Started Tailwheel Training (transition) J3 Cub

iWantWings

iWantWings

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I had my first tailwheel lesson in the 1943 Piper J-3 Cub (as talked about in the other thread where I asked for advice and got lots of good ones).

Here's what we did in Lesson 1
- preflight: things specific to the J-3
- how to move the Cub by its tail in tight space. This is great... no more tow bar.
- taxiing at normal speed; s-turns; 90* turns.
- high speed taxi on the runway: centerline.
- high speed taxi on the runway: switching from left side of runway, to center, to right side of runway, back to center, back to left side, etc.
- steep turns
- power off stalls
- "Dutch Rolls" (might be a misnomer: essentially banking left and right while using opposite rudder to maintain the nose on a fixed point).
- 3-point landings (not planned initially, but CFI had me do a few).

The things that did not go well:
- high speed taxi. The first time the CFI let me have the full controls during high-speed taxi, it seemed like it took only seconds before I seriously thought I would end up going perpendicular to the runway and then flip the Cub. Even thought I had read about it so often, I was overcorrecting with the rudder and each oscillation got bigger and bigger. I thought I totally sucked.

- 90* turns. On a few occasions where doing 90* turns I had deflected the tailwheel to the point i could not longer steer it. To "regain steering" of the tailwheel I knew that I had to use opposite brake to re-align it, but I just couldn't find the darn brake! And even though I had completely retarded the throttle, the plane still had forward momentum while locked in this turn and I ended up doing low speed 360* turns! I just could not find the brake with my heel (at times). It was never out of control and the CFI let me do my own thing, ha-ha, while asking me if i enjoyed going in circles :D

- taxing after 3-point touchdon; same problem as in high speed taxiing: deflecting the rudder too much then overcorrecting too late. CFI had to regain control.

The Things that went well
- Eventually the last of the high speed taxiing that we did were not too bad; these were the ones where CFI was asking me to start high speed taxi on the cernterline, then shift to left of centerline near rwy ednge, then back to centerline, then shift to right of centerline near rwy edge, etc.

- 3-point landings were surprisingly not bad. CFI didn't intend to do those the first day, but they went well enough where he had me do a couple.

- Airborne: no doubt the best part. I loved how maneuverable and responsive the J-3 Cub is; and it's as if you get "feedback" from the plane.

- Flying with the window open

- CFI saved my arse many times during high-speed taxi.

So that was day 1. I think from the last thread the quote below was probably the advice that I had underestimated, yet it had the biggest impact. Exactly what Keith wrote below (sorry, don't recall the user name), is what kept happening to me. At one point I thought I should just throw my shoes out and rudder barefoot.

One other piece of advice. Buy some skinny shoes. I got a tailwheel endorsement this past summer in a J3 and couldn't fit my feet flat between the front seat and the side of the fusealage to push on the rudders when sitting in the back seat while wearing regular sneakers. I ended up buying a pair of Converse Chuck Taylor shoes. They were much narrower than the sneaker and also had less padding on the bottom so you had more feel of the rudder through your feet. Good luck with the training. You will have a blast.

Keith
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Looking forward to lesson #2 (with new Converse Chuck Taylor shoes;))

Edit: Flight time was 1.6 hrs and CFI said I did "a good job and above average" for a first lesson. I think he just wants me to not give up lol.
 
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Didya, learn what your feet are for ??? :)
 
Good work. You'll get it. It's very simple.

Like driving a tricycle backwards! :lol:
 
I would say that, as I believe you commented in the earlier thread, those are odd mounting locations for the GPS and radio in a J3. Are you going to be doing solo flights in this plane or is it only used for dual instruction?
 
Cool! As said before, you'll learn quickly what your feet are for! I got my endorsement in a Husky and flew a J3 for a few hours. Wonderful little plane. Very forgiving tailwheel trainer, although not as much as a good Super Cub in my opinion.

Don't feel bad, I bumped the throttle my first time taxiing out in the husky and was backwards before I knew what was going on. You'll get the hang of the small measured rudder inputs before long.

Then maybe you'll fly a Luscombe and feel like you're a beginner again!

Have fun! Flying a taildragger is my absolute favorite thing to do in aviation
 
Needs more TV. Kidding, nice to see a real plane, have fun.
 
Lessons 2 and 3

Shortly after my 1st tailwheel lesson in the J3 Cub, I got kind of ill (flu with high fever and all the goodies) and had "tuned out".

But I finally have had my 2nd and 3rd lesson - here's a summary.

It's the Shoes
I got new shoes and they made a world of difference: I can fit my feet between the seat in front of me and the side of the fuselage, while also being able to find and feel the brakes with the heel. Good stuff.

High Speed Taxi
I got the hang of high-speed taxi (mostly). The procedure is something like this
1. When lined up on the runway, stick all the way aft.
2. Full power, holding stick back.
3. Some seconds thereafter (not many, goes by feel), stick forward (a lot). This will raise the tail.
4. Immediately reduce throttle (to about 1500RMP, or until it "feel right").
5. While maintaining this balance of throttle and forward pitch with the tail off the ground, use rudder as necessary to control direction.
6. Add a mix of: hold center of runway; then go left of center; then back to center; then right of runway; then return to center. Do this for all length of runway.
6. Rinse a repeat. I really enjoy doing this now at the start of every lesson.

3-point Landings
The approach is typical of any approach i've done before in the C172. Then it's time to get the plane in the 3-point attitude. Not difficult, but it's a bit hard for me to judge the distance above ground. Am i 5 feet of the ground? 2 feet? And it's important for me to know 'cuz I need to time the stick being completely aft just as all wheels touch - no later, not sooner. And it's these few seconds when I'm in "la-la land", waiting for the plane to sync while speed is bleeding off and stalls. Oh yeah, and maintaining the longitudinal alignment while seeing the sky only (it's like i'm afraid to look sideways or something). So I've got ways to go.

Wheel Landings
Did them for the first time at the end of the 3rd lesson. Beginner's luck? Probably - but I nailed them (so said the instructor). I did 3 towards the end of the lesson and they were all good. That really made me happy. I felt in control at all phases of the landing. Maybe because of the improved visibility, compared to the 3-point landing? Or could be because of the frequent high-speed taxi with tail up? I am not sure, but it seems to be working. I'll see if next lesson it's just as good or not.

Other Remarks
On power off, the little yellow cub just sinks. Slowly, but not much forward progress. So I keep the pattern tight because the glide ratio is... cub like ;)

Oh my. It is s*l*o*w. But "very happening" at any speed, incredibly responsive - it does exactly what you ask of it: be it right or wrong. It won't correct you.

The patterns were very "abbreviated" because of the reduced speed and climb rate. But always on the radio and with eyes out and it has been safe.

All my landings have thus far been power-off (well, not really - there are times when I misjudge and I have to add power to make it to the runway threshold safely or just head up against the wind with some authority). But there is no plan on "dragging it in".

We have yet to to fly with the door and window closed; I hope we never have to though. It's like a reach out and touch... air, lol. I love it. It does at times make me act goofy; it's is if i wanna hi-5 every plane that i see and I get all chatty and stuff on the radio. I need to calm down a little.

So by the 3'rd lesson I've accrued 4.5 hours.

New things
Crosswind take off - the Instructor demonstrated this; I'm mesmerized. For most of the length of the runway he's at full throttle, banked on one wheel, cross-controlled with the rudder and stick full forward (tail off the ground, of course). Before I try it I think I'll be chair flying that.

Last but not least, I really wanna take the time and record audio-video for as long as my old gopro battery lasts (about 45 mins). Maybe next lesson, next week.

I wrote too much. Hpefully I'll have a gopro video next time i post.
 
I could say that someday, you'll never know why you worried about those rudder pedals after you get to the point of handling them well, but that would be BAD advice. Don't ever lose focus of the rudder pedals while on the ground or it will get away from you. I've come close to it getting away from me, but it hasn't happened....... yet.

Now, I'm going to have to get a nose wheel endorsement since I'm about to start doing some of my flying in a 172.
 
If this is like most J3s you will notice the door will start to float up just before stall. Also with the door open you can glance down at the right wheel and see how high you are but you will learn to judge height and drift by looking out to the sides. Learning where to look is the biggest part of the process. Also you will find you are using your butt to sense yaw. When you get to the point of feeling the airplane starting to go right or left and correcting it before you can see it starting to move you've got it. Don
 
It can be difficult to judge your height in the flare, especially on very wide runways. One technique is to land just left of the centerline so that the stripes will give you a visual reference because a wide expanse of featureless asphalt will not provide one. It's similar to how bush pilots land in snow by first dropping a few pine boughs for visual cues.

I think you have already discovered that wheel landings in a Cub are quite easy. They are more difficult in something like a later model Citabria with the soft spring gear as it's difficult to determine when the wheels have made contact.

I'll ask again: are going to be soloing in this Cub? Because if you are you're going to have a heck of a time reaching the radio and gps from the back seat. :dunno:
 
Radio? GPS? The OP is learning to fly a J3 Cub. He don't need no stinking electronics.:)

My first 7 hours back in 1992 were in an Aeronca Champ with no radio. Flights I will never forget. $25 an hour for the plane and $15 an hour for the instructor IIRC.
 
yakdriver said:
If this is like most J3s you will notice the door will start to float up just before stall. Also with the door open you can glance down at the right wheel and see how high you are but you will learn to judge height and drift by looking out to the sides. Learning where to look is the biggest part of the process. Also you will find you are using your butt to sense yaw. When you get to the point of feeling the airplane starting to go right or left and correcting it before you can see it starting to move you've got it. Don
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Don, sometimes I think there's something wrong with the seat of my pants. Maybe I've been on the hot seat too much of my life.

Anyway, I tend to find myself with the ball just out of the cage or partially out of the cage to the right. If I try to feel the seat of my pants, I can never really feel it. I can feel my lower back against the seat back and feel a little bit that way.

I don't know why I do this and haven't been able to find a good way to correct it beyond just paying lots of attention to the ball.

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but do you have any tricks like you had for me when you told me to waggle the rudder pedals on final several years ago? If you do, maybe they would be useful for the OP to hear as well.
 
Dont keep your wallet in your back pocket. Step on the butt cheek that feels heavier!

MBDiagMan said:
Don, sometimes I think there's something wrong with the seat of my pants. Maybe I've been on the hot seat too much of my life.

Anyway, I tend to find myself with the ball just out of the cage or partially out of the cage to the right. If I try to feel the seat of my pants, I can never really feel it. I can feel my lower back against the seat back and feel a little bit that way.

I don't know why I do this and haven't been able to find a good way to correct it beyond just paying lots of attention to the ball.

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but do you have any tricks like you had for me when you told me to waggle the rudder pedals on final several years ago? If you do, maybe they would be useful for the OP to hear as well.
Click to expand...
 
Doc, You develop a good sense very quickly if you fly a tandem airplane from the back seat and you don't have a ball to look at. Sitting on the cg in a 140 doesn't give you much of a feel. Sitting way behind the cg in the N3N gives you lots of feedback. Come up to Idaho and we'll fly it a couple hours and tune you up.
Henning, one of my aerobatic instructors was a very straight laced Marine. It drove him nuts when i would take off my flip flops and stick them in the seat springs under the pilot seat in the Decathalon and fly barefoot. It had toe brakes. It's kinda tough to fly heel brakes with bare feet. Don
 
VanDy said:
Dont keep your wallet in your back pocket. Step on the butt cheek that feels heavier!
Click to expand...


You know what? You might be onto something. Sometimes I fly in camo cargo pants, where I put my wallet in the low leg pocket. I'm going to try that next time we get flying weather. Thanks!
 
yakdriver said:
Doc, You develop a good sense very quickly if you fly a tandem airplane from the back seat and you don't have a ball to look at. Sitting on the cg in a 140 doesn't give you much of a feel. Sitting way behind the cg in the N3N gives you lots of feedback. Come up to Idaho and we'll fly it a couple hours and tune you up.
Henning, one of my aerobatic instructors was a very straight laced Marine. It drove him nuts when i would take off my flip flops and stick them in the seat springs under the pilot seat in the Decathalon and fly barefoot. It had toe brakes. It's kinda tough to fly heel brakes with bare feet. Don
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Makes sense. I would love to spend a few hours in a J3 or a Champ. Thanks for the response.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Radio? GPS? The OP is learning to fly a J3 Cub. He don't need no stinking electronics.:)

My first 7 hours back in 1992 were in an Aeronca Champ with no radio. Flights I will never forget. $25 an hour for the plane and $15 an hour for the instructor IIRC.
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I know but there is a handheld radio and gps mounted in the front seat (see pictures) so obviously they are using them. I was just wondering if he was going to be able to solo in that airplane because it doesn't appear to be set up for it.

My first hours were in 1969 in a J3 with no radio. Eight bucks an hour for the airplane and four for the instructor. I was earning a buck fifty for each lawn I mowed so it wasn't any easier.
 
yakdriver said:
Doc, You develop a good sense very quickly if you fly a tandem airplane from the back seat and you don't have a ball to look at. Sitting on the cg in a 140 doesn't give you much of a feel. Sitting way behind the cg in the N3N gives you lots of feedback...
Click to expand...

True, pitch changes from the back seat of a J3 are very evident visually. Slips and skids are also quite easily felt, this is where the "flying by the seat of your pants" thing comes from. You don't really feel much of that when you are sitting right at the center of the rotational point.
 
Silvaire said:
I'll ask again: are going to be soloing in this Cub? Because if you are you're going to have a heck of a time reaching the radio and gps from the back seat. :dunno:
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Using a GPS in this kind of plane is pure sacrilege, just use a paper sectional and your finger, nothing else is needed. Fly the plane like it's 1946, VFR and your eyes outside, no knob turning and looking at electronic screens.

This is real flying at it's purest form.
 
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champ driver said:
Using a GPS in this kind of plane is pure sacrilege, just use a paper sectional and your finger, nothing else is needed. Fly the plane like it's 1946, VFR and your eyes outside, no knob turning and looking at electronic screens.

This is real flying at it's purest form.
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And you haven't flown in Southern California airspace. A GPS is almost mandatory if you are VFR and want to navigate between all the Class B,C,D airspace that often overlaps. Don
 
OK, I'll give you that in SOCAL or the New York east coast area. But in the rest of the country, throw the GPS out the door and fly like it like it was meant to be flown.
 
yakdriver said:
And you haven't flown in Southern California airspace. A GPS is almost mandatory if you are VFR and want to navigate between all the Class B,C,D airspace that often overlaps. Don
Click to expand...

Having learned out of LGB in days before GPS, I will say this is untrue, it's not even that difficult to fly all over the basin and only talk to departure and arrival towers. Not to say I believe it's wrong to have a GPS in a J-3, but there is no airspace so complex it can't be navigated simply by a student pilot using nothing but pilotage.
 
My next training flight in our clubs Champ is Monday. Looking forward to it.

After reading some of the posts here and other places, I might get my instructor to just let me taxi around the airport for a while.

Last flight taxiing did not go too well and he had to take over. In fact, he did just about everything except for when we were in the air.
 
champ driver said:
Using a GPS in this kind of plane is pure sacrilege, just use a paper sectional and your finger, nothing else is needed. Fly the plane like it's 1946, VFR and your eyes outside, no knob turning and looking at electronic screens.

This is real flying at it's purest form.
Click to expand...

Again, I only asked because there is a handheld radio and gps in the pictures so obviously they are using them whether anyone thinks they ought to or not but they are mounted in the front seat which led me to ask if this particular J3 was available for solo rent. Because some of them are not.

I've got a '46 Luscombe 8E and a '58 Champ 7EC and both of them have radios and a GPS and I can unequivocally testify that neither piece of equipment detracts from the fun of flying them in the least bit. Nor does having an electrical system or starter make me feel the least bit deficient or that I'm missing the real experience. :rolleyes:
 
Henning said:
Having learned out of LGB in days before GPS, I will say this is untrue, it's not even that difficult to fly all over the basin and only talk to departure and arrival towers. Not to say I believe it's wrong to have a GPS in a J-3, but there is no airspace so complex it can't be navigated simply by a student pilot using nothing but pilotage.
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But GPS sure makes it a lot easier for those that don't like to talk to anybody. I always have a sectional open but GPS is great in the N3N as it only has 2.5 hrs of fuel and it makes it easy to figure where to stop. It's a great tool but I don't rely on it 100% I can still get wherever I want to go with a map and a watch. Don
 
I've owned a Luscombe a and f , a champ 85 hp , a j3 cub , 3 taylorcrafts, a 140 cessna, a Stearman and a 7 eca over the years. With the exception of the Stearman, I found they all flew basically the same and if you flew one well you could fly any of them. I was taught to NEVER fast taxi for obvious reasons, although I did sometimes when I had hundreds of hours, usually to clear a runway in traffic. My least favorite was the cub, the two favorites were the Luscombe F and the Stearman. I never owned a super cub but flew one some and they are great fun. No comparison with the overrated J3.
 
Silvaire said:
[....]
I'll ask again: are going to be soloing in this Cub? Because if you are you're going to have a heck of a time reaching the radio and gps from the back seat. :dunno:
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Good question - sorry I missed it previously.

Yes, I will be soloing in this same J-3 Cub that I am now training in for the tailwheel.

For now, I have been flying it only from the back seat. Soon - instructor will decide when (he probably doesn't want too many variables changing while I'm still trying to "get the hang" of it) - I will be also be flying this J3 while seated in the front seat.

When seated in the back, I have to stretch a little to reach the dials and digits on the hand-held radio mounted on the left side-front. But it is no problem at all (in fact, I do it every time we fly - the instructor cannot hear well so I operate the radios).

When seated in the back, it becomes more difficult to reach
- the mixture control
- the primer
- the started

I joke with the instructor that I need long stick with a rubber-piece end so I can reach those easely from the back seat.

Carb heat is within easy reach, lower-right of front seat.

The mounted GPS I never use as it's impossible to reach from the back whiel seated with lap and shoulder belt harness on. However, when threading through layered airspaces or lateral boundaries, a GPS adds a great deal of info to the "situational awareness". I always launch Garmin Pilot on my phone before the flight starts and stick it in my shirt pocket, just in case. And next to me I have a folded chart as well. And that is about all I can squeeze in the back seat ha-ha. Training has thus far been in local areas, well known, so need for a GPS, but it is a nice thing to have "just in case" when flying from the local airport to, for example, the coastline or Catalina island.

Mounted laterally on the upper left and upper right panel (not shown in the any of the photos), are controls that can be easily reached from the back seat: magnetos, beacon, alternator, auxiliary fuel tank, etc. It's 'prolly becoming obvious that this J3 has been through the "pimp my ride" work - and it makes sense from a rental point of view. I don't know much about this stuff, but imagine the liability of having many renters have to hand-prop the plane on every start. Probably safer to have an electric start. (We did have to hand-prop once, unfortunately I didn't get to do it - but it's a lesson the instructor and I will surely do).

I'll also know if the plane can be soloed from the from seat or not (I think the instructor mentioned that it can). Can't say what it's like to fly it from the front seat, but I really like the "feel" when flying from the back. Complements the turn coordinator well (although I still don't have that "feel" yet).
 
MBDiagMan said:
I could say that someday, you'll never know why you worried about those rudder pedals after you get to the point of handling them well, but that would be BAD advice. Don't ever lose focus of the rudder pedals while on the ground or it will get away from you. I've come close to it getting away from me, but it hasn't happened....... yet.

Now, I'm going to have to get a nose wheel endorsement since I'm about to start doing some of my flying in a 172.
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Yes, good advice. Especially true after touchdown on landing. One thing that's becoming obvious to me is that - and it shouldn't be a novelty - the more work I put in the approach, the easier it is to keep the Cub in the right orientation after touchdown. If i ever touch down with a slight lateral drift (even if I manage to point the plane parallel with the centerline), i put myself in a handicap. Same thing happens if I control the drift and I'm smack on centerline, but i've rotated the plane about the Y-axis, I put myself in a handicap again.

(*I think*)
 
Henning said:
Nothing wrong with flying barefoot...
http://youtu.be/__ZNDLyx-IY
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Funny, in the first lesson I was frustrated 1/2 through the lesson and really thought about taking my shoes off. Part of the reason i didn't do that is because I had no safe place to put them.

(I have a pair of these funny-looking Italian soccer shoes called "Pantofola D'oro". They really are "golden" in the Cub!).
 
RalphInCA said:
My next training flight in our clubs Champ is Monday. Looking forward to it.

After reading some of the posts here and other places, I might get my instructor to just let me taxi around the airport for a while.

Last flight taxiing did not go too well and he had to take over. In fact, he did just about everything except for when we were in the air.
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I can't give you any sound "technical" advice other than it does and will get better with practice. Do speak to your instructor and tell him that to make the most of every lesson, especially in the early stages, you want to control the plane. Do it a slow speed to give the instructor sufficient time to intervene when needed. A Champ would really be nice to fly ... Great that you have access to one.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I've owned a Luscombe a and f , a champ 85 hp , a j3 cub , 3 taylorcrafts, a 140 cessna, a Stearman and a 7 eca over the years. With the exception of the Stearman, I found they all flew basically the same and if you flew one well you could fly any of them. I was taught to NEVER fast taxi for obvious reasons, although I did sometimes when I had hundreds of hours, usually to clear a runway in traffic. My least favorite was the cub, the two favorites were the Luscombe F and the Stearman. I never owned a super cub but flew one some and they are great fun. No comparison with the overrated J3.
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Oh yeahh? But the J3 IS Da Cutest, like... okay?!

Just kidding. Have you ever flown or know about the J3 Cub that have had the span of the wings trimmed? I have seen one at the local airport (couldn't pay too much attention as i was taxing the training Cub), and it looked really nice - in the sense that the reduced wingspan would likely make it more response to roll? And maybe less like a kite in "higher" winds?

Edit: in your opinion, what did you think the Luscombe did better than the J3? And what did you like the least about the J3? I'm curious.
 
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yakdriver said:
But GPS sure makes it a lot easier for those that don't like to talk to anybody. I always have a sectional open but GPS is great in the N3N as it only has 2.5 hrs of fuel and it makes it easy to figure where to stop. It's a great tool but I don't rely on it 100% I can still get wherever I want to go with a map and a watch. Don
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I will not deny the benefits and advantages, just pointing out that as for necessary just because airspace is complex, it's not really true. Moving map GPS technology definitely makes situational awareness more exact and easier. The key advantage to the magenta line is fuel savings.
 
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iWantWings said:
Just kidding. Have you ever flown or know about the J3 Cub that have had the span of the wings trimmed? I have seen one at the local airport (couldn't pay too much attention as i was taxing the training Cub), and it looked really nice - in the sense that the reduced wingspan would likely make it more response to roll? And maybe less like a kite in "higher" winds.
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Clipped Cubs are lots of fun, flown solo. I have a good bit of time in one. The wingspan is 81" shorter than standard, which does a few things - speeds up the roll rate a little, makes for a stronger, more rigid wing/strut arrangement, and produces higher wing loading. The roll rate is still pretty lethargic, though. They cruise no faster than a long wing J-3, but climb rate is reduced, and takeoff/landing distances are a little longer. But in no wind, it's still not too hard to get it stopped in under 400' from the runway threshold. The higher loading allows for steeper approaches. They stall about 4 mph faster than a standard Cub, all other things being equal. Some video I shot in the one I flew for a while. This one was a '41 J-3 with Reed conversion, 85 hp, and a left side door mod.

 
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