How about a C-152?

 

[Dav8or]

Geez.... Recipe for this accident... in print.....

Indeed. Perhaps there is something to all this certified flight testing. Having a plane with flawed flight characteristics and then just putting notes about it in the POH is not all that great of a strategy. Pitching up in the go around is pretty normal, but banking to the left??

 

[dell30rb]

Indeed. Perhaps there is something to all this certified flight testing. Having a plane with flawed flight characteristics and then just putting notes about it in the POH is not all that great of a strategy. Pitching up in the go around is pretty normal, but banking to the left??

All SEL (with a few exotic exceptions) will yaw left upon sudden application of power at low airspeed.

When you hit the throttle for the takeoff roll, what are you doing with your feet? Assuming no wind, you're pressing the right rudder pedal to keep the plane from going left and off the r wy

 

[N801BH]

All SEL (with a few exotic exceptions) will yaw left upon sudden application of power at low airspeed.

When you hit the throttle for the takeoff roll, what are you doing with your feet? Assuming no wind, you're pressing the right rudder pedal to keep the plane from going left and off the r wy

You would think she would have been taught that in the first few hours of dual training...


And LONG before she was signed off for solo work..

 

[Jim Logajan]

Indeed. Perhaps there is something to all this certified flight testing. Having a plane with flawed flight characteristics and then just putting notes about it in the POH is not all that great of a strategy. Pitching up in the go around is pretty normal, but banking to the left??

The Jabiru J-230 (not sure of the no longer sold J-250) is certified in several countries: http://www.jabiru.net.au/factory-built-aircraft

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

On the issue of the Champ (that is what a 7AC is, right?), are the control forces lighter, or heavier than the Sportcruiser, or Skycatcher? How about a C-152?

With a Champ, you can take the stick and stirr it in a big circle banging against the stops and it just kinda wiggles along.

Can't say anything about the other LSAs you mention.

 

[Henning]

Power changes don't always require trim changes, only if you want to change speed. If you want to maintain speed and change descent rate then leave the trim alone and change the power setting.

 

[L.Adamson]

All SEL (with a few exotic exceptions) will yaw left upon sudden application of power at low airspeed.

When you hit the throttle for the takeoff roll, what are you doing with your feet? Assuming no wind, you're pressing the right rudder pedal to keep the plane from going left and off the r wy

Yes...............I see nothing "flawed" in the POH regarding a go-around, at all. I knew exactly what my RV6 & constant speed prop was going to do, if I quickly powered up at low airspeeds. Just be ready for right rudder real quick, and some right aileron if needed. It's the reason you don't full throttle a P-51 on a go-around. It will just roll over.

L.Adamson

 

[BillTIZ]

All SEL (with a few exotic exceptions) will yaw left upon sudden application of power at low airspeed.

When you hit the throttle for the takeoff roll, what are you doing with your feet? Assuming no wind, you're pressing the right rudder pedal to keep the plane from going left and off the r wy

I remember that in the 1974 C-150, especially if you were going around from a 40 degree flap approach.