Steam gauges and IFR avionics

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jeffs chips

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Hello. I'm considering the purchase of a single-engine aircraft and I know this may sound like blasphemy, but I'd rather stay with steam gauges for a while (mostly because of cost). My concern is that I know if steam gauges die in an approach, it's not a nice thing to have happen. I also know that it's not allowable to fly an IFR/RNAV approach with portable GPS.

However, what is a recommended portable GPS device that can be used in an emergency and provide guidance down to the ground? I do understand that these devices are not approved but I would like to have something in the flight bag that can be used in a pinch. Thanks.
 
And if the entire panel goes down? That's why I'm inquiring about a suggested totally separate device powered by it's own source of electricity.
 
Steam gauges have nothing to do with your GPS. The standard 6-pack of "steam gauges" is for aircraft control about the three axes, not navigation on the approach per se (leaving out HSI for the moment). If you lose those in IMC, you go partial panel to control the a/c unless you have a better backup. You can have a very snazzy suite of GPS equipment and still have steam gauges and many a/c do.
 
My bad I should have been more clear and not mentioned gps, full panel failure along with steam gauges in the same thread, I stand corrected.

Let's just say your *entire* panel goes down - steam gauges, partial panel instruments, radios, turn coordinator, auto pilot, HSI, altitude,radio (other than portable backup) everything in the *entire* panel. Entire as in *entire*. Kaput as in gone.

What type of backup GPS portable device - acknowledged that it is not to be used except in an emergency - would be recommended to have onboard? GPS as in something with moving map and attitude backup.
 
IDK but whatever you choose, have two of them. I guess.
 
jeffs chips said:
My bad I should have been more clear and not mentioned gps, full panel failure along with steam gauges in the same thread, I stand corrected.

Let's just say your *entire* panel goes down - steam gauges, partial panel instruments, radios, turn coordinator, auto pilot, HSI, altitude,radio (other than portable backup) everything in the *entire* panel. Entire as in *entire*. Kaput as in gone.

What type of backup GPS portable device - acknowledged that it is not to be used except in an emergency - would be recommended to have onboard? GPS as in something with moving map and attitude backup.
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Really, that won't happen. As mentioned earlier, the heading and attitude indicator are vacuum powered in most planes, and run off the engine (with a very few exceptions). The turn coordinator is off the electrical system, which is completely separate from the vacuum system. Altitude and air speed are from the pitot-static system, another entirely independent system. The magnetic compass stands on its own.

Better than a GPS might be a hand-held radio, the portable backup you mentioned. If you lose electricity, use that to get vectors and use the magnetic compass for course. There are also procedures for loss of communications. your vacuum based attitude indicator will still work. If you lose the vacuum system, electrical system, pitot-static system, and the compass all at once, you've got more problems than a GPS might solve. @Walboy gave some good advice and commentary.

An iPad running ForeFlight, or the Garmin software, will give you some charts. Some tablets have the GPS built in. I'd be careful trusting them because the GPS signal bounces around and sometimes leads to a false position. I've seen hand-helds a mile off the actual position.
 
It seems you need a little education on how traditional instruments actually work.

You’re not likely to have a simultaneous vacuum failure, electrical failure and fully-iced pitotstatic system.

IMO, There’s no scenario for “losing the whole panel” in real life.
 
I am as guilty of falling into a bad POA habit as anyone. That is, attacking the premise on which you base your question rather than addressing the question. Though this thread is not a particularity bad example, you do have answers to your questions mixed in with criticism of the premise. I am just musing because I have no real answer for you beyond speculation because I am a steam gauge guy and not a gadget guy (not to imply that the two are mutually exclusive).

edit: I fear that I am a bit of an aviation Luddite.
 
As others have commented, the chances of losing your entire panel with steam gauges is very remote. The same cant be said about a glass cockpit but that's why the FAA requires the PFD and SFD be swappable and why you'll also still see some basic instruments (particularly the attitude indicator) even in aircraft with glass cockpits (particularly the airliners).

The biggest risk you face when flying instruments is going to be an electrical failure. Without power, you'll have no communications, VOR nav or GPS nav. For this reason I carry a handheld radio. They also sell handheld radios capable of VOR/ILS navigation; that's your best bet for a backup. It gives you the ability to communicate and to shoot VOR, LOC, ILS and even ASR/PAR approaches.
 
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I've got steam gauges, but a good moving map in the panel. Of all the stuff I have (autopilot, HSI, etc...) the moving map is the one I rely on the most.
 
“IF” and as mentioned before is a big if to lose everything, have a hand held fore flight and sentry/stratus with AHRS.
My adsb In is the sentry coupled with foreflight, the AHRS is accurate from the little I have played with it. I know it’s not legal, but if everything goes TU............... I’d use anything available to me.
 
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jeffs chips said:
Let's just say your *entire* panel goes down - steam gauges, partial panel instruments, radios, turn coordinator, auto pilot, HSI, altitude,radio (other than portable backup) everything in the *entire* panel. Entire as in *entire*. Kaput as in gone.
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Then you need to go play the lottery. That's like 8 different independent system failures. Maybe not 8, but far more than one should ever expect without also loosing the engine and wings.

Foreflight pro has a synthetic vision mode, so if the above is a legitimate concern for you, be sure to get the pro version and test it out to assure yourself it works.
 
Thanks all! Super educational and instructional - from everyone. Really appreciate the answers every single one of them both insightful and helpful. I just don't want to become a statistic whilst relying on technology that never fails. I'm pretty sure the people at Boeing would love to tutor me on what I should have done, but never say never. . . . I'll just buy two planes. That should settle it.
 
jeffs chips said:
Thanks all! Super educational and instructional - from everyone. Really appreciate the answers every single one of them both insightful and helpful. I just don't want to become a statistic whilst relying on technology that never fails. I'm pretty sure the people at Boeing would love to tutor me on what I should have done, but never say never. . . . I'll just buy two planes. That should settle it.
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The lack of vocal inflections is a disadvantage here. Trying to decide if we have all just been told to go fark ourselves. Leaning towards yes.
 
jeffs chips said:
My concern is that I know if steam gauges die in an approach,
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My concern would be making typical piloting errors that lead to deadly accidents far more than equipment failure.
They are also far more probable statistically, pilots die and rarely is is because of some equipment failure.
If steam gauges are your choice I would definitely invest in a portable terrain avoidance tool (like synthetic vision). You may get
it form ForeFlight are other sources.
 
Rgbeard said:
It seems you need a little education on how traditional instruments actually work.

You’re not likely to have a simultaneous vacuum failure, electrical failure and fully-iced pitotstatic system.

IMO, There’s no scenario for “losing the whole panel” in real life.
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Agree. The scenario the OP is concerned about will not be saved with a simple handheld backup as a much bigger problem just happened. That is a pull the chute moment if equipped of not then your time is up.
 
As others have mentioned, your "steam gauge" panel has electric components (typically turn coordinator, COM and NAV units), vacuum-driven components (typically AI and DG), and pitot-static components (ASI, VSI, altimeter). (You also have a compass but let's leave that out for now.) It is very unlikely you will lose more than one of these components with a system failure, and it is possible to fly with any two of these systems functional (although the pitot-static failure would be really confusing), and an IR pilot will practice partial panel with either electrics or vacuum "failed".

Having said that, it is not at all a bad idea to have a backup mapping navigator for positional awareness. This can potentially simplify navigation in a partial panel emergency. I have a Garmin AERA 510 mounted to the windshield bow and wired to ships power so it is always fully charged. If the entire electrical system crumped, I would still have about an hour or so of GPS navigation from the AERA battery. And of course an EFB tablet could perform the same function, although my AERA will also receive XM weather., which is a nice extra. Neither is really suitable for flying an IFR approach, but positional awareness will be a big help during a partial panel emergency. In a pinch, you can get pseudo-altitude from your GPS unit, but it could be a hundred feet off or more depending on the positional solution geometry. But approximate info is better than none, I suppose.
 
I was not being sarcastic or snarky, I truly appreciate all the great advise and ideas. No ill intent or otherwise and I apologize if my writing telegraphed that message to some readers.
 
This really looks interesting. Apparently it's sensor/electrical generator suspended under the wing which broadcasts all manner of aircraft orientation and other useful information wireless to the receiving monitor in the cabin. Pretty cool:


https://levilaviation.com/thebom/
 
foreflight pro subscription and a status2. Gives you moving map gps and AHRS.
 
jeffs chips said:
I was not being sarcastic or snarky, I truly appreciate all the great advise and ideas. No ill intent or otherwise and I apologize if my writing telegraphed that message to some readers.
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Don't worry about it, that's what we do here, especially to new guys. Just bring your thick skin, ignore the chaff and you'll be fine. I would reread Osalek's post as it is something that seems to hurt more pilots than equipment failures. As far as portable back ups, an ipad with foreflight and a portable unit like a Stratus could help. But it needs to be on and ready to go.
 
If you had a complete failure of any and everything, your concerns are FAR worse than staying IFR legal on approaches. At that point, you either maintain VFR (hopefully with a back up radio) and go find somewhere you have the gas to get in VFR, or you are in a major emergency and you use everything you can. At that point, you are doing compass turns and using engine noise, assuming your pitot static, vacuum and electrical systems all pooped the bed at the same time, which is probably less likely than being struck by lightning.

For such a catastrophic scenario, your best backup is likely a tablet talking to a GDL or Stratus.
 
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