Sticky Situation - Need Advice

Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect. — Captain A. G. Lamplugh
A classic quote, and I thoroughly agree with the spirit. Regardless, it's wrong because aviation IS inherently dangerous. Superb pilots doing everything right have still made smoking holes. Spinning props, low altitude engine failures, structural/flight-control failures, microbursts, unforecast icing, spatial-D...the list goes on. In aviation, we identify hazards, assess the risk associated with those hazards (likelihood and severity), and then remove, mitigate, or accept those risks before we fly. Done properly, we see the sort of safety record enjoyed by the airlines. Done with any measure of carelessness, incapacity, or neglect, we see a statistic.

What makes aviation special, I believe, is that when we do have a safety failure we actively try to learn from it, both as a group and as individuals, to reduce the likelihood that another one of us makes the same error. I have long advocated in Medicine that we need to actively pursue the same philosophy. Just as we saw how checklists improved outcomes in the OR, so too would a cultural shift away from blame-seeking help us to all learn from our mistakes and be better in the future.
 
The OP, I haven't read all the responses you got a lot.

My opinion is your the instructor and you made excellent decision not to fly, both for safety, legal, and example reasons.

You demonstrated great ADM to your student, but perhaps missed an opportunity to provide a very valuable lesson in ADM.

You evaluated the situation, we teach the PAVE (A=Aircraft) (E=external pressures).
You found and aircraft that legally was infit to fly. That usually is enough to cancel the flight. But you, the operator, and another pilot (instructor?) all had financial external pressure to keep the plane flying the rest of day. Students might also have external pressures, if we don't fly today it may be weeks before we can perform this lesson again or even have to reschedule a check ride because of it.


Given the right external pressures, you might decide flying with a likely broken P-lead is the best course of action. That is why you are the pilot in command. (Possible example you are at a remote back country strip and discover this issue, weather is coming in and it might be several days (or more) before you will be able leave if you wait to get it fixed)

Often legally unfit to fly doesn't mean unsafe to fly. But you as the pilot have to evaluate the risk of doing so. I am never going to criticize another pilot for not flying something I think is fine. Strictly sticking to the legal requirement does sometimes get either gray or silly.
Would you cancel your typical day time 1 hour instructional flight for the following items. Given it is probably a different answer if they have been broken for weeks vs maintenance will fix it on Monday or maintenance will fix when we get home. Probably wouldn't recommend posting responses on the internet, and I likely wouldn't fully believe any answer posted because the answer is almost always "it depends" on the external pressures and personal minimums.

An Inop light (nav, landing, taxi, panel, post, instrument)
An Inop trim indicator
Baggage door that won't open
Door lock that won't lock
Heater control that won't open
Aux power outlet inop (aka Cigarette lighter outlet)

Part of the ADM process should include.
1. How might choosing to fly (or less so, not fly) affect my reputation.
2. How would I explain my decision in the event of an investigation (accident/incident?)

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
There's a definition of airworthy hiding in Part 3.5: "...the aircraft conforms to its type design and is in a condition for safe operation." Conformance with type design essentially means conformance with the TCDS, which is generated and maintained by the manufacturer or TC holder, and conformance with applicable STCs and relevant ADs.
There's a lot more to it than the TDS. Dan covered it pretty well. The type certificate is issued based on the manufacturer's demonstration that the aircraft meets all applicable standards (CAR 3, FAR 23, etc).

Yes. Conformity with the TCDS is required in order to be airworthy.

Part 23 governs design and certification. It’s not relevant to us mere pilots. But it may be an interesting read for pilots who are gearheads.
It absolutely is relevant when it comes to discussion of airworthiness. That's why one of the entries you will find in every TCDS is the "Certification Basis" which tells you exactly which of those certification regs is incorporated by reference into that TCDS. Without knowing what aircraft the OP was flying, we don't necessarily know whether 23.1145 was in effect for that airplane, but chances are if not there was a similar reg.

Another thing that's incorporated in later aircraft is the documentation, that is, the POH/AFM for that airplane. What does it say about operating with a defective ignition system?

With that in mind, the FAA does not decide whether a defect in an ignition system renders an airplane unairworthy, at least, not in the way that I think you intended (and I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong). Should the issue come to their attention, they will refer to the TCDS, STCs, ADs, etc. to determine whether the defect results in non-conformance with the type design.
You're correct that it's not *just* the FAA in a vacuum, the manufacturer has a lot to say about it as well, all via official documentation of course!

So yeah, the regs in the Certification Basis, the engineering and production documentation, the POH/AFM, all of that "paperwork that weighs as much as the airplane" is all relevant here. The FAA makes the rules, the manufacturer states how they're following those rules, the FAA puts their stamp of approval on it. The FAA doesn't directly say "That airplane must have a fully working ignition system to be airworthy." The FAA says "According to the manufacturer's documentation that we approved, the airplane must have a fully working ignition system to be airworthy." It is *NOT* up to the PIC/CFI whether the aircraft is airworthy or not, unless they've based that decision on all of the appropriate documentation - There does exist an answer in black and white on paper, it is not up to the judgement of the PIC.

As we all know, the responsibility for determining the airworthiness of an aircraft for a given flight operation falls on the PIC, ref. 91.7 and 91.3.
It is their responsibility, yes, but it is not their judgement. It is their responsibility to look at the appropriate documentation to make that determination.

?? Part 3.5 of what?
Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations. Usually referred to in the industry as "14 CFR" or more informally, "the FARs."

In particular:

§ 3.5 Statements about products, parts, appliances and materials.​

(a) Definitions. The following terms will have the stated meanings when used in this section:

Airworthy means the aircraft conforms to its type design and is in a condition for safe operation.

Some years ago, a squadron CO of mine got bent out of shape when the Admin officer posted a bunch of "Safety is our Number One Priority!" signs around the spaces. The CO made it very clear that in fact getting the mission done was our number one priority. Safety was integrated into everything we did, with risk identified, removed, mitigated, or accepted as appropriate. Safety cannot be the number one priority in aviation, because it is inherently hazardous and we'd never leave the ground.
Yep.
 
It sounds like you are aimed at 121 where a ridiculous little seniority number is going to rule your life for a few decades.

This situation presents you with an opportunity. Rat out the instructor who flew on a known bad magneto. Boom, he gets his certs questioned by the feds. The heat freaks out the school owner who gets the p-lead repaired. You take over other CFI's flights to "keep the lights on" and get more hours and closer to those stylish epaulets and assorted opportunities to pay stews alimony.

You are a hero to the cash strapped school owner by being ready to fly more
You remove a competing CFI from all applicant pools you are about to dive into at the magic 1500 mark
The FAA loves your safety-conscious approach.

Stop playing 1D chess.
 
Your instincts are correct. As a CFI you are more than just a teacher, you are also obliged to report deliberately unsafe behavior to the FAA and I know I might well do so would in this case if all your facts are as stated. If the plane was flown with what you think was a potentially dangerous squawk and not properly returned to service by an A&P, this probably falls into that category and certainly deserves a close looking at. As a young and aspiring commercial pilot, working on the lower rungs of the system, also be prepared to lose your job by refusing to particpate in unsafe behavior (or move before getting fired -- as necessary) to uphold this value. I"m afraid it goes with the territory and it's happened to other pilots I've known personally. My advice: Uphold your professonal integrity.

That said, I think you have a good future and personally, I'd fly with you any day.
 
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It absolutely is relevant when it comes to discussion of airworthiness.
You're referring to Part 23. I still disagree: Part 23 applies to aircraft certification. A pilot preparing for a flight is not subject to the regulations in Part 23, and I have yet to see a pilot preflight an aircraft by referencing a copy of Part 23. I recommend leaving Part 23 out of the discussion as it creates a distraction. Which it has.

The FAA says "According to the manufacturer's documentation that we approved, the airplane must have a fully working ignition system to be airworthy."
Where does the FAA say that? What the FAA actually says is that the aircraft must conform to its type design—essentially, having no unapproved alterations—and be in a condition for safe operation. The OP encountered an airplane with a defective ignition system. He (correctly) determined that the airplane was not in a condition for safe operation. He did not need to research the TCDS or Part 23 to make that determination. I suggest that the OP's most useful reference regarding the defective ignition component is 91.213.

To look at it another way, if there were no FARs and no FAA, would the OP's airplane have been airworthy?

It is *NOT* up to the PIC/CFI whether the aircraft is airworthy or not, unless they've based that decision on all of the appropriate documentation - There does exist an answer in black and white on paper, it is not up to the judgement of the PIC.
Again, we disagree. 91.7 explicitly places the responsibility on the PIC. It is the responsibility of the PIC to determine (not judge) that the airplane conforms to its type design, and that it is in a condition for safe flight. This includes making certain that required maintenance and inspections are current, that it complies with Subpart C, etc.
 
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You're referring to Part 23. I still disagree: Part 23 applies to aircraft certification. A pilot preparing for a flight is not subject to the regulations in Part 23, and I have yet to see a pilot preflight an aircraft by referencing a copy of Part 23. I recommend leaving Part 23 out of the discussion as it creates a distraction. Which it has.
It's not like we need to go and read part 23. The TCDS does reference it, though, so it is not irrelevant either.

Where does the FAA say that? What the FAA actually says is that the aircraft must conform to its type design—essentially, having no unapproved alterations—and be in a condition for safe operation.
Via following the paper trail. However, I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. The reason I originally replied is at the end of this post.

The OP encountered an airplane with a defective ignition system. He (correctly) determined that the airplane was not in a condition for safe operation. He did not need to research the TCDS or Part 23 to make that determination. I suggest that the OP's most useful reference regarding the defective ignition component is 91.213.
Specifically, 91.213(d). And yes, they should be stopping there first on the paper trail.

To look at it another way, if there were no FARs and no FAA, would the OP's airplane have been airworthy?
If there were no FARs and no FAA, there is no such thing as "airworthy". In fact, maybe there's no such thing as an airplane, it's just a thing with wings that flies until it's defined in FAR 1.1 right? ;)

Again, we disagree. 91.7 explicitly places the responsibility on the PIC. It is the responsibility of the PIC to determine (not judge) that the airplane conforms to its type design, and that it is in a condition for safe flight. This includes making certain that required maintenance and inspections are current, that it complies with Subpart C, etc.
It is the PIC's responsibility to determine airworthiness, yes. However, that does not mean that the PIC can decide what is airworthy. It's not a judgement call. Essentially, the PIC's responsibility is to look up the right documentation to determine whether the FAA considers the aircraft airworthy.

Here's what started this whole series:
It's not up to the flight school owner to decide whether it's OK to fly with a broken P lead. It's up to the FAA. So no, it was not okay to fly like that.

My perspective is that it is up to the PIC. It was not okay to operate the airplane with a defective ignition system component, and the final decision to fly belonged to the PIC (CFI), not the owner or the FAA.
So, we agree that it is not the flight school owner who gets to decide. The decision to fly is up to the PIC, but the decision of whether a defective ignition is airworthy or not is not something the PIC gets to decide, it's something the FAA gets to decide, with the manufacturer's involvement, during the certification of the aircraft. That's why I posted the following, seeking to make that clear to someone who thought you might have said that the PIC gets to decide whether the plane is airworthy or not:

It's the FAA's decision whether or not the defective ignition system is legally airworthy or not. It's the PIC's decision whether to fly an unairworthy airplane or not.
 
By now you and I are probably the only two members following this thread. So...
It's not like we need to go and read part 23. The TCDS does reference it, though, so it is not irrelevant either.
Sorry, but I can't grasp your reasoning. Part 23 is relevant to a TCDS. But I still can't understand your assertion that Part 23 is relevant to the OP's sticky situation. While Part 23 is not intended to provide guidance to pilots, a TCDS can be referenced to determine an aircraft's conformity to its type design. I think we agree that it is 91.213 that provides guidance relevant to the OP, and all of us, when confronted with inoperative equipment or components.
It is the PIC's responsibility to determine airworthiness, yes. However, that does not mean that the PIC can decide what is airworthy
It's not a judgement call. Essentially, the PIC's responsibility is to look up the right documentation to determine whether the FAA considers the aircraft airworthy.
The sticking point here is the use of the term judgement. It seems that you are characterizing the OP's flight scool owner as having made a judgement call on the (assumed) p-lead defect, and if so, I understand your point. I have been using the term determine instead of judge, and the distinction, in this matter, should be clear. We both agree that the flight school owner was wrong, as were the CFIs who flew the defective airplane based on the owner's judgement.
Here's what started this whole series:So, we agree that it is not the flight school owner who gets to decide. The decision to fly is up to the PIC, but the decision of whether a defective ignition is airworthy or not is not something the PIC gets to decide, it's something the FAA gets to decide, with the manufacturer's involvement, during the certification of the aircraft. That's why I posted the following, seeking to make that clear to someone who thought you might have said that the PIC gets to decide whether the plane is airworthy or not:
It appears that we are looking down opposite ends of the barrel regarding the roles of the manufacturer and FAA, but it seems to be the same barrel. I don't know which of us has the end with the trigger. Just to be clear, my position is that the PIC must (not gets to) determine that the plane is airworthy.
 
By now you and I are probably the only two members following this thread. So...

Sorry, but I can't grasp your reasoning. Part 23 is relevant to a TCDS. But I still can't understand your assertion that Part 23 is relevant to the OP's sticky situation. While Part 23 is not intended to provide guidance to pilots, a TCDS can be referenced to determine an aircraft's conformity to its type design. I think we agree that it is 91.213 that provides guidance relevant to the OP, and all of us, when confronted with inoperative equipment or components.
I'm still following it. Your preoccupation with the TCDS is misplaced. The TCDS is a one or two page summary of certification data such as engine and propeller models, fuel quantities, and operating limitations. It does not contain enough information to determine airworthiness in accordance with 14 CFR 91.213(d)(2)(i).
 
I'm still following it. Your preoccupation with the TCDS is misplaced.
You might have missed my commentary in post #88, in which I wrote:
. . . a TCDS can be referenced to determine an aircraft's conformity to its type design. I think we agree that it is 91.213 that provides guidance relevant to . . . inoperative equipment or components.

The TCDS is a one or two page summary of certification data such as engine and propeller models, fuel quantities, and operating limitations. It does not contain enough information to determine airworthiness in accordance with 14 CFR 91.213(d)(2)(i).
The TCDS is a reference that can be consulted to determine whether an aircraft conforms to its type design. 91.213 serves a different function in determining whether an aircraft is in a condition for safe flight.

I’m not “preoccupied” with the TCDS; I am (briefly) discussing its role in determining whether an aircraft meets the FAA’s definition of airworthy.
 
It appears that we are looking down opposite ends of the barrel regarding the roles of the manufacturer and FAA, but it seems to be the same barrel. I don't know which of us has the end with the trigger. Just to be clear, my position is that the PIC must (not gets to) determine that the plane is airworthy.
I'm not even sure we're at opposite ends! ;) Just as long as people realize that the PIC must determine whether or not the plane is airworthy based on what's black and white on paper in the equipment list, regs, etc and not just whether or not they personally feel safe enough flying it. :deadhorse:
 
The PIC is not responsible for determining that an aircraft conforms to type design. That PIC responsibility does not exist in the FAR and cannot be met.

The owner/operator is responsible for determining conformance with the type design. This is done during the annual/100 hour conformance inspection, plus compliance with regs on inspection and logging of repairs and alterations.

The PIC is responsible for determining whether the aircraft is in condition for safe flight. This responsibility is done during the preflight inspection, plus compliance with AFM/POH procedures. His responsibility for TD conformance is limited to checking the documents listed in ARROW.

The PIC does not have training or the access to documentation necessary to determine conformance, unless he is also the owner/operator. Example: how would a PIC renting from an FBO determine conformance without access to maintenance logs?

The misunderstanding comes from misapplying the definition of airworthiness from FAR Part 3 to the operating rules of Part 91. In this case, literalism creates a conclusion not intended or enforced.
I understand your point. However, when considering the imperative that FAA has given us in 91.7(a), “No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition,” we have to go searching for FAA’s definition of the term “airworthy” to understand exactly what we are responsible for. And the only definition that I can find in 14 CFR Ch. 1 is 3.5. I think this reveals a shortcoming in the guidance that FAA provides in Part 91.

To address your example, “how would a PIC renting from an FBO determine conformance without access to maintenance logs?” Why would an FBO deny a renter access to maintenance logs? I’ve never been denied a peek to make sure that the inspection status is current. By peek, that can mean a photo of the appropriate log entries.

For the purposes of 3.5(a) and 91.7(a), conformance with the type design is reflected by a current annual inspection and subsequent logbook entries. Does the pilot have a responsibility to determine whether the aircraft has a current annual (and any other required) inspection prior to operating the aircraft? If I recall correctly, if required inspections are not current, the airworthiness certificate is not valid.

If we rent an airplane and accept (trust) the owner/operator’s assurance that its inspection status is current, that’s a decision that may result in our being non-compliant with 91.7(a) if it turns out that the owner/operator was mistaken, or lying. In the end, it’s on us.
 
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