Spot-landing contests in rented airplane

Toby

Toby

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Toby Speed
Do any of you participate in spot-landing or other flying contests in rented a/c? Is there usually any policy about that?
 
Our club did one a few years ago. They blocked one 172 and one Warrior for the contest, and everybody flew one of those planes. All of our aircraft are rented by the club to the members.

Should be no issue at all - nothing risky about a spot-landing contest flown properly.
 
I have, at KPCM. Plant city Fla.

There were no restrictions on doing it, but all the rentals belonged to PCM at the time. People were free to use their own or borrowed planes. We did flour bag drops and spot landing. It was a real hoot.
 
Toby said:
Do any of you participate in spot-landing or other flying contests in rented a/c? Is there usually any policy about that?
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Your question reminds me of a debate a friend of mine and I had one day over a beer. I offered up the opinion that one would not wish to try a "moonshine turn" in an American made vehicle lest it roll over. My friend, a graduation certificate holder from the Bondurant School of High Performance Driving school (Formula I racing school) replied, "Oh, nonsense--you can do one in any rental car."

With respect to your question? Oh, nonsense--you can do that in any rental airplane.
 
I guess my real question behind the question is this: I rent, not from the FBO, but from my former instructor. He has a clear set of guidelines and lets me fly anywhere I want. I can land on short runways, for example, but I can't land on grass. My passengers cannot be PIC. I don't know if he'd have any objection to my using his a/c in a spot landing contest. Maybe I'll just ask.
 
Toby said:
I guess my real question behind the question is this: I rent, not from the FBO, but from my former instructor. He has a clear set of guidelines and lets me fly anywhere I want. I can land on short runways, for example, but I can't land on grass. My passengers cannot be PIC. I don't know if he'd have any objection to my using his a/c in a spot landing contest. Maybe I'll just ask.
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What's the difference between that and doing an hour's worth of precision touch and goes?

Guess I don't see what the issue is.
 
Toby said:
Maybe I'll just ask.
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That's a good idea, particularly if you have a continuing relationship with this person. There are probably some insurance policies that would define it as a prohibited "contest" or "air show" and you wouldn't want to be on the SURPRISE! end of that one.
 
I have the same land on grass and passenger as PIC restrictions as you do, Toby, but we have used the rentals in flour drops and spot landings without an issue several times. In fact, one of the owners occasionally participates himself.

Jim G
 
"if flown properly" is pretty important, I saw a guy in a tripacer force it onto the spot in El Paso abt 6yrs ago, The prop almost touched and the gear flexed like nothing I've ever seen!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
"if flown properly" is pretty important, I saw a guy in a tripacer force it onto the spot in El Paso abt 6yrs ago, The prop almost touched and the gear flexed like nothing I've ever seen!
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I think it helps a lot if a safety savvy person sets up the rules for these adventures. Some people (pilots included) respond to a challenge by losing what little common sense they normally have. A contest like this can be lots of fun and completely safe, or it can be a potential disaster. It all depends on the attitude of those in charge.

Some suggestions to consider:

Make sure that someone is designated as the "safety officer" and they or an approved substitute is monitoring the contest at all times.

Have a CFI or at least a well experienced "safety pilot/airborne judge" ride along with each contestant to ensure compliance with the rules.

Typically the pilot is allowed to determine when to cut the power except that it must be done prior to turning base. Once power is cut, it cannot be increased (except for a quick blast to clear the engine).

If at any point during the approach the "safety pilot/flying judge" determines that the runway cannot be safely made, a go around is mandatory. Judges on the ground can grant another try if they feel that call was in error, but absolutely no aurguing on final about it!

Full flaps should be used (with the possible exception of 40 degree Cessnas). Once lowered flaps cannot be raised unless going around.

Establish the touchdown point well beyond the threshold so that it will be obvious to any pilot that he can't make the designated line long before he gets too low to make the real threshold.

Tricycles must touch mains only and hold the nose off for a specified distance. Taildraggers must land 3-point.

A pilot who touches down closer to the runway threshold than half the distance between the threshold and the "mark" is disqualified from further contests for the day.

If the pilots are first timers they get a Mulligan if they initiate a go around before touching down.
 
I'm good with all the rules except the on-board safety observer, which I think, based on 10 years of watching AYA spot landing contests, is unnecessary as long as there's a highly qualified instructor/observer on the ground with a radio and whose "go around" call is mandatory.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm good with all the rules except the on-board safety observer, which I think, based on 10 years of watching AYA spot landing contests, is unnecessary as long as there's a highly qualified instructor/observer on the ground with a radio and whose "go around" call is mandatory.
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Maybe that would be you, Ron? :yes:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Levy
I'm good with all the rules except the on-board safety observer, which I think, based on 10 years of watching AYA spot landing contests, is unnecessary as long as there's a highly qualified instructor/observer on the ground with a radio and whose "go around" call is mandatory.

Toby said:
Maybe that would be you, Ron? :yes:
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It is me, every year, at the AYA convention. Just for once, I'd like to participate. BTW, a well-run spot landing contest at a non-towered airport requires a "controller" to keep the pattern straight with all in pattern as well as any non-participating traffic, and that person REALLY has to know what s/he is doing, and recognize that s/he can only give advice, not control traffic. The AYA has a highly experienced "Air Boss" team for that, and those folks do it year after year, usually spending several years assisting before actually being the "Boss" during a contest. Also, a pilot briefing on rules and procedures is essential, with a firm "no brief, no fly" rule.
 
Well, it looks like I'll be staying on the ground, if we have a contest Saturday. The answer was no. :(

I'll cheer for you all!
 
Toby said:
Well, it looks like I'll be staying on the ground, if we have a contest Saturday. The answer was no. :(

I'll cheer for you all!
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Another reason to buy or partner in a plane Toby. :)
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm good with all the rules except the on-board safety observer, which I think, based on 10 years of watching AYA spot landing contests, is unnecessary as long as there's a highly qualified instructor/observer on the ground with a radio and whose "go around" call is mandatory.
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Works for me. What I posted were just suggestions to consider. I'm sure there are some other ones I didn't think of.
 
Ron Levy said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Levy
I'm good with all the rules except the on-board safety observer, which I think, based on 10 years of watching AYA spot landing contests, is unnecessary as long as there's a highly qualified instructor/observer on the ground with a radio and whose "go around" call is mandatory.


It is me, every year, at the AYA convention. Just for once, I'd like to participate. BTW, a well-run spot landing contest at a non-towered airport requires a "controller" to keep the pattern straight with all in pattern as well as any non-participating traffic, and that person REALLY has to know what s/he is doing, and recognize that s/he can only give advice, not control traffic. The AYA has a highly experienced "Air Boss" team for that, and those folks do it year after year, usually spending several years assisting before actually being the "Boss" during a contest. Also, a pilot briefing on rules and procedures is essential, with a firm "no brief, no fly" rule.
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Both of those sound like really good ideas. I'd add that some sort of "signoff" for the briefing might be in order as well, or you'll get someone insisting that they attended when they didn't.
 
Yeah, we always have a signup sheet for the event, and then a roll-call before starting the briefing. If you don't respond, you don't fly. If your name isn't called, you call it out or you don't fly. Since there are enough witnesses and everyone in the AYA knows everyone else, there are no "But I was there and nobody called my name" or "Didn't you hear me?" whiners getting into the event."

BTW, the rules you came up with on a short-notice response are nearly identical to the ones the AYA came up with after years of thought.
 
BTW. I've been to the AYA spot landing contest and flour bombing. Didn't get to participate as after flying the 5.5 hours to the AYA annual meeting, my alternator decided to go T.U. so it was being replaced at the time. Both events are fun, efficient and safely run. The Grumman's sliding canopy allows good bombing technique. On a previous spot landing contest a friend of mine won by accidentally letting the flap switch spring forward in his Tiger, inadvertently retracting all the flaps on short final.

(yes the Tiger was back in service in time for the trip home thanks to Fletchair having one Tiger alternator at the event.)
 
Anthony: How do you do a flour bomb in a low wing? Throw it back over your shoulder to clear the wing?
 
AdamZ said:
Anthony: How do you do a flour bomb in a low wing? Throw it back over your shoulder to clear the wing?
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NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!:hairraise:

If you're lucky, that will only result in a big puff of smoke, a floured horizontal stab, and great mirth among the judges and spectators. If you're unlucky, it will hit the canopy bow and create WOXOF conditions in the cockpit followed by a major vacuuming exercise after landing.

What you SHOULD do is lean your shoulder out the window, holding your arm against the side of the plane, reaching back to the trailing edge of the wind, palm backward, with knuckles against the walkway, and then just open your hand and release it -- no tossing, no shoving, just let it go.
 
Ron Levy said:
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!:hairraise:

If you're lucky, that will only result in a big puff of smoke, a floured horizontal stab, and great mirth among the judges and spectators. If you're unlucky, it will hit the canopy bow and create WOXOF conditions in the cockpit followed by a major vacuuming exercise after landing.

What you SHOULD do is lean your shoulder out the window, holding your arm against the side of the plane, reaching back to the trailing edge of the wind, palm backward, with knuckles against the walkway, and then just open your hand and release it -- no tossing, no shoving, just let it go.
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How would ya do it in a Cherokee? Tie a piece of rope to it and let it hang out the small window?
 
N2212R said:
How would ya do it in a Cherokee?
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I wouldn't.

Tie a piece of rope to it and let it hang out the small window?
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I'm afraid that line needs to be rethought -- frankly, the idea of "[tying] a piece of rope to it and let[ting] it hang out the small window" makes me cringe.
 
N2212R said:
How would ya do it in a Cherokee? Tie a piece of rope to it and let it hang out the small window?
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Finally, a true advantage for high wing airplanes (and Grummans).
 
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