Starting purchase research, trouble narrowing choices

[iamtheari]

Family of 4, long weekend trips, once every other month. Hard to define range as there is no way to know where I will be living next year, but likely kept around the 200-300nm mark at most for a 4 day trip.

I have two thoughts on this. First, your two-axis autopilot requirement is not necessary and might require you to make other compromises such as price, engine time, other avionics, or even the quality of the autopilot itself. Second, I would focus on planes with lower fixed and semi-fixed costs. If truly 90% of your flying comes out to 600nm per month, we are talking about 50-60 hours per year. The difference between a $1,500 annual and a $3,000 annual spread across those hours costs $25-30/hr. I would be looking at Archers and 172s.

Another thing to consider is finding a flying club that you can get out of without losing your shirt. Your mission is in that area between renting and owning, which is where a flying club makes the most sense, but your inability to predict where you'll be based a year in advance limits your flying club options a bit. Finding an alternative to owning will help you define your mission before you buy.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

He’s talking about making 1000nm cross country trips. No way do you want to be doing that in a 172/Archer. He needs a faster airplane, minimum 150kt IMO.
A M20J will do it with 1 stop, 2 4-hour legs, probably the limit for most people, and can carry 1000lbs, by filling only to the tabs gets him closer to 1100, still plenty of fuel for 4 hour flight.
I would consider the J to be the slowest plane I would consider.


Tom

 

[Unit74]

Bro.... having been in the exact situation, my advice is just say no. Save up now and buy when you EAS. Buying and then letting it sit when they drop OCONUS on you is just a bad idea.

If you choose not to listen to my advise, buy a Piper PA32. It’s the suburban in small GA. Trust me, you are going to run out of useful load or CG quicker than you think with kids.

 

[iamtheari]

He’s talking about making 1000nm cross country trips. No way do you want to be doing that in a 172/Archer. He needs a faster airplane, minimum 150kt IMO.
A M20J will do it with 1 stop, 2 4-hour legs, probably the limit for most people, and can carry 1000lbs, by filling only to the tabs gets him closer to 1100, still plenty of fuel for 4 hour flight.
I would consider the J to be the slowest plane I would consider.


Tom

My theory is that, for every 100 people who ask what type of plane to get for their 1,000nm trips with their spouses and kids, 50 of them find out their spouses and/or kids hate flying, 45 realize that airline travel is safer and more reliable for that kind of trip, 5 buy a plane for the trip, only 3 actually fly the trip once, and only 1 flies it more than once. I'm not innocent of that, either.

If the OP and his wife and kids are really going to do the 1,000nm trips, I would not recommend anything so small as an M20J. The bulky kid stuff like car seats and diaper bags and having to stop for gas weigh against an M20J for that mission. The PA-32 is a better choice. A twin may be even better, if the OP can afford to stay proficient in it. No matter what plane he gets, that trip will have them in the plane for at least 5.5 hours each way and probably on the ground for 30-60 minutes once or twice along the way. More comfort in the plane probably means less time on the ground and possibly fewer stops.

But if the OP is really going to mostly be flying 300nm trips for long weekends, then cramming people into a four-seat plane like a PA-28 or M20 is not such a big deal. the speed differences are also less noticeable on those shorter trips, so I would not rule out a long-body M20 or PA-28, and be ready to buy on condition and equipment.

One thing the OP is doing 100% right is this:

To start off, I fully intend on this being a year or two long process in order to manage my expectations, and if the right one comes along that checks all the boxes, I can jump on it.

When I started shopping for a plane, I kept a log of the trips that I took by air, the trips I could have taken by air but drove, and the trips I could have taken by air but skipped altogether. I used that log to keep a running spreadsheet with each row representing a distance, each column representing a speed, and each cell representing the time it would take to cover that distance at that speed. That spreadsheet helped me eliminate the 100-knot planes as being too slow for my mission. It also helped me recognize which compromises were acceptable for my mission, because it showed how the trips I was flying the most often would not be substantially faster in a 150-knot plane than in a 130-knot plane, and the longer trips were acceptable in the 130-knot plane.

Spreadsheet in hand, when an Arrow in great condition with a known local history and good avionics came along for the right price, I was able to jump on it without any consternation at all and I have kept it for 3-1/2 years so far with no regrets. I endorse the OP's approach of patiently defining both his mission and how to recognize a plane that meets it, which will enable him to immediately grasp the opportunity when the right plane falls into in his lap.

 

[dmcummins]

So how do you go on a week long trip with 4 people the OP describes without “loading much in the baggage department”?

400lbs in the front two seats, 300lbs in the rear, 75 lbs in the baggage area. That and 44 gal of gas. Your going to have to stop for fuel at 3 hours, but with four your probably going to want to anyway.

I’m usually taking another couple, so my weights are probably higher than a family with kids, at least until they get bigger. My boys are 36 now and weigh over 220 each, so they have to fend for themselves.

 

[dmcummins]

I was looking to fill a similar mission, four seats and 140 Knots or more. After researching for about a week I narrowed it down to a f model Mooney or Bonanza. This was before the ruddervator problem. I didn’t think I could buy a Debonair at the time as they were out of my price range.

After another long week of looking at adds from barnstormer, and controller the wife saw a Debonair she liked the looks of. I bought it sight unseen and I couldn’t even fly it at the time as I was still a student pilot.

I was lucky as it’s been a good plane that I’ve owned for about 7 years. I don’t recommend my method though. But I won’t be called “Ben”.

 

[Salty]

400lbs in the front two seats, 300lbs in the rear, 75 lbs in the baggage area. That and 44 gal of gas. Your going to have to stop for fuel at 3 hours, but with four your probably going to want to anyway.

I’m usually taking another couple, so my weights are probably higher than a family with kids, at least until they get bigger. My boys are 36 now and weigh over 220 each, so they have to fend for themselves.

It's not the useful load, it's the space. Same problem I haven in my Mooney.

How are you going to travel with two little kids with clothes and such for a week with 75 pounds of baggage? It's probably doable, by shoving stuff under the kids and in every nook and cranny, but lord, I wouldn't want to. Getting out every 3 hours with crap stuffed everywhere is no more fun than sitting in the plane for a long time.

 

[Skyrys62]

^^^ agree..

Mooney's will be tight even to load all that stuff, much less when they grow.
For what you describe, my bareass minimum would be a 182, preferably a 206...those two doors (more on the 206), room, and useful will be nice. Plus a little shade.
If you want even easier loading, no retract, more room, and plenty of useful, the Cherokee Six is going to be hard to beat.

Speedwise, an hour or so could be saved with a faster plane, but 3 hours uncomfortable seems a lot longer than 4 hours comfortable.

Probably boils down to spending money on gas for comfort. Everything else cost wise would probably end up a wash.

 

[dmcummins]

After looking at his requirements,

360# in front
100# in back seats
195# in baggage area
63 gal of gas.

He would have to make a stop, and I don’t know about the volume requirements. The problem Is what can he get for the 75-80k. You won’t buy a A36 for that, and most 182s are going to be more. I don’t know the prices of Cherokee 6’s but I assume most 6 place planes are going to cost more. Maybe I’m wrong.

I think what fits the bill is going to be a Mooney F , a Debonair, or a older 182. Maybe a Cherokee 6, I’m not familiar with them. If he goes twin his other cost will rise. On the longer trips he may just have to shoehorn the Kids and there stuff in there.

 

[Barry]

fwiw, a 206, Bo, or a PA-32 will be my short list of planes, when I need to move up from my 182. 206 seem pretty pricey these days. Having retract @ Bo will get you some knots to get there a little faster, but increased insurance and maintenance too. To be honest the PA-32 is a great looking value for $ for a family hauler.

 

[dmcummins]

I would think the wife would like the doors on a 182. It would probably be much easier getting the kids in and out of the plane. And I just checked on barnstormers and they are not as expensive as I thought.

Also a 182 would probably be easy to sell I need be.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

It's not the useful load, it's the space. Same problem I haven in my Mooney.

How are you going to travel with two little kids with clothes and such for a week with 75 pounds of baggage? It's probably doable, by shoving stuff under the kids and in every nook and cranny, but lord, I wouldn't want to. Getting out every 3 hours with crap stuffed everywhere is no more fun than sitting in the plane for a long time.

But you have a short body, a mid body gives a little more room, and obviously a long body even more. The J you can fit close 20 cubic feet of luggage, that’s like 16 standard carry on duffel bags.
I agree you have to limit your bulky luggage. Pro tip: use soft sided luggage. Good thing is toys these days are small , but stuff like bicycles will have to stay home.


Tom

 

[MIFlyer]

I would think the wife would like the doors on a 182. It would probably be much easier getting the kids in and out of the plane. And I just checked on barnstormers and they are not as expensive as I thought.

Also a 182 would probably be easy to sell I need be.

good point. you can sell a 182 in a week if it's generally appealing and priced well. It sounds more and more like he needs either an A36 which is out of budget, a 206 which is also out of budget, or a PA32 or 205 which can be had in budget.

I know you'll be moving around, but partnerships in these kinds of planes can be had, particularly for the amount of hours you're considering. That said, i'm on the path to solo ownership, despite flying similar hours each year.

There are also people in situations like yours, so you can also look to create a partnership in a PA32. Particularly a fixed gear version, as it's not a big step up from someone who's been flying trainers around or who is outgrowing a 182.

 

[Unit74]

@Jakl15 where are you at? We have a few PA32 drivers round these here forums. I'm sure one of them would be up to letting you take a look-see.

 

[N1120A]

So how do you go on a week long trip with 4 people the OP describes without “loading much in the baggage department”?

Too much is over 200 pounds. A week trip with 4 people should never be that.

 

[1RTK1]

Too much is over 200 pounds. A week trip with 4 people should never be that.

You haven't traveled with my wife.............

 

[Salty]

Too much is over 200 pounds. A week trip with 4 people should never be that.

Have you ever travelled with toddlers and babies?

It’s not weight I was talking about.

 

[N1120A]

Have you ever travelled with toddlers and babies?

It’s not weight I was talking about.

Ah, I see what you mean. More like bulking out.

 

[Sinistar]

As a 182 owner and only 182 experience my vote is against the 182 if the 1000nm trip would be anything other than a rarity with time to spare. Here are a few reasons against:

1. The Wife Will Be In Back: Although the back seat has a pretty good amount of room amongst all the 4-seaters, its still not exactly wide. There is a huge amount of leg room once the pilot and co-pilot are seated However the seat is very low (think bent knees) Most importantly, with your kids at these ages there is a 197% chance your wife will be in back with them instead of up front. She will have room but with a car seat she will feel like she's in the back of a Honda Civic with a lowered seat.

2. No way to have wife and both kids in back: No explanation needed. No way for all three in back of a 4 seater. I could see times at small ages where they might all want to be in back with mom.

3. Small Kids & 182 Panels: The panel in a 182 is very tall. Its my now 11yo daughter's number 1 complaint. Even with a 4" seat cushion its hard for her to see over the panel. Since I am guessing the older kid will usually be up front they will enjoy it but when it comes to flying it will be difficult for them until they probably reach 5ft tall. An adjustable seat would help but only so much.

4. Too Slow For 1000nm: I have some trips to about 500nm (one way). I think its fine for that. I've done one leg almost that long with a tailwind. With a headwind I know I would want to make a stop. Making any stop, especially with kids means like 1hr vs the theoretical 12minutes us guys think it will be. Once you add kids I think the 3hr mark can be pushing it. Unless of course they can pee while flying. I would bring those blue potty bag things with so my daughter knew she could go if she had to. Even had her try one at home first. That made her relax and she's never needed one. But 3hrs is a lot for a small kid. So you want that 3 hours to cover more than 450sm (which is fixed gear 182 speeds).

The OP has tons more flight experience than I will ever have and in way more types. So my only real question is can you afford that 1000nm trip?

Lets say you find a 150kt plane and fully loaded it burns 14gph. That is 13.3hrs of cruise and doesn't count climb outs, headwinds, diversions, etc. So lets say 16hrs of flight. That would be 2 x 8hr days. That equates to about $1300 of fuel. At a minimum you want to add in another $30/hr towards engine reserve so that's another $480 and how you are up to almost $1800. You'll most likely avoid ramp fees with fuel purchase but the one overnight each way will probably cost you $50/night for hangar and another $150/night for hotel rooms and food so now you are up to $2,200 for the trip. It would seem like a 170kt airplane can make this a one day trip with just one stop and cut several of the costs. But then again, higher costs.

I love the 206 - but just know there isn't a co-pilot door. Your little co-pilot or wife will have to crawl across the front or in from the bug huge side door (which is awesome).

You also mention not flying it when stationed away. When I was in the Navy I hated doing that just with my car. This might be a place where something like a 182 (fixed gear) is ideal. You could easily rent it out or have someone fly it about 50hrs per year for you. It will be just fine. Simple annuals and lot of people can fly it. And agree with the others. In almost all economies (other than total bust) a 182 seems to be in demand and pretty easy to sell if kept in decent shape. If your family ends up not liking trips beyond say 400nm just keep the 182 or similar low wing. If you are loving the travel, can afford it and want the comfort and speed you shouldn't be out much money and you can actually take your time to buy the bigger plane since the 182 should sell fast.

Probably most important. Have your wife sit in the back seat - that's where she will be sitting. That should help her justify the money on the bigger (6 seat plane) you want

If I knew I was going to do 1000nm trips once in a while and 500nm trips often I would want a TTx (1st) or SR22 (2nd) and I am a high winger!.

 

[N1120A]

If I knew I was going to do 1000nm trips once in a while and 500nm trips often I would want a TTx (1st) or SR22 (2nd) and I am a high winger!.

And why not the superior Mooney?

 

[Sinistar]

And why not the superior Mooney?

Only because I'm spending money I don't have LOL!

Well I just figured they have a door on each side and maybe more comfortable for a family of 4. Don't know much about Mooney but I think I recall the new Acclaim has both doors and even faster so add it to the list

 

[N1120A]

Only because I'm spending money I don't have LOL!

Well I just figured they have a door on each side and maybe more comfortable for a family of 4. Don't know much about Mooney but I think I recall the new Acclaim has both doors and even faster so add it to the list

Yep, both the Ovation and Acclaim now have doors on both sides, and will burn up a TTx or SR22, while burning less gas.

 

[Jakl15]

There aren't very many GA airplanes that qualify as Family Trucksters, but a Cherokee six 300 or a Cessna 207 will hold more than just about anything without an airstair door...

Too bad the 207 is too rare and unavailable in the U.S.

Yeah, honestly it is looking more and more like a 6 place is the way to go, whether that be a 206, 210, or Six/Lance variant.

182. When fam gets bigger time for a twin. St least that’s my plan.
I have wife and two kids 8 and 10yo. Like 300nm or longer trips. 182 perfect for us now. Can really load it down and will fly. Not fast but reliable and not hard to keep in air money wise. We have good IFR platform and use.
As Family gets bigger I feel a twin would be next best move. I think market for piston twins will be better in a few years too. IMO.
But all this lance talk has me thinking. A hangar buddy keeps telling me to get checked out on his lance and take her out once in insurance. Might have to give it a ride.

I'd love a twin, but selling the wife on the doubled costs will likely be difficult. I've only ever ridden in a B55 and a Twin Comanche, both were fantastic airplanes.

Based on some of your picks, it seems like speed is not paramount. The trick is weeding out the 2+2 planes (C172, etc) and finding true 4-up planes. That's going to be useful loads in the 1200# ballpark or so.

Some unusual thoughts to consider:

The Debonair G33 is a weird one, with a 260HP motor, and I've seen them in your price range. 260 is a nice sweet spot for the 33/35 series, and that motor skips the engine problems that surround the front alternator.

The Beech Super Musketeer is way out of left field, but worth a sniff. 128kts makes it the slug in your lineup by at least 10kt, but the one we used to own was a crazy heavy hauler with a 1300# useful load. Some have two doors. You can find solid ones starting around 35K and a yoked one would be unlikely to go for more than 60K. With full tanks (60gal), ours still had 940# for beef and bags. 10gph, cheap as chips to run and operate.

You found the Dakota 235 and C182 already. Those will be easy to re-sell when the time comes to move up or down.

Early 4-seat 210s seem worthy of consideration. If you can find a 205/206 for that money, it's worth approaching with caution. You might find a diamond in the rough.

All of the PA32s seem like good lifters, both FG and RG, and I love the interiors in em. Mama will like her seat, which will make selling those Annuals a little easier.

I know these threads usually devolve into "you need at least a 737 for that mission, and also consider a G550" but light twins might be an option if you can stomach the 2X maintenance an fuel bill. Other than limping around on one engine, lifting large payloads is about the only trick they're reliably good at.

Good luck on the hunt. As mentioned above, it's a good time to soak in data, watch the market, and be ready to strike when planes start showing up with desperate sellers who over-stretched. Find for-sale ads circa 2008-2010 as a target

$0.02

Honestly speed is not paramount, but definitely a factor. I figured the higher TAS would give us more flexibility for later on when we get moved elsewhere.

I really need to find someone or a rental Deb and Six to check out how it would load up.

The entire intent of this post was to just gather data and see what courses of action were out there. I appreciate the input!

Piper Saratoga II PA-32-301 and 301R. Club seating. Not the fastest planes in the sky, but good, comfy haulers. Well supported by Piper and Lycoming.

-Skip

Togas are probably a little high in price, but a Lance would likely hit the sweet spot.

I went 182H recently as my first purchase, have wife and two boys 8 & 15. Has 1079lb useful, plenty of room, great for us, now. Fits all of us plus 100lbs baggage and 60 gallons to stay in limits, flys 130kts. Once these boys get another 8-10 years on them, won’t be enough useful load to go anywhere far though. Yours are younger so you will have plenty of time. Hard to beat a 182, not great at anything, good at most everything

This and the resale is probably unbeatable!

 

[Jakl15]

Just food for thought...
You’re going to pay a premium for a low or mid-time engine vs a runout. This may end up as wasted funds, should the engine crap out earlier than TBO. No matter how well you borescope, etc, you could wind up making metal or having other issues earlier than expected.
Conversely, if you buy an otherwise stellar airplane with a runout engine, you have negotiating power and will come out the other side with a new engine that only you have owned and operated. Further, the runout engine may give you more use prior to an overhaul being necessary and then you’ve gotten a price break and additional use.

I've never thought of it this way. Thanks for that! Maybe I do need to be shopping for something with 2-300 left TBO

I have two thoughts on this. First, your two-axis autopilot requirement is not necessary and might require you to make other compromises such as price, engine time, other avionics, or even the quality of the autopilot itself. Second, I would focus on planes with lower fixed and semi-fixed costs. If truly 90% of your flying comes out to 600nm per month, we are talking about 50-60 hours per year. The difference between a $1,500 annual and a $3,000 annual spread across those hours costs $25-30/hr. I would be looking at Archers and 172s.

Another thing to consider is finding a flying club that you can get out of without losing your shirt. Your mission is in that area between renting and owning, which is where a flying club makes the most sense, but your inability to predict where you'll be based a year in advance limits your flying club options a bit. Finding an alternative to owning will help you define your mission before you buy.

The two-axis autopilot may be overkill, but the convenience and safety of having one would just put my mind at ease hauling around the family.

I should probably update my 90% mission a little better. Yes, I plan to take it on weekend trips every other month or so, but some shorter trips in-between. Like go for lunch, or go out to the beach, etc.

Your last point is something I haven't really considered and I'm glad you brought up! There isn't a club at any of the nearby airports, but there is one in the nearest major city that has a decent size fleet (6 planes, from a 172 to an Ovation) and its around $130/month. This might be the best way to define a mission.

He’s talking about making 1000nm cross country trips. No way do you want to be doing that in a 172/Archer. He needs a faster airplane, minimum 150kt IMO.
A M20J will do it with 1 stop, 2 4-hour legs, probably the limit for most people, and can carry 1000lbs, by filling only to the tabs gets him closer to 1100, still plenty of fuel for 4 hour flight.
I would consider the J to be the slowest plane I would consider.


Tom

I wouldn't want to do anything over a lunch run in a 172 with my wife and 2 kids seeing as they would both need car seats. 150KTAS would be nice, and I think the Lance can get there. Way more thirsty than the Mooney, but it can also carry all of the kid "accessories"

Bro.... having been in the exact situation, my advice is just say no. Save up now and buy when you EAS. Buying and then letting it sit when they drop OCONUS on you is just a bad idea.

If you choose not to listen to my advise, buy a Piper PA32. It’s the suburban in small GA. Trust me, you are going to run out of useful load or CG quicker than you think with kids.

Thanks for posting! I'm up for a move in the next 12 months so that will really dictate whether or not we actively search for a plane once we get our assignment. If it is OCONUS, well we will just chill. If it is CONUS, then we will start trying to better define our mission. Based on previous posts here, that will likely be done via a flying club once we get to our new base.

 

[Jakl15]

My theory is that, for every 100 people who ask what type of plane to get for their 1,000nm trips with their spouses and kids, 50 of them find out their spouses and/or kids hate flying, 45 realize that airline travel is safer and more reliable for that kind of trip, 5 buy a plane for the trip, only 3 actually fly the trip once, and only 1 flies it more than once. I'm not innocent of that, either.

If the OP and his wife and kids are really going to do the 1,000nm trips, I would not recommend anything so small as an M20J. The bulky kid stuff like car seats and diaper bags and having to stop for gas weigh against an M20J for that mission. The PA-32 is a better choice. A twin may be even better, if the OP can afford to stay proficient in it. No matter what plane he gets, that trip will have them in the plane for at least 5.5 hours each way and probably on the ground for 30-60 minutes once or twice along the way. More comfort in the plane probably means less time on the ground and possibly fewer stops.

But if the OP is really going to mostly be flying 300nm trips for long weekends, then cramming people into a four-seat plane like a PA-28 or M20 is not such a big deal. the speed differences are also less noticeable on those shorter trips, so I would not rule out a long-body M20 or PA-28, and be ready to buy on condition and equipment.

One thing the OP is doing 100% right is this:

When I started shopping for a plane, I kept a log of the trips that I took by air, the trips I could have taken by air but drove, and the trips I could have taken by air but skipped altogether. I used that log to keep a running spreadsheet with each row representing a distance, each column representing a speed, and each cell representing the time it would take to cover that distance at that speed. That spreadsheet helped me eliminate the 100-knot planes as being too slow for my mission. It also helped me recognize which compromises were acceptable for my mission, because it showed how the trips I was flying the most often would not be substantially faster in a 150-knot plane than in a 130-knot plane, and the longer trips were acceptable in the 130-knot plane.

Spreadsheet in hand, when an Arrow in great condition with a known local history and good avionics came along for the right price, I was able to jump on it without any consternation at all and I have kept it for 3-1/2 years so far with no regrets. I endorse the OP's approach of patiently defining both his mission and how to recognize a plane that meets it, which will enable him to immediately grasp the opportunity when the right plane falls into in his lap.

All valid points. I hope to be one of the 1 that actually flies it. The more we look at it, the more attractive a flying club is in the short term. There is one locally that has a 6 and a Dakota in the fleet, which is definitely appealing.

The highlight of being ready to buy on condition and equipment is one of the driving factors of the initial post. The unfortunate part is it looks like I need to do some more work on definining my mission before I settle down between one or two models. If the 1000nm trip/week long vacation is a reality, the 6/Lance is probably the choice unless ruddervators go back in stock for V tails. Otherwise probably an Arrow or Mooney, maybe a 182, if it is just going to be short trips.

I love the idea of logging where we go and how. I can think of 2 trips off hand that would have been fantastic in a GA aircraft. I'll start working something like that to keep a comparison.

^^^ agree..

Mooney's will be tight even to load all that stuff, much less when they grow.
For what you describe, my bareass minimum would be a 182, preferably a 206...those two doors (more on the 206), room, and useful will be nice. Plus a little shade.
If you want even easier loading, no retract, more room, and plenty of useful, the Cherokee Six is going to be hard to beat.

Speedwise, an hour or so could be saved with a faster plane, but 3 hours uncomfortable seems a lot longer than 4 hours comfortable.

Probably boils down to spending money on gas for comfort. Everything else cost wise would probably end up a wash.

The Mooney was more of a half-way solution for keeping for a few years and then upgrading. Not sure of the cost-effectiveness of this, paying for and maintaining a simpler plane that has the necessary capabilites now, then upgrading when the time is right. More research is obviously required.

4 hours comfortable vs 3 uncomfortable, I completely agree. Especially when it would allow the wife to fly a leg in the back in club seating with the two kids (if CG allows) and entertain them.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

You should rent a small plane and take your wife to lunch, make it a decent distance away (>2 hours), then ask her she thinks.
You may find even 3-4 hours, non stop, no bathroom, no pressurization, etc is not appealing to her.
Remember, happy wife, happy life.


Tom

 

[Jakl15]

After looking at his requirements,

360# in front
100# in back seats
195# in baggage area
63 gal of gas.

He would have to make a stop, and I don’t know about the volume requirements. The problem Is what can he get for the 75-80k. You won’t buy a A36 for that, and most 182s are going to be more. I don’t know the prices of Cherokee 6’s but I assume most 6 place planes are going to cost more. Maybe I’m wrong.

I think what fits the bill is going to be a Mooney F , a Debonair, or a older 182. Maybe a Cherokee 6, I’m not familiar with them. If he goes twin his other cost will rise. On the longer trips he may just have to shoehorn the Kids and there stuff in there.

6's seem to be starting right in my budget and working into the mid 100s. I've never seen an A36 in decent shape for less than the high 100s, but 182s seems to be right in the sweet spot. Another point of this post is if it gets settled out to either a 6/Lance or a 210/206 and they are all well out of my price range, well then I guess I just need to take a little more time to save.

fwiw, a 206, Bo, or a PA-32 will be my short list of planes, when I need to move up from my 182. 206 seem pretty pricey these days. Having retract @ Bo will get you some knots to get there a little faster, but increased insurance and maintenance too. To be honest the PA-32 is a great looking value for $ for a family hauler.

the 6 option just keeps coming up. That rear passenger door too!

I would think the wife would like the doors on a 182. It would probably be much easier getting the kids in and out of the plane. And I just checked on barnstormers and they are not as expensive as I thought.

Also a 182 would probably be easy to sell I need be.

She actually loves flying and has loved her time in low-wing planes. We went on a few cross-countries in a 172 back in TX, but everything lately has been in Cherokee 180s or Archers. She has loved both setups. Getting the kids in the back seat of one, well that is untested.

But you have a short body, a mid body gives a little more room, and obviously a long body even more. The J you can fit close 20 cubic feet of luggage, that’s like 16 standard carry on duffel bags.
I agree you have to limit your bulky luggage. Pro tip: use soft sided luggage. Good thing is toys these days are small , but stuff like bicycles will have to stay home.


Tom

Luggage and toys aren't the concern, but I see your point. It is the car seats that easily take up the most volume. I'd be curious as to whether some of these planes would fit 2 of them side-by-side in the back now that I think about it.

@Jakl15 where are you at? We have a few PA32 drivers round these here forums. I'm sure one of them would be up to letting you take a look-see.

Goldsboro, NC

Have you ever travelled with toddlers and babies?

It’s not weight I was talking about.

^^ This. I remember when we used to airline places w/ carryon only. Now it is like we're moving a small village.

 

[Jakl15]

As a 182 owner and only 182 experience my vote is against the 182 if the 1000nm trip would be anything other than a rarity with time to spare. Here are a few reasons against:

1. The Wife Will Be In Back: Although the back seat has a pretty good amount of room amongst all the 4-seaters, its still not exactly wide. There is a huge amount of leg room once the pilot and co-pilot are seated However the seat is very low (think bent knees) Most importantly, with your kids at these ages there is a 197% chance your wife will be in back with them instead of up front. She will have room but with a car seat she will feel like she's in the back of a Honda Civic with a lowered seat.

2. No way to have wife and both kids in back: No explanation needed. No way for all three in back of a 4 seater. I could see times at small ages where they might all want to be in back with mom.

3. Small Kids & 182 Panels: The panel in a 182 is very tall. Its my now 11yo daughter's number 1 complaint. Even with a 4" seat cushion its hard for her to see over the panel. Since I am guessing the older kid will usually be up front they will enjoy it but when it comes to flying it will be difficult for them until they probably reach 5ft tall. An adjustable seat would help but only so much.

4. Too Slow For 1000nm: I have some trips to about 500nm (one way). I think its fine for that. I've done one leg almost that long with a tailwind. With a headwind I know I would want to make a stop. Making any stop, especially with kids means like 1hr vs the theoretical 12minutes us guys think it will be. Once you add kids I think the 3hr mark can be pushing it. Unless of course they can pee while flying. I would bring those blue potty bag things with so my daughter knew she could go if she had to. Even had her try one at home first. That made her relax and she's never needed one. But 3hrs is a lot for a small kid. So you want that 3 hours to cover more than 450sm (which is fixed gear 182 speeds).

The OP has tons more flight experience than I will ever have and in way more types. So my only real question is can you afford that 1000nm trip?

Lets say you find a 150kt plane and fully loaded it burns 14gph. That is 13.3hrs of cruise and doesn't count climb outs, headwinds, diversions, etc. So lets say 16hrs of flight. That would be 2 x 8hr days. That equates to about $1300 of fuel. At a minimum you want to add in another $30/hr towards engine reserve so that's another $480 and how you are up to almost $1800. You'll most likely avoid ramp fees with fuel purchase but the one overnight each way will probably cost you $50/night for hangar and another $150/night for hotel rooms and food so now you are up to $2,200 for the trip. It would seem like a 170kt airplane can make this a one day trip with just one stop and cut several of the costs. But then again, higher costs.

I love the 206 - but just know there isn't a co-pilot door. Your little co-pilot or wife will have to crawl across the front or in from the bug huge side door (which is awesome).

You also mention not flying it when stationed away. When I was in the Navy I hated doing that just with my car. This might be a place where something like a 182 (fixed gear) is ideal. You could easily rent it out or have someone fly it about 50hrs per year for you. It will be just fine. Simple annuals and lot of people can fly it. And agree with the others. In almost all economies (other than total bust) a 182 seems to be in demand and pretty easy to sell if kept in decent shape. If your family ends up not liking trips beyond say 400nm just keep the 182 or similar low wing. If you are loving the travel, can afford it and want the comfort and speed you shouldn't be out much money and you can actually take your time to buy the bigger plane since the 182 should sell fast.

Probably most important. Have your wife sit in the back seat - that's where she will be sitting. That should help her justify the money on the bigger (6 seat plane) you want

If I knew I was going to do 1000nm trips once in a while and 500nm trips often I would want a TTx (1st) or SR22 (2nd) and I am a high winger!.

Having the wife in the back is definitley something that has crossed my mind, but not until recently the desire to have all 3 in the back with just myself up front. Drives the point home more for a 6/Lance.

You're absolutely right about the 182 panel! That was one of my biggest surprises when I went from a 172 to a 182, and I'm 6'4.

Most of my hours are in military aircraft. I have maybe 220 in GA aircraft, most of which in 172/Cherokee/A36. The rest are just a few hours here and there, enough to be familiar.

Even at $2200, it is honestly not a whole lot more than flying everyone to TX. Tickets for 4 from RDU to DFW if not purchased 3 months in advance are easily pushing into the $1500 range, more if purchase later, and those are the non-refundable type. Add to that dragging the family over an hour to the airport and dealing with TSA/parking/etc, $2200 isn't terrible. We have a great local airport here (KGWW) and it is 5 min away. Granted who knows where we will be in a year.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why are 1000nm trips so difficult for people to imagine? Kinda like going to Oshkosh from TX, thats a 900+ mile trip and I'm sure that happens plenty.

You should rent a small plane and take your wife to lunch, make it a decent distance away (>2 hours), then ask her she thinks.
You may find even 3-4 hours, non stop, no bathroom, no pressurization, etc is not appealing to her.
Remember, happy wife, happy life.


Tom

Thats my plan next spring. I don't think 7 month pregnant wife is going to want to fly ANYWHERE.

 

[Jakl15]

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input. I can't believe how much advice has been posted in such a short time.

I should probably try to update my intent to prevent people from spending more time with the initial post. I found a local flying club I plan to joing which has a small but diverse fleet. I'll have the chance to fly an Arrow, Cherokee 6, and an Ovation. Monthy costs are low and will allow me to try out a few planes and take the family on some short trips in order to gauge their interest in each. By no means will that limit me to only being interested in purchasing what they have in their fleet, but it will just allow me to try out some 4 or 6 place planes and various missions over the year I have left at this location.

Depending on where my next assignemtn is, I'll just fight what I see. CONUS, we'll probably join another flying club if one is available (renting is cost prohibitive due to min hours per day), but hopefully we'll have enough data gathered in our time here to narrow down what we're interested in. If it is OCONUS, well obviously we'll just wait to see where we go after that. Save up more potentially and look at something a little bigger.

Again, thank y'all so much for taking the time to provide your input to my first post. Honestly I haven't narrowed it down a whole bunch, other than basically eliminating any 4 cyl planes. So as of right now the Cherokee 235/Dakota, Arrow, 6/Lance, 182, 206, 210, Deb, V tail Bo (pending ruddervators) are on the table. Depending on how the flying goes over the next 12+ months and how the family reacts to it will determine whether we go for something with good enough useful load for a weekend trip/long weekend (Cherokee, 182, Deb, Arrow), or something much longer haul (206, 210, 6/Lance, V tail).

 

[wheaties]

Why are people thinking 1000nm w/ wife and kids isn't going to happen?

Because 90+% of loved ones love you and not your hobbies. They fly with you because it makes you happy to fly your family somewhere. Many find small planes to be "sketch" as borrowed from one of the Flying Cowboys' wife.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

No one has mentioned the C210. Single engine 6 seater reasonably fast and hauls a good load.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I fly an Ovation, frequently with my wife and 2.5-year-old son, all over the country.

I often recommend a 182 as a first plane.

In this case, I wouldn't recommend either. We pack the Ovation pretty stinkin' full with just the three of us, thanks to the "kid accessories" like the car seat, toys, snacks, diaper bag, yadda yadda... I'm not sure it'll work if/when we're a family of four. Looking at maybe a 310 at that point.

Looking at your mission, I would immediately eliminate anything under 150 knots. That knocks out the 182, Cherokee Six, etc. 1000 miles is just a really long way to go in a small airplane unless you're going really fast. I can do that in two three-hour legs in the Ovation and everyone is still OK. If I made them sit in a 182 for 8 hours, it'd probably be the last time they flew with me on a trip!

I would also eliminate anything turbocharged. The up-high cruise speed is alluring, especially on long trips, but non-pilots don't tend to like straws up their noses. Hell, I don't like to use my O2 very much because it dries me out something fierce. Burning nostrils get annoying fast.

The budget is a bit of a sticking point. You won't find a good Ovation anywhere near $80K. In fact, you won't get a good M20J for that either. Or a good Debonair, or even a good 182. Partially because of this, as I was reading the OP, the Comanche 250/260 just struck me as the plane most likely to work for you in the short term. If you're multi-engine rated, a Twin Comanche could work too. And no, they're not twice as expensive. You only have two engines, not two airplanes, and purchase prices are pretty low on twins right now.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why are 1000nm trips so difficult for people to imagine? Kinda like going to Oshkosh from TX, thats a 900+ mile trip and I'm sure that happens plenty.

Too many people out there who either didn't have enough training to gain the confidence to attempt longer trips, or didn't have the money, or a million other reasons. Unfortunately, it seems like only a relatively small percentage of GA pilots ever get to the point where they routinely use small airplanes for travel.

OTOH, some of us have gotten there and there's nothing wrong with a 1000nm family trip. I just took the family from Milwaukee to Seattle in the Ovation, and that's 1500nm. You definitely need an aviation-positive family, though.

I should probably try to update my intent to prevent people from spending more time with the initial post. I found a local flying club I plan to joing which has a small but diverse fleet. I'll have the chance to fly an Arrow, Cherokee 6, and an Ovation. Monthy costs are low and will allow me to try out a few planes and take the family on some short trips in order to gauge their interest in each. By no means will that limit me to only being interested in purchasing what they have in their fleet, but it will just allow me to try out some 4 or 6 place planes and various missions over the year I have left at this location.

That's a great way to go about it, with little to no financial risk. I'm a big fan of flying clubs, and a flying club is part of what got me into the "1000-nm trip club".

Again, thank y'all so much for taking the time to provide your input to my first post. Honestly I haven't narrowed it down a whole bunch, other than basically eliminating any 4 cyl planes. So as of right now the Cherokee 235/Dakota, Arrow, 6/Lance, 182, 206, 210, Deb, V tail Bo (pending ruddervators) are on the table. Depending on how the flying goes over the next 12+ months and how the family reacts to it will determine whether we go for something with good enough useful load for a weekend trip/long weekend (Cherokee, 182, Deb, Arrow), or something much longer haul (206, 210, 6/Lance, V tail).

I would eliminate the Cherokee 235/Dakota, the fixed-gear PA32 (Cherokee Six), 182 (unless it's an R182 aka "182RG") and 206 as too slow. And did you eliminate the Comanche for some reason? I really think that might be where the budget will lead you. The Beeches tend to be a bit more on the expensive side unless they're in less than stellar condition. You don't want to buy the cheapest example of any type.

 

[Artimas]

IMO you'd get closest to what you want with a 6 seat Piper, like a Cherokee 6-300, a Cessna 206 (or 207 if you can find one), or an older Cessna 210.

 

[dudemize]

Jakl, I have a C33 Debonair and absolutely love it. My kids are 14 & 11, and we are still able to do full fuel (74 g usable) with light baggage (Useful 1060). My wife and I are about 340# and the kids are roughly 190#. My wife does not like legs longer than about 2 hours (I don’t either). I burn Mogas almost exclusively so I still like to leave home with as much fuel as possible. We definitely have to pack light (no more than about 10# per person). My wife usually puts her bag up front in the floorboard, and there is room between the seats for the kids bags if we were concerned about CG issues. With full fuel my wife can sit in the back and one of the kids can ride up front. At lighter fuel loads we have to watch the CG carefully doing that. It is usually fine as long as we have less than 75# in the baggage area.

We do have plenty of room to start leaving off fuel as the kids continue to grow or if we need to bring more baggage. The problem with the 6 seaters is that you are looking at a significant price bump. I bought my Deb in the mid 50s range. Any good 6 seater you will likely be almost double that or more (at least right now). It was not an option for me (I will not finance an airplane).

I’ve had my Deb for about a year. Mine has a high time engine (just over 1500 hrs) but it is running great with no issues. I wouldn’t necessarily rule out a higher time engine if the airframe itself is good. The old low compression IO-470J/K are about the best engines Conti ever made (mine is a K). Burning Mogas allows us to fly a lot and not worry too much about the fuel costs. We just flew a weekend trip to CMH (roughly 1+45 each way) and back, burning around 50g total. Total fuel cost $146 (89 oct ethanol free at 2.93 gal).

The C33A Deb would give you more power and more useful but I am not a fan of the 520 and you will pay quite a bit more. IMHO, the 225 hp IO470J/K is just fine (at least east of the Rockies).

As we all know, all planes are a compromise but the Deb has provided great utility at a reasonable price for our needs. I like hindsights idea of a Lance if prices come down a good bit. I wouldn’t mind a Lance myself but between the acquisition costs and much higher operating costs (bye bye Mogas) I would be forced to fly less.

You’re not too far from me, be happy to fly over and let you check out the Deb sometime. Always looking for an excuse to fly! I’m a mil guy myself (retired AF reserve).