SSRIs and deferral timeline?

RussS

RussS

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rshermer
So I've read a lot of posts on here about the issues surrounding SSRIs and medical deferrals and have a timeline question. I went to my AME for a second class medical on December 9th (starting flight school next week) and shame on me for not doing more research on FAA medicals! Things I wish my flight school would have told me! I was on Sertraline (SSRI) and Buspar for a little less than 2 years due to a situational depression. The medicines had no adverse effects on me, so I just continued them. Needless to say I was deferred. I immediately contacted my primary and discontinued the medications, but now understand I have to wait 60 days after discontinuing SSRIs before re-visiting him for the all-clear. My deferral as of 1/3/20 was still "being reviewed" at OKC. I would assume it will be denied because Buspar is a "no fly" medication? Am I better waiting for denial and re-applying, or wait the 60 days and submit new info to my AME or FAA at that time? At the current rate, I dont even know that I will get a response from the FAA on my initial deferral by then. I'm TRYING to make things as fast and painless as possible, which doesn't seem probable.
 
Yes, talk to Dr. Chien. He is the expert. He will likely get back to you soon. Sign up on his get started page.

From what I understand, whether this can ultimately be issued will likely depend on some details of the history.
 
Thank you everyone for your replies. I have reached out to Dr Chien for is advise. I have one more month to make 60 days discontinued and my primary is informed and ready to write whatever report is needed...after an exam of course. Lesson to everyone I guess...research FAA medical BEFORE visiting an AME.
 
RussS said:
Thank you everyone for your replies. I have reached out to Dr Chien for is advise. I have one more month to make 60 days discontinued and my primary is informed and ready to write whatever report is needed...after an exam of course. Lesson to everyone I guess...research FAA medical BEFORE visiting an AME.
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In addition to what you are already doing, you might have a conversation with the admissions person at your flight school to inform them of what is happening with your medical.

Since the first batch of flight hours before solo and any ground school do not require a flight medical, there shouldn't be any problems. However, it's no good for you if you were to withhold you're status from them, they somehow find out, and then the school gets all funky wunky about it and makes things difficult for you because they had some sort of policy that possessing a medical was a requirement from the very start.

Better for you to tell them up front, and they advise you on their position. Especially since your class date is coming up quick.

PS. What ever they tell you, ask for that person to confirm the information in a simple email. Since busy administrator's memories are volatile, you now have something that documents the conversation took place and the detail/decision provided by that administrator.

PPS. Also let us know what part of the country you haunt. Could be some other PoA folk haunt the same place and would be willing to meet up with you periodically.
 
Thank you Aggie and thank you Dr Bruce! What a mess. My flight school has been informed of my situation and while they say "part 141 regulations require FAA medical prior to starting training", I believe for private pilot courses, it is only needed prior to solo (per regulations).

I am in Eastern PA, about 30 miles north of Philadelphia. My training will be in the Allentown, PA area.

Dr Bruce, thank you again, and I have emailed you back.
 
mryan75 said:
Why on God's green earth would a 141 school send someone for a medical exam without at least a cursory discussion of common major problems which may arise?
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Same reason they'd sign them up and collect tuition in the same circumstance.
 
mryan75 said:
Why on God's green earth would a 141 school send someone for a medical exam without at least a cursory discussion of common major problems which may arise?
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It’s not limited to the 141 world unfortunately.

We have had the conversation many times about many entities, part 61 schools and independent CFI’s, toss the unknowing student under the medical certification bus without the discussion you mention.
 
I want to know the rule citation that they say is keeping RussS from crossing the 141's entry door.

All I could find was 141, Appendix B, 2 which reads.

2. Eligibility for enrollment. A person must hold either a recreational pilot certificate, sport pilot certificate, or student pilot certificate before enrolling in the solo flight phase of the private pilot certification course.
​
Note it says "solo flight phase" which makes total sense. But I am not finding anything that requires a medical to be part of any pre-solo 141 activity.

"School policy" might be something, but I don't see any FAR rule that backs that up.
 
I agree with all of you guys. What’s worse is this is coupled with a BS in aviation through a college. Neither the college or the flight school even mentioned having to get any kind of FAA medical when I signed up. Of course I know enough about aviation to know I needed one, unfortunately not enough to know of any potential problems a medication could have...shame on me for that. Had I done a consult prior to MedXpress I would not have a problem. I could have stopped all medication (as I have already done) and not listed them. Maybe that’s cheating the system, but honestly at this point, I think the system is cheating me.

I’m with you Aggie, I found NOTHING in any regulation that requires medical before starting training and I said the same to the flight school. I’ll find out more on their position tomorrow.

My biggest problem now, after talking with Dr Bruce (thank you) is I may just be screwed until I can jump through all the hoops of psych assessments and such...so training up until Solo won’t really make a difference because I will still be waiting for FAA clearance for god knows how long. I don’t know if the class of medical plays a part in FAA speed (I doubt it) but I had 2nd class medical.

I will certainly keep everyone posted as this unfolds.
 
You can absolutely start your flight training without a medical or a student pilot certificate. That’s what I was doing because I kept being told I would hear back from the faa “soon”. But it was a big mistake and I wouldn’t recommend doing it because the FaA could always come back and deny you a special issuance. It sucks how people like us were honest on our forms and it ended up biting us in the ass. While people who withhold that information have been able to fly and will probably never have any problems from the faa. Systems a joke. I’m sure dr chien has told you in the email, but your looking at costs as much as $5k-10k and will most likely be waiting a very long time.
 
RussS said:
I found NOTHING in any regulation that requires medical before starting training and I said the same to the flight school. I’ll find out more on their position tomorrow.
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Just be careful to not be too annoying when you ask the question. I've come across a few organizations in my professional life that once you start a small crusade to get the correct info, especially in very gray areas, you become the thorn in their paw and they no longer wish to deal with you.

So choose your words and attitude well so you don't step on the lighter switch that sets the bridge on fire.
 
Thanks Aggie. I am meeting with the flight school tomorrow. While I am SURE there are no regulations against starting, I think it will be best for me to push the flight training until at least the summer semester of my aviation degree. In the meantime, I can focus on other college credits needed for completion and get them out of the way. I will be working with Dr Bruce, who has be fantastic thus far, to get everything straightened out with OKC. I know it will be costly and I am really beating myself up for not researching prior to my AME appt, but in the long run it will be just a bump in the road.
 
One gotcha that many people miss is that you can't log cross-country time without the student pilot certificate. This was more of a problem in the days when your student pilot and medical certificates were one and the same. Now you get the student pilot certificate separate from the medical (actually, you always could but most people didn't).
 
flyingron said:
One gotcha that many people miss is that you can't log cross-country time without the student pilot certificate. This was more of a problem in the days when your student pilot and medical certificates were one and the same. Now you get the student pilot certificate separate from the medical (actually, you always could but most people didn't).
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I think that's just solo X/C time isn't it? I ran into that issue due to a paperwork mistake that ended up with me having to redo a solo X/C (and my wife calling me Sky Pirate for a bit). The FBO made it right for me but was embarrassed to find I didn't have a student license and applying for it was not on their checklist.
 
running about 8 months ... holidays always increase the backlog!
 
mryan75 said:
That's something I would not repeat. You can not fly solo without at least a student pilot certificate and a valid medical (or meeting the requirements of Basic Med).
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i think he meant that you can log cross country time if you fly with a Cfi, not solo
 
Pugs said:
I think that's just solo X/C time isn't it? I ran into that issue due to a paperwork mistake that ended up with me having to redo a solo X/C (and my wife calling me Sky Pirate for a bit). The FBO made it right for me but was embarrassed to find I didn't have a student license and applying for it was not on their checklist.
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No, you can't log any XC time without some pilot certificate (at least a student). The FAA changed this a while back I presume to stop flight instructors from providing transportation services and calling it flight instruction. You need a medical AND a pilot certificate to do solo XC. You need a pilot certificate to log dual XC.

Read the definition of Cross-country in 61.1.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Apparently you can. Just not legally it seems.:)
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But I didn't do it maliciously. :D In the end it was kind of funny and I suppose that here as a good as any place to fess up to it since it's a couple plus years in the past.

I started flying in 1984 and got all the way up to maybe one long X/C and brush up for the practical but really couldn't scrap together the money to finish even at $30/hour for a Traumahawk but I had about 45 hours (in a lot of .3 and .4 blocks!) Back then as was pointed out earlier, your class III was also your student license.

Started back and all that time from the century before still counted. (ironically my 2500+ hours as an Tac-Air NFO did not). I did piles of paperwork I didn't have to do before. Renters Insurance, local FAM area quiz, SFRA training, IACRA stuff for exams (since I had to redo the written) etc. according to the FBO checklist.

Do all my training and head off to the in-house DPE for the practical. We're going through the paperwork and he asks for my student license. I hand him my medical. Hilarity ensues. CFI embarrassed, FBO embarrassed, DPE embarrassed, calls made (by DPE) to FSDO to figure out what to do. Me. mystified at the big deal. Anyway, once they look at my time from 1984 (when I was legal) and look at my time now it turns out I needed on X/C and about 3 hours to be legal. They gave me a 172 gratis to get the needed checks and I did it then the check ride. The FBO updated their required paperwork checklist to include what (I suppose) should have been obvious so some good came out of it.

Wife thought it was hilarious and called me sky pirate until I got legal.
 
Pugs said:
But I didn't do it maliciously. :D In the end it was kind of funny and I suppose that here as a good as any place to fess up to it since it's a couple plus years in the past.

I started flying in 1984 and got all the way up to maybe one long X/C and brush up for the practical but really couldn't scrap together the money to finish even at $30/hour for a Traumahawk but I had about 45 hours (in a lot of .3 and .4 blocks!) Back then as was pointed out earlier, your class III was also your student license.

Started back and all that time from the century before still counted. (ironically my 2500+ hours as an Tac-Air NFO did not). I did piles of paperwork I didn't have to do before. Renters Insurance, local FAM area quiz, SFRA training, IACRA stuff for exams (since I had to redo the written) etc. according to the FBO checklist.

Do all my training and head off to the in-house DPE for the practical. We're going through the paperwork and he asks for my student license. I hand him my medical. Hilarity ensues. CFI embarrassed, FBO embarrassed, DPE embarrassed, calls made (by DPE) to FSDO to figure out what to do. Me. mystified at the big deal. Anyway, once they look at my time from 1984 (when I was legal) and look at my time now it turns out I needed on X/C and about 3 hours to be legal. They gave me a 172 gratis to get the needed checks and I did it then the check ride. The FBO updated their required paperwork checklist to include what (I suppose) should have been obvious so some good came out of it.

Wife thought it was hilarious and called me sky pirate until I got legal.
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I too have a similar story. Something about non compliance with an SFAR prior to solo. Whatever. In general the government has permission to lick my balls to clean up after they finish.

I fly safe, that gets me compliant with the majority of what’s written in regulation. I make a good faith effort to know and comply with the rest. Sometimes omissions occur. When I find them I make corrections to bring myself in compliance.

When a Chicken Little comes along blathering about how bad it all is I try to ignore them, generally.
 
Just a quick non-update update. I called OKC again today, still under review (for initial AME deferral)..we're a month in so far, but they say "should be soon..HA. I have read SOOO many nightmare stories on here about deferrals and how long they take, and how much less time they COULD have taken had they utilized the resources and knowledge of this forum. While I am still ****ED at myself for not researching earlier, I do have comfort in knowing what I know now from all of you guys on here. I am also SOOOO grateful that I found Dr Bruce early in this process. I have only just begun to work with him (he hasnt even seen my files yet) but I would have never found someone like Dr Bruce had i just sat back and waited for the FAA to tell me what I needed and how to properly get it. I know its a long frustrating road regardless, but I really feel like I have a ton of people on my side with the POA community and Dr Bruce. So thank you to everyone on here for sharing your stories and your knowledge. Feeling alone with no direction sucks, and at least I dont have that anymore.
 
.....trust me, when that day comes and u hear the magic words “issued”

u r going to be soooooo happy.

Dr. Bruce is your guy, he is certainly blessed with a talent that has helped over 15,000 airmen get or stay n the air.
Just do EXACTLY as he directs u to do.
Good luck with your dream
 
PiperW said:
.....trust me, when that day comes and u hear the magic words “issued”

u r going to be soooooo happy.

Dr. Bruce is your guy, he is certainly blessed with a talent that has helped over 15,000 airmen get or stay n the air.
Just do EXACTLY as he directs u to do.
Good luck with your dream
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Piper, your posts were actually a lot of the valuable info I have gotten from here. Congrats on finally getting your cert! I looked back to see if I could find your original story but couldnt. I would love to read more about it. Is it on here?
 
RussS said:
... While I am still ****ED at myself for not researching earlier, I do have comfort in knowing what I know now from all of you guys on here...
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Not sure why you are ****ED you were on an SSRI you needed to get that straightened out regardless. Simply going off and not telling the FAA could have been a poor choice in the long run. I guess you could have chosen not to get a medical and stuck to sport pilot.

I work in higher education and they give that stuff out like candy on Halloween these days. If you think there is a pilot shortage now just wait a few years it is only going to get worse when they can't find anyone who can pass a medical because they were put on an SSRI. Not downplaying the need for these drugs in some case but I can also say that I know people on these drugs that I would fly with on or off their medication. It's not always simple but the FAA paints with a broad brush in the "interest of safety."

Good luck!
 
DFH65 said:
Not sure why you are ****ED you were on an SSRI you needed to get that straightened out regardless. Simply going off and not telling the FAA could have been a poor choice in the long run. I guess you could have chosen not to get a medical and stuck to sport pilot.

I work in higher education and they give that stuff out like candy on Halloween these days. If you think there is a pilot shortage now just wait a few years it is only going to get worse when they can't find anyone who can pass a medical because they were put on an SSRI. Not downplaying the need for these drugs in some case but I can also say that I know people on these drugs that I would fly with on or off their medication. It's not always simple but the FAA paints with a broad brush in the "interest of safety."

Good luck!
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I guess it’s more of a system thing. I don’t disagree that we definitely don’t want unstable people flying the friendly skies...especially in a commercial capacity. So, in that regard, I agree that the FAA needs to be very careful. What I don’t agree with is the system in which they use to “weed out” such people. Like you said, medications are thrown around like candy, and me being “the good patient”, just takes whatever a professional deems fit...needed or not. I am not a doctor, I don’t know what is needed, or overkill based on a diagnosis...or lack of for that matter. I can only speak in my case, but I suspect it is similar for many, many people. IF they defer and request more records to establish a pattern, or clinical deficiency, and then base a response on that, I would be fine with it. However, the guidelines in which are followed make me and many others unfit, until proven otherwise....and their requirements to establish that are extreme, in my opinion. You’re either approved by an AME or running the gauntlet of specifically qualified doctors, at great time, and expense. There is no in between. Let’s be honest...you will never weed out all of the bad ones...some will get through. It’s, the honest ones, up front, who are “punished”. The really crazy ones simply lie on their MedXpress and are issued and flying. An “incident” that may get them caught is of no consequence to them, because it is likely to be one catastrophic incident. I just think that in a time of “take this, it will make you feel better, there should be a wider scale of deferment....and I just don’t see it.
 
DFH65 said:
Not sure why you are ****ED you were on an SSRI you needed to get that straightened out regardless. Simply going off and not telling the FAA could have been a poor choice in the long run. I guess you could have chosen not to get a medical and stuck to sport pilot.

I work in higher education and they give that stuff out like candy on Halloween these days. If you think there is a pilot shortage now just wait a few years it is only going to get worse when they can't find anyone who can pass a medical because they were put on an SSRI. Not downplaying the need for these drugs in some case but I can also say that I know people on these drugs that I would fly with on or off their medication. It's not always simple but the FAA paints with a broad brush in the "interest of safety."

Good luck!
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This is indeed a growing problem and one I argued about quite a bit about 6 months ago:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...ric-illness-reform.118692/page-2#post-2751677

The FAA medical process should move towards a policy of monitoring and compliance and away from one of disqualification. The compliance policy seems to be working well for issues involving FAR violations, I think it'd not only continue to work well for medical issues but it'd also result in a better rate of reporting and treatment among pilots.
 
Personally I would love to see the FAA get out of the health business altogether. What are the real risks? Especially in a commercial two pilot scenario. I realize they are not zero but I am guessing the number of events they prevent are tiny for the burden they impose. Realize that will never happen but hope to see more reform in the future.
 
DFH65 said:
What are the real risks? Especially in a commercial two pilot scenario
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Ummmmm.... you do remember the GermanWings incident? That was a professional commercial two pilot crew setup.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Ummmmm.... you do remember the GermanWings incident? That was a professional commercial two pilot crew setup.
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yes, because the Europeans were behind the times when they decided that it was ok for one Person to be in the cockpit. Most countries including the us require 2 crew members in the cockpit at all times.
 
DFH65 said:
Personally I would love to see the FAA get out of the health business altogether. What are the real risks? Especially in a commercial two pilot scenario. I realize they are not zero but I am guessing the number of events they prevent are tiny for the burden they impose. Realize that will never happen but hope to see more reform in the future.
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Good idea particularly for the 3rd class medical since there is no good evidence that having a requirement for a 3rd class medical actually improves the safety of flight. Some weak arguments by the FAA but nothing substantial and some reasonable evidence that there is no improvement.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Ummmmm.... you do remember the GermanWings incident? That was a professional commercial two pilot crew setup.
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I value freedom more than safety but I am just kooky like that.

More importantly the system is set up to create these types of issues. The guys mental illness was probably untreated because he knew he would lose his livelihood if he admitted to it. Many mentally ill people are very good at faking it when they need to.

Let's face it there are no guarantees in life. Hec, you could be shot out of the air by a missile. I never get on an airliner thinking man I hope a terrorist isn't on the plane or oh boy I hope the pilot isn't suicidal. Reality is you have a better chance of winning the lottery than you do being killed in a plane with a suicidal pilot by a significant number of decimal points.
 
DFH65 said:
Personally I would love to see the FAA get out of the health business altogether. What are the real risks? Especially in a commercial two pilot scenario. I realize they are not zero but I am guessing the number of events they prevent are tiny for the burden they impose. Realize that will never happen but hope to see more reform in the future.
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There are enough people in the world who will never voluntarily visit a doctor that I assume some of them are pilots. For this reason, I would agree with the FAA having some sort of "medical requirement" but it could be as simple as "see your doctor regularly" as it would be better covered by regular on-going care with a primary care physician who knows the patient's history and is better positioned to spot changes in health status than an AME doing spot checks.

Perhaps the best example I can give would be cancer. Cancer is increasingly treatable if caught early, the problem is that the early stages of cancer are often chalked up to working too much or injury or other illness. As a result, people generally dont seek medical care for their early symptoms which allows the cancer to establish a foothold and progress. With the exception of some skin cancers and short of an actual visible growth (which is generally a later stage anyway), I doubt an AME would spot cancer in a medical exam, even if the airmen was being 100% honest about how they're feeling and disclosing all symptoms (given the errors in human recollection, people are never 100% honest though that's not to say they are being intentionally dishonest). A PCP might however notice the change or might have seen the patient enough to recognize recurring or advancing symptoms.

Right now we have a system that almost actively discourages pilots from seeking medical care, especially for "minor" symptoms. After all the 8500 calls for "ANY" doctor visits for "ANY" reasons and some of those reasons could be grounding or at least warrant additional paperwork (and we all want to avoid paperwork) in and of themselves. A pilot visiting a doctor for fatigue might be experiencing an early stage cancer symptom or they might just be fatigued from flying red-eyes for the last month coupled with the stresses of every day life. They wont know for sure until they visit the doctor but they're unlikely to go, create additional work for them and possibly jeopardize their medical certificate and thereby their career over being tired if they think it due only to schedule. We need a system that encourages them to seek medical help, not discourages.

A system based on approval, monitoring, treatment and compliance would therefore be of greater benefit to the flying community than the existing system based on denial with or without treatment.
 
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mryan75 said:
You get to make that decision for yourself. You don't get to make that decision for other people, unbeknownst to them.
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I guess that is why I am not in charge. I can't help it other people don't see my brilliance (would you like a subscription to my newsletter?). :D I still stand by the fact that the odds are in your favor in an overwhelming way. So why lose sleep over the few outliers that you are never going to catch anyway?

apr911 said:
There are enough people in the world who will never voluntarily visit a doctor that I assume some of them are pilots. For this reason, I would agree with the FAA having some sort of "medical requirement" but it could be as simple as "see your doctor regularly" as it would be better covered by regular on-going care with a primary care physician who knows the patient's history and is better positioned to spot changes in health status than an AME doing spot checks...
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Agree, the system is set up to put people in a bad position. Disclose lose your livelihood or ignore and keep flying until you can't.

I think Basic Med was a step in the right direction (overly complicated for what it is) but at least you have people less afraid to go to a doctor and get treatment or at least ask the questions.
 
mryan75 said:
You get to make that decision for yourself. You don't get to make that decision for other people, unbeknownst to them.
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True, but what principles do you think should apply when making decisions about what aviation regulations to have in place to balance people’s desire for freedom and the rights of others to not be injured by falling aircraft?

That is the critical issue here.
 
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