Stadium TFR

[Kevin87]

I saw someone post about stadium TFRs being shown on foreflight and it reminded me about a question I had.

Every time I go to a baseball game I know there is an active TFR, but I always see GA aircraft flying clearly in the TFR. Is it just because they are not enforced? Anyone have anymore info on these TFRs?

 

[ARFlyer]

I saw someone post about stadium TFRs being shown on foreflight and it reminded me about a question I had.

Every time I go to a baseball game I know there is an active TFR, but I always see GA aircraft flying clearly in the TFR. Is it just because they are not enforced? Anyone have anymore info on these TFRs?

I going to email the FAA this afternoon when I have time to sit down and cite the TFR. I'll post my findings. It might be a few days

 

[MAKG1]

I saw someone post about stadium TFRs being shown on foreflight and it reminded me about a question I had.

Every time I go to a baseball game I know there is an active TFR, but I always see GA aircraft flying clearly in the TFR. Is it just because they are not enforced? Anyone have anymore info on these TFRs?

Read the TFR text.

It excepts aircraft under the control of ATC, among a lot of other things.

If that weren't the case, Oakland International would have to close every time the A's played.

 

[Kevin87]

Interesting. The last one I read said that atc contact was a requirement, but still did not exclude the aircraft from the TFR. I will have to read the next one more closely.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Interesting. The last one I read said that atc contact was a requirement, but still did not exclude the aircraft from the TFR. I will have to read the next one more closely.

What "last one"? The current one has been in effect since 2009.

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_9_5151.html
THE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY AND IN CONTACT WITH ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY OF FLIGHT PURPOSES,

The part that really cracks me up:

INFORMATION ABOUT WAIVER APPLICATIONS AND TSA SECURITY AUTHORIZATIONS CAN BE FOUND AT HTTP://WWW.TSA.GOV/WHAT_WE_DO/TSNM/GENERAL_AVIATION/AIRSPACE_WAIVERS.SHTM (CASE SENSITIVE USE LOWER CASE ONLY)

 

[CT4ME]

I can't believe we're responsible for stadium TFRs, but the FAA doesn't publish them. They must have a list somewhere, or they wouldn't know when one was busted. The only accurate source for stadium TFRs, that I know of, is SkyVector.com.

 

[timwinters]

I can't believe we're responsible for stadium TFRs, but the FAA doesn't publish them. They must have a list somewhere, or they wouldn't know when one was busted. The only accurate source for stadium TFRs, that I know of, is SkyVector.com.

I'm personally aware of only one FAA action of a bust of a stadium TFR and that's because the FAA guy was sitting in the stands and the plane flew over close enough that he could read, and write down, the tail number.

Busted.

But really? Who really cares about stadium TFRs? They're stupid sure and we established long ago that their main purpose is to protect jumbo-tron revenues but:

• They're small and easily flown around whether active or not.
• They're low and easily flown over whether active or not.
• Almost all are in big cities so you'll already be talking to Charlie or Bravo anyway. That makes them a non issue.
• Stadiums are typically nowhere near airports (Talladega being a notable exception)
• Did I mention they're small?

There may be a few that would inconvenience pilots but I honestly can't think of any. Just go around them 24/7 and don't worry about whether they're "hot" or not.

Just another thing for pilots to b*tch about.

 

[CT4ME]

It is a pain. It just happens that most flying is done around big cities, and big cities have stadiums. And many airports. And more complex airspace.

I'm no sports guy, but Phoenix has (I think) Five potential stadiums that may be affected by TFRs. And, because of the class Bravo over the city, height is an issue because we're often flying under it.

I'm sure this is an issue in other cities as well. It sure would be nice if they showed up on FF, WingX, GPilot (or even the FAA website!)

 

[catmandu]

Stadium TFR's are a marketing grab by stadium / team owners and have very little to do with security.

 

[JoeSelch]

Certainly an issue in Detroit with Tigers and Lions venues near Bravo, Delta and Canadian airspace ... Not much in the way of good options to go around or over, and ATC service is not always available to us VFR pilots.

 

[timwinters]

It is a pain. It just happens that most flying is done around big cities, and big cities have stadiums. And many airports. And more complex airspace.

I'm no sports guy, but Phoenix has (I think) Five potential stadiums that may be affected by TFRs. And, because of the class Bravo over the city, height is an issue because we're often flying under it.

I'm sure this is an issue in other cities as well. It sure would be nice if they showed up on FF, WingX, GPilot (or even the FAA website!)

Is it that hard to talk to ATC? The way I read the NOTAM, that's all that's required. (But I could be wrong, I'm sure Ron will let us know.)

I've done the riverfront tour in STL when a ball game has been going on at Busch Stadium, talked to both STL APPR and CPS tower. Flew up the river through the TFR. Nobody said nuttin'.

Easy peasy.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Stadium TFR's are a marketing grab by stadium / team owners and have very little to do with security.

As someone who flew in these TFR's regularly, with waivers, the only league that applies to is the NFL.

 

[clear_prop]

ATC is funny about the stadium TFRs.

On a recent Bay Tour, Norcal had me stay clear of the TFR over AT&T Park (SF Giants) and then had me do the Oakland Coliseum (Oakland A's) transition over OAK. Right over the stadium at 2000ft during a game. No consistency at all.

 

[roncachamp]

But really? Who really cares about stadium TFRs? They're stupid sure and we established long ago that their main purpose is to protect jumbo-tron revenues but:

They're small and easily flown around whether active or not.
They're low and easily flown over whether active or not.
Almost all are in big cities so you'll already be talking to Charlie or Bravo anyway. That makes them a non issue.

That's true for professional sports, but NCAA Division 1 football is played in some rather small cities, some without even Class D airspace.

Stadiums are typically nowhere near airports (Talladega being a notable exception)

Lambeau Field, home of the NFL's flagship franchise, is 2.4 miles from KGRB.

 

[DJTorrente]

ATC is funny about the stadium TFRs.

On a recent Bay Tour, Norcal had me stay clear of the TFR over AT&T Park (SF Giants) and then had me do the Oakland Coliseum (Oakland A's) transition over OAK. Right over the stadium at 2000ft during a game. No consistency at all.

Prefectly consistent actually. ATC knows precisely the value of TFRs and kabuki security theater. If its for your convenience; don't count on it. If its for theirs, its no problem. In the case of presidential VIP TFRs, secret service makes deviations like you got over Oakland stadium more inconveninent for them -- but the same principle still applies.

 

[dukeblue219]

Stadiums are typically nowhere near airports (Talladega being a notable exception)

I suspect you're forgetting the most common stadium near an airport, which is likely a D1 football stadium. They're not always (I'd say they're rarely) centered in major cities, so it's quite common to find a small airport in the vicinity.

Williams-Brice Stadium in Columbia, SC holds 88,000 people and sits within about a mile of KCUB, the primary GA airport in the city. At least you can see the stadium coming from a long way away, but I can imagine folks coming in VFR not talking to Columbia Approach on a Saturday morning with no idea the game is starting at noon.

Kyle Field at Texas A&M is another I can think of...

 

[timwinters]

I suspect you're forgetting the most common stadium near an airport, which is likely a D1 football stadium. <snip>
Williams-Brice Stadium in Columbia, SC holds 88,000 people and sits within about a mile of KCUB..

You're absolutely right I did.

In this particular case though, CUB is inside of Columbia's class Charlie ring so as long as your talking to approach there is no issue.

But this brings up a glitch that I think I just found on ForeFlight. I'll discuss it over in this thread.

 

[jcepiano]

TFR's don't necessarily exclude aircraft from entering the specified area. They require pilots to contact ATC for authorization to enter.

For example - the Disney Land TFR near John Wayne Airport is permanently situated but as long as you're talking to Socal Approach, they rarely prevent people from entering.

Also, when the POTUS is traveling, they put tons of TFR's in place. In this scenario, most airspace below the TFR is converted to Class C or higher - requiring Class D airports to issue squawk codes and general VFR flight plans to a VOR or Airport in the area for any aircraft before departing.

You should receive a TFR notice anytime you get a flight briefing.

 

[roncachamp]

Also, when the POTUS is traveling, they put tons of TFR's in place. In this scenario, most airspace below the TFR is converted to Class C or higher - requiring Class D airports to issue squawk codes and general VFR flight plans to a VOR or Airport in the area for any aircraft before departing.

No, TFRs do not affect controlled airspace classes in any way.

 

[jcepiano]

No, TFRs do not affect controlled airspace classes in any way.

Forgive my words, what I meant is that the procedures mimic other airspace. Since you usually need to be identified with a unique squawk code and radar service.

 

[timwinters]

Forgive my words, what I meant is that the procedures mimic other airspace. Since you usually need to be identified with a unique squawk code and radar service.

We knew what you meant. But when I read your post I knew that either Steven or Ron would feel compelled to correct you. They just can't help themselves.

 

[roncachamp]

We knew what you meant. But when I read your post I knew that either Steven or Ron would feel compelled to correct you. They just can't help themselves.

Who are "we"?

 

[Pilawt]

The TFR for games at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles would be a difficult one without talking to ATC. The top of the TFR is higher than the floor of the Class B shelf above. Going around it to the south puts you in Class B (unless you can thread a half-mile-wide gap); while to the north gives you a two-mile-wide gap but squeezes you vertically between the Hollywood Hills and the floor of BUR Class C.

 

[happypilot876]

Good news! ForeFlight's Stadium TFR display has just been updated to reflect actual sports schedules.

So we now see yellow Stadium TFRs for games/races more than 24 hours in the future, and red Stadium TFRs for games/races within 24 hours.

Tap the TFR entry to see schedule details.

http://blog.foreflight.com/2014/06/12/stadium-tfrs/

 

[ARFlyer]

I also got an email back from my FAA contact. I'm posting a cliff notes version as I don't want to post their actual email.

In short it says: Due diligence to be aware of all TFRs. Please use reason when complying with 91.103.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Good news! ForeFlight's Stadium TFR display has just been updated to reflect actual sports schedules.

So we now see yellow Stadium TFRs for games/races more than 24 hours in the future, and red Stadium TFRs for games/races within 24 hours.

Tap the TFR entry to see schedule details.

http://blog.foreflight.com/2014/06/12/stadium-tfrs/

Glad you like. We were following the thread here and hustling in the background to make our Stadium TFRs smarter. We'll keep refining. Drop us a note on twitter, Facebook, or team@foreflight.com and we'll tune this as needed.

I wish TFRs were eliminated altogether ... they're pretty dumb and even the FAA can't keep track, yet they still pull tickets ... will keep working that agenda through other channels

FAA even hid a bug that was not broadcasting TFR geometries via ADS-B, still held pilots accountable for busts even though their systems were bugged.

-tyson

co-founder / ceo / foreflight

 

[flyingron]

Martinsville Speedway sits about halfway between MTV and SIF, two uncontrolled fields.

The end of the runway at UNV is a half mile from Beaver Stadium (Penn State). It only recently now has a class D.

Lowe's Motor Speedway is less than two miles from the Concord Regional Airport (class D)

MPO (uncontrolled) is less than four miles from Pocono Speedway.

West Virgina's stadium is less than a mile from the MGW airport.
Tuscaloosa is within a mile of 'bama's Bryant stadium

It goes on from there..