Staying organized in the cockpit

[midlifeflyer]

If there were a good way to do all this on a tablet without switching apps and hunting for it, I might use it more.

It's a chicken and egg thing. If you use it more, you'll find it easier to use and realize there is a good way to do all this. It's about the exact same attention to organization one needs to do with paper. The problem are mostly the result of the "Children of the Magenta Syndromes" - an unjustified reliance of the electronic to do our job for us. But that's us, not the medium we use.

"Paper or plastic" is a personal preference but I can confidently say I "hunt" and have my head in the cockpit far less with the iPad than I ever did with pen and paper. In fact, to me that's the great advantage of the iPad, organizational efficiency. I can't think of a single piece of information I would need in flight that I couldn't get at easier, faster, and with less head-down time with a tablet than with the paper equivalent.

Of course, YMMV, which is obviously does. We fortunately come in all shapes and sizes and there's no requirement we all use the same technique to get to a given result.

 

[MAKG1]

If you say so...I've put significant thought into that. There is no single app that does it all, so switching between apps becomes a must. And then there is handling the multiple PDF files and the lack of something resembling a "shortcut" (a trick I've used in other contexts to streamline application switching). There is no way to sequence the switches, or even co-locate them, or this problem would be much smaller.

And to pick a PDF file other than the last one I used, I get to hunt through a file chooser. This is not acceptable. And my checklists are PDFs.

I know where to find stuff, but it's clunky and isn't faster than looking up frequencies on the printouts (which have all the frequencies, TPA, airport diagram, etc. all on the same sheet of paper). That AOPA printout has everything I need for an approach and landing right there. The tablet doesn't; it's in multiple screens. One for navaids, one for runways, one for frequencies, one for "general" (TPA), and a separate PDF viewer for the airport diagram (which, of course, forgets about my checklist). How you can "find stuff" like that faster is beyond me.

Part of that is Garmin interfaces. Those clowns can't design a sensible interface in any of their products, let alone one they rush out the door regularly with significant bugs.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Well, I hate to break it to you, but this is the direction we are headed. Printed charts will become harder and harder to come by as fewer places carry them.

On the up side, this is now the third year I've flown with my iPad and second with my Nexus. Neither have failed me in flight....ever....but I do still carry both with current subscriptions and multiple backup batteries.

Just finished a 15 hour trip in a Cherokee from MN to CA and used both the entire trip with nary a glitch.

People transitioned from sextants to radios and survived. I suspect we will survive this transition, too.

Sextants to radio nav, they still had a MAP!

I did a checkride a little while ago, the DPE said something about my iPad, I said I hope this is ok with him and pulled out my NOS paper plates and yoke clip, he smiled and nodded his head.

I can breeze through a 430/G1000 etc, I used to be a computer teacher while I was in flight school, I know tech and I know that you're a idiot to go 100% electronic. Ive seen much better built computers screw up, I cant tell you how many blown caps I've seen in Macs, busted screens, F'd batteries, power supplies etc.

Why don't you guy ditch your mags too??? Just go electronic for everything lol

I like knowing that I have a map that will not turn off, malfunction, lock up, run out of power, etc.

Even when I have my PFD and MFD up for a approach I'll still have my chart folded to position handy and my plate on my yoke clip.


I've had a number of failures in my flight time, alternators, bugged up pitots, full engine failures, chit happens... and I have yet to so much as scratch the paint on a plane. I hedge my bets and keeping paper is one way I do that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you say so...I've put significant thought into that. There is no single app that does it all, so switching between apps becomes a must. And then there is handling the multiple PDF files and the lack of something resembling a "shortcut" (a trick I've used in other contexts to streamline application switching). There is no way to sequence the switches, or even co-locate them, or this problem would be much smaller.

And to pick a PDF file other than the last one I used, I get to hunt through a file chooser. This is not acceptable. And my checklists are PDFs.

I know where to find stuff, but it's clunky and isn't faster than looking up frequencies on the printouts (which have all the frequencies, TPA, airport diagram, etc. all on the same sheet of paper). That AOPA printout has everything I need for an approach and landing right there. The tablet doesn't; it's in multiple screens. One for navaids, one for runways, one for frequencies, one for "general" (TPA), and a separate PDF viewer for the airport diagram (which, of course, forgets about my checklist). How you can "find stuff" like that faster is beyond me.

Part of that is Garmin interfaces. Those clowns can't design a sensible interface in any of their products, let alone one they rush out the door regularly with significant bugs.

it certainly could be the interface. Ease of getting around and quick access to information is one of the reasons for my ForeFlight decision. For example, my checklists are also PDFs, loaded into FF. A single tap brings me to it. Same for all the information for the airport, frequencies, TPA, runway information, full AFD if I choose, AOPA data. Airport diagram is 2-3 taps except for the destination. That one pops up on the screen as soon as I land with no action on my part.

You've likely crated a level of organization that makes it easy for you to find it on paper. I did too when i flew with paper. now i have it on a tablet. Same goal, different medium. I would not use a process that made things more complicated for me. My brain just doesn't work that way.

I'm pretty much medium neutral abouth this stuff. Been so for a long time. I don't think one medium is inherently superior to another. It's all in the choices me make on how and what to use.

 

[LDJones]

We didn't use much pilotage at FL430 but the concept of redundancy isn't limited to any particular discipline. My observation of GA pilots who have access to the "magic of the magenta", whether panel-mount or hand-held, is that they will use it to the exclusion of other modes. I like GPS too, but know that it doesn't always work and like to have another to know where the hell I am or might want to go if/when TSHTF. Having it already dialed up and ready to use is even better.

I couldn't agree more. As we flew to CA from MN last weekend we regularly dialed up the nearby VORs and monitored the radial/DME as a backup. Used ASOS/AWOS every 50-100 miles, too, when not on flight following or IFR.

Use all the tools available. Avoids surprises.

 

[LDJones]

Anyone use their iPad to take notes as well? I've been debating this...

I record times and clearances on the notepad feature. Then do periodic screen captures as backup, which I can then e-mail to myself.

 

[LDJones]

I hedge my bets and keeping paper is one way I do that.

Just be thinking ahead to the day when the paper won't be available. That day is coming...perhaps sooner than we think. Current charts are becoming increasingly difficult to find at many airports.

Better archive a few WAC charts for posterity.

 

[LDJones]

My personal opinion is that the scratchpad feature stinks. It's hard to write with a fingertip, and you take up room on the screen so fast that you run out. I prefer a small notepad for copying clearances or frequencies given by ATC.

A stylus works well....although I use my finger quite a bit. It's far from perfect, but gets the job done for me.

 

[LDJones]

If you say so...I've put significant thought into that. There is no single app that does it all, so switching between apps becomes a must. And then there is handling the multiple PDF files and the lack of something resembling a "shortcut" (a trick I've used in other contexts to streamline application switching). There is no way to sequence the switches, or even co-locate them, or this problem would be much smaller.

And to pick a PDF file other than the last one I used, I get to hunt through a file chooser. This is not acceptable. And my checklists are PDFs.

I know where to find stuff, but it's clunky and isn't faster than looking up frequencies on the printouts (which have all the frequencies, TPA, airport diagram, etc. all on the same sheet of paper). That AOPA printout has everything I need for an approach and landing right there. The tablet doesn't; it's in multiple screens. One for navaids, one for runways, one for frequencies, one for "general" (TPA), and a separate PDF viewer for the airport diagram (which, of course, forgets about my checklist). How you can "find stuff" like that faster is beyond me.

Part of that is Garmin interfaces. Those clowns can't design a sensible interface in any of their products, let alone one they rush out the door regularly with significant bugs.

I use the Documents feature in ForeFlight extensively....hundreds of documents in a dozen or so folders. If I'm going on a long trip I can setup a folder for that trip and organize any PDFs I need for it in that folder. In ForeFlight it's one tap to switch between the Map and the Document. Two more taps to switch documents. For me, that's far less work and less distracting than juggling a bunch of paper.

 

[FORANE]

I too was hesitant to let go of the paper. Kind of like Linus with his blanket I just had to have it in the plane as a backup. I added Anywhere map charts and after using it for a while started weaning myself from paper just printing plates I intended to use. As I became more proficient with the electronic hardware and software I found I could pull up whatever I needed faster on the tablet than the paper.

Backup? I have Anywhere map on my Samsung galaxy note if need be.
Never once had a crash. It has internal battery and will continue to function in the event of complete electrical failure in the plane.

Clearance copy? 2 taps on Anywhere map gets me to a clearance copy screen but my fat finger doesn't do too well. So, I have a pen Velcroed on the panel with a post it note pad within reach.

With the exception of the notepad I am completely paperless. Like others have stated, once proficient with the software you can look outside rather than trying to locate where you may be on paper.

The hardware you choose will play a very significant role in your experience. I currently run the Asus TF700 which has 600 nits brightness. With a matte screen protector it is truly sunlight readable and with a multi-touch screen it is more readable than paper.

For the OP, in training depending on your instructor, you must learn, plan and fly way-points the old ways. That is good in training but does tend to lead to paper juggling organizational issues. Some will criticize abandoning those techniques. I would assert my situational awareness and safety is much improved with the electronic tools and maintaining fluency in the use of those tools.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Just be thinking ahead to the day when the paper won't be available.

Are.....you......serious??

 

[moonshine]

Are.....you......serious??

Pretty sure he is.
I carry small notepads for writing stuff down, other than that - paperless since 2010. Checkrides included - IR and CP.

It's ok to insist on being a special case. Tailwheel, paper charts, swave and deboner just realise that not everyone out there's like that and it's ok too

 

[MAKG1]

Are.....you......serious??

Apparently he is.

But we all remember how offices went paperless in the late 1970s, right?

http://www.businessweek.com/stories...siness-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice

 

[jpower]

Learn how to fold a sectional so you have available the part you want.

Oh what an art that is.

 

[wabower]

I'll accept "paperless" claims like yours that are realistic about the need for other tools from time to time. Some of the others could lead to some interesting wagers.

I too was hesitant to let go of the paper. Kind of like Linus with his blanket I just had to have it in the plane as a backup. I added Anywhere map charts and after using it for a while started weaning myself from paper just printing plates I intended to use. As I became more proficient with the electronic hardware and software I found I could pull up whatever I needed faster on the tablet than the paper.

Backup? I have Anywhere map on my Samsung galaxy note if need be.
Never once had a crash. It has internal battery and will continue to function in the event of complete electrical failure in the plane.

Clearance copy? 2 taps on Anywhere map gets me to a clearance copy screen but my fat finger doesn't do too well. So, I have a pen Velcroed on the panel with a post it note pad within reach.

With the exception of the notepad I am completely paperless. Like others have stated, once proficient with the software you can look outside rather than trying to locate where you may be on paper.

The hardware you choose will play a very significant role in your experience. I currently run the Asus TF700 which has 600 nits brightness. With a matte screen protector it is truly sunlight readable and with a multi-touch screen it is more readable than paper.

For the OP, in training depending on your instructor, you must learn, plan and fly way-points the old ways. That is good in training but does tend to lead to paper juggling organizational issues. Some will criticize abandoning those techniques. I would assert my situational awareness and safety is much improved with the electronic tools and maintaining fluency in the use of those tools.

 

[LDJones]

Apparently he is.

But we all remember how offices went paperless in the late 1970s, right?

Way different paradigm here. Technology made reprinting that 5 page report to correct three errors much easier than reshuffling replacement pages. But we have made pretty significant progress towards paperless in our lives. I'm currently paperless with:
- My insurance company
- My electric company
- My credit card processor
- All five banks I deal with: no paper statements, no returned checks

And that list is growing.

With respect to charting, think of the explosion in GPS approaches we've seen in the last five years. Little tiny airports that never had a prayer of getting ground-based nav gear now have a GPS approach...or two. How many books of approach plates will be practical to carry?

Locally here we've seen a massive reduction in chart availability, and we've been told it will get worse. We only have what do now because multiple FBOs went together to get charts through one subscription that could meet the fed's demands, but that's in jeopardy.

I'm no spring chicken, but I think we'll see the end of paper charts in my flying career.

 

[AggieMike88]

I think one of the single-most handy gadgets for cockpits are the little wire-spring pencil holders. Most of them hold three pencils/pens/markers and will fit almost anywhere. Under the glareshield, on an old ashtray or sunvisor, or wherever you want them. And dirt cheap.

I've been trying to find some of these, but no luck on Sportys or Spruce... anyone have a source?

 

[wabower]

Staples or others of their ilk.

I've been trying to find some of these, but no luck on Sportys or Spruce... anyone have a source?

 

[MAKG1]

I've been trying to find some of these, but no luck on Sportys or Spruce... anyone have a source?

Every pilot store I've walked into has these. If you want an example, try The Airport Shoppe at KRHV. I think they have a small online catalog.

I doubt it's profitable to sell such dinky and cheap stuff online.

 

[AggieMike88]

Staples or others of their ilk.

Really? Huh... whooda thunk... Well, since I needed to get something from there anyhow, I guess I know where I'm spending some of my lunch hour.

 

[MAKG1]

Way different paradigm here. Technology made reprinting that 5 page report to correct three errors much easier than reshuffling replacement pages.

Nope. That was the IBM Selectric, the first word processor. The Paperless Office was an idea from Xerox PARC that everyone would have video display terminals (this was just before the Apple I, also invented in Palo Alto) on their desks, so it would be unnecessary to print anything. People could just read them in their fancy electronic devices.

Not different at all.

 

[LDJones]

Nope. That was the IBM Selectric, the first word processor. The Paperless Office was an idea from Xerox PARC that everyone would have video display terminals (this was just before the Apple I, also invented in Palo Alto) on their desks, so it would be unnecessary to print anything. People could just read them in their fancy electronic devices.

Not different at all.

And you see no difference today from Selectric days? Seriously??

 

[LDJones]

Nope. That was the IBM Selectric, the first word processor. The Paperless Office was an idea from Xerox PARC that everyone would have video display terminals (this was just before the Apple I, also invented in Palo Alto) on their desks, so it would be unnecessary to print anything. People could just read them in their fancy electronic devices.

Not different at all.

BTW, the Selectric was just a changeable font typewriter. You're thinking of the memory typewriters.

 

[AggieMike88]

Really? Huh... whooda thunk... Well, since I needed to get something from there anyhow, I guess I know where I'm spending some of my lunch hour.

Some more Google Fu found the spring clips on Sportys http://www.sportys.com/Pilotshop/product/8774

 

[MAKG1]

And you see no difference today from Selectric days? Seriously??

I see little difference between assertions that everyone will hold all their documents in some flashy gizmo in 1975, and the same assertion almost 40 years later.

Lots of details have changed, but nothing has made paper obsolete. For that to happen, your gizmo would need to be an earth-shaking improvement over paper. It isn't even close. There are tradeoffs; some things work somewhat better, some worse. Nothing huge.

That type of revolution does happen -- VisiCalc did it, and almost no one has used handwritten ledger sheets for decades. But you can still print substantially better than you can browse, and that has been static for decades.

 

[MAKG1]

BTW, the Selectric was just a changeable font typewriter. You're thinking of the memory typewriters.

Nope. Those were later. I had one in the mid-80s. Some of the Selectrics were fitted with magnetic tapes and were true word processors.

 

[LDJones]

I see little difference between assertions that everyone will hold all their documents in some flashy gizmo in 1975, and the same assertion almost 40 years later.

Lots of details have changed, but nothing has made paper obsolete. For that to happen, your gizmo would need to be an earth-shaking improvement over paper. It isn't even close. There are tradeoffs; some things work somewhat better, some worse. Nothing huge.

And that statement on its face is silly. We're walking around with portable devices with high resolution color displays that last up to ten hours and storing tens of gigabytes of data....more data than most mainframes supported back in 1975....and you see no difference from then??

Did you see what the Washington Post Sold for today? $295M. For one of the premier papers in the country, far more prominent than the Boston Globe which the NY Times purchased for over $1B barely a decade ago. It's estimated worth today is about $95M. Information is being consumed electronically at an ever-increasing rate.

And you think that trend away from paper won't impact aviation just as much?

 

[wabower]

None that I ever saw, including the one in my garage if you want to take a look.

Nope. Those were later. I had one in the mid-80s. Some of the Selectrics were fitted with magnetic tapes and were true word processors.

 

[LDJones]

Nope. Those were later. I had one in the mid-80s. Some of the Selectrics were fitted with magnetic tapes and were true word processors.

Yes, I'm very familiar with them. Worked with many law firms moving from all forms of those into PC word processing systems, then PC networks.

 

[MAKG1]

And that statement on its face is silly. We're walking around with portable devices with high resolution color displays that last up to ten hours and storing tens of gigabytes of data....more data than most mainframes supported back in 1975....and you see no difference from then??

Did you see what the Washington Post Sold for today? $295M. For one of the premier papers in the country, far more prominent than the Boston Globe which the NY Times purchased for over $1B barely a decade ago. It's estimated worth today is about $95M. Information is being consumed electronically at an ever-increasing rate.

And you think that trend away from paper won't impact aviation just as much?

High resolution?

A good paper print is 2400 DPI. A lame one from your desk printer is 300 or 600. Your tablet is, what, 72? The difference is insignificant for photos or for games and apps designed for smartphones, but for lines with fine detail like you get in a chart, it can make an enormous difference. There are GB of storage, but extremely inefficient representation; most of that is thoroughly wasted. You can get a simultaneous big-picture and detail view for paper; the dynamic range is more than an order of magnitude greater. You can compensate for that electronically, but it's just that -- compensation.

And I would really expect you to know this. Paper charts last for six months, not 10 hours.

Jonesy, you don't know what you're talking about here. That's why it doesn't make sense to you.

Why is the Washington Post sale relevant? Are you confusing paper with a NEWSpaper? Isn't that a bit like comparing the Time/Warner sale a few years ago to your tablet?

 

[eetrojan]

High resolution?

A good paper print is 2400 DPI. A lame one from your desk printer is 300 or 600. Your tablet is, what, 72?

Hi MAKG1 -

My iPad 2 has a resolution of 1,024 x 768 pixels at 132 pixels-per-inch.

I don't own one, but I understand that the iPad 3 has a so-called "Retina" display that is 2048 x 1536 at 264 pixels-per-inch. And, an iPad Mini is 1,024 x 768 pixels at 163 ppi.

That's getting pretty good.

 

[MAKG1]

Hi MAKG1 -

My iPad 2 has a resolution of 1,024 x 768 pixels at 132 pixels-per-inch.

I don't own one, but I understand that the iPad 3 has a so-called "Retina" display that is 2048 x 1536 at 264 pixels-per-inch. And, an iPad Mini is 1,024 x 768 pixels at 163 ppi.

That's getting pretty good.

It's better. I'll agree that it's "pretty good" when they can be folded out to at least a square yard at that resolution.

But that would be inconvenient because they can't be folded.

Sometimes the low-tech solutions really do work better. Sometimes an elaborate solution is an improvement. A good systems engineer knows the difference and takes ALL the variables into account, not just the newness. There are a lot of ways for a tablet to fail that just don't exist for paper. I'm hard-pressed to think of even one in the opposite direction. Maybe one of the fans can come up with something....yeah, a chart can fly out the door that pops open on rotation, but so can a tablet.

 

[LDJones]

High resolution?

A good paper print is 2400 DPI. A lame one from your desk printer is 300 or 600. Your tablet is, what, 72? The difference is insignificant for photos or for games and apps designed for smartphones, but for lines with fine detail like you get in a chart, it can make an enormous difference. There are GB of storage, but extremely inefficient representation; most of that is thoroughly wasted. You can get a simultaneous big-picture and detail view for paper; the dynamic range is more than an order of magnitude greater. You can compensate for that electronically, but it's just that -- compensation.

And I would really expect you to know this. Paper charts last for six months, not 10 hours.

Jonesy, you don't know what you're talking about here. That's why it doesn't make sense to you.

Why is the Washington Post sale relevant? Are you confusing paper with a NEWSpaper? Isn't that a bit like comparing the Time/Warner sale a few years ago to your tablet?

I guess I've never had to stare at a chart for six months straight. Most of my flights are well under 10 hours each.

The relevance of the newspaper article relates to how people are consuming information....increasingly via electronic means, not via printed paper.

Screen resolution is irrelevant when you have the underlying resolution and the ability to zoom. Have you ever used one of these devices??

Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about....

 

[MAKG1]

I guess I've never had to stare at a chart for six months straight. Most of my flights are well under 10 hours each.

The relevance of the newspaper article relates to how people are consuming information....increasingly via electronic means, not via printed paper.

Screen resolution is irrelevant when you have the underlying resolution and the ability to zoom. Have you ever used one of these devices??

Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about....

Yup, I have a tablet, and I use the zoom. That's the compensation I was talking about.

The argument you're making could easily have been made in 1975 (when Xerox made it), or 1990 (when gopher and news showed up) or 2000 (when social media started to pick up). There is nothing special about now, except that now is when you thought of it.

The Washington Post is not relevant. You could have said the same thing about Time Magazine when AOL bought it. And people did. We didn't go paperless then, either.

 

[LDJones]

Yup, I have a tablet, and I use the zoom. That's the compensation I was talking about.

The argument you're making could easily have been made in 1975 (when Xerox made it), or 1990 (when gopher and news showed up) or 2000 (when social media started to pick up). There is nothing special about now, except that now is when you thought of it.

The Washington Post is not relevant. You could have said the same thing about Time Magazine when AOL bought it. And people did. We didn't go paperless then, either.

Well, the original conversation was about cockpit organization, and the clear trend, whether you participate or not, is to electronic cockpits. The airlines are doing it, corporate operators are doing it, private pilots are doing it. I started transition two years ago. I carried paper for six months while proving the technology. Once I was satisfied I didn't need paper, I invested in backup technology and dumped paper. In a year and a half of flying paperless I've never needed the backup, but I often use it in conjunction with the primary. Which one is primary and which is secondary can vary flight to flight. Both work just fine.

So feel free to stick with whatever works for you as long as it works for you. Just don't be surprised when you find yourself with an expired chart and no one carrying the current one where you happen to be at the time. The number of chart outlets is steadily declining.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

It's better. I'll agree that it's "pretty good" when they can be folded out to at least a square yard at that resolution.

But that would be inconvenient because they can't be folded.

Sometimes the low-tech solutions really do work better. Sometimes an elaborate solution is an improvement. A good systems engineer knows the difference and takes ALL the variables into account, not just the newness. There are a lot of ways for a tablet to fail that just don't exist for paper. I'm hard-pressed to think of even one in the opposite direction. Maybe one of the fans can come up with something....yeah, a chart can fly out the door that pops open on rotation, but so can a tablet.

Well said

 

[wabower]

Thousands of pilots from airlines down to students seem to understand the benefits without the need for systems engineers. Why are they suddenly part of the conversation other than that you're out of answers with respect to the subject at hand?

It's better. I'll agree that it's "pretty good" when they can be folded out to at least a square yard at that resolution.

But that would be inconvenient because they can't be folded.

Sometimes the low-tech solutions really do work better. Sometimes an elaborate solution is an improvement. A good systems engineer knows the difference and takes ALL the variables into account, not just the newness. There are a lot of ways for a tablet to fail that just don't exist for paper. I'm hard-pressed to think of even one in the opposite direction. Maybe one of the fans can come up with something....yeah, a chart can fly out the door that pops open on rotation, but so can a tablet.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's better. I'll agree that it's "pretty good" when they can be folded out to at least a square yard at that resolution.

Wow! You've got some eyes! Aren't you worried about all that head-down time looking at a chart with a magnifying glass? So far, anyway I haven't really tried to see the potholes in the runway on either a paper chart or iPad.

 

[MAKG1]

Thousands of pilots from airlines down to students seem to think they understand the benefits without the need for systems engineers. Why are they suddenly part of the conversation other than that you're out of answers with respect to the subject at hand?

FTFY. Just because some people think something doesn't mean they are right. And the way that Alaska Airlines uses these is not the same as the way GA pilots do, so let's not lump them together, eh?

And I guess I'm not a pilot by your definition.

You know what systems engineering is, right? It's figuring out how the whole system works, rather than a part of it. Do you REALLY mean to argue that that is unnecessary?

 

[LDJones]

FTFY. Just because some people think something doesn't mean they are right.

And because their opinion differs from yours, they're wrong, right?

BTW, no one is telling YOU to not use paper. But you're pretty egotistical to suggest those who don't are wrong.