Sports pilot license and bipolar medicine

F

Fat harris

Guest
i have read on a number of articles that you can be a sports pilot even if you have a chronic condition that may preclude you from a tier 3 medical as long as your doctor says that it is adequately controlled so that it will not interfere with your ability to operate a light sport aircraft safely and you do not know of any condition that would prevent you from operating safely and are in otherwise good health. I have also read that you must adhere to all prescribed medications and treatments from your doctor.
if all that has been met and you have your doctors approval can you take bipolar medication? I only take it at night and he says Im not a danger when operating machinery. don’t worry I have it all in writing!
 
Bi-polar is scary because you won't necessarily realize when you shouldn't be flying. I would not recommend flying with it unless you put in place some precautions to prevent yourself from going up when you're not mentally capable of flying.
 
kmacht said:
Should not and can’t are two different things here. If going the sport pilot route and if you have a valid drivers license then it is up to you and your doctor to determine if you are safe to fly.
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Complying with 61.53(b) is not optional.
 
Lindberg said:
Complying with 61.53(b) is not optional.
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61.53b only says you can't operate an aircraft if you know you have a medical condition that would make it unsafe. That's determined between you and your doctor when flying under light sport. It isn't determined by a list of drugs that would require further evaluation if and only if you were applying for a medical. Thar is why 61.53 also has section A that is more explicit for licenses requiring a medical.
 
Lindberg said:
Complying with 61.53(b) is not optional.
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I'm not sure about that. Do you know of case law to support that assumption?

The link you posted is a guide for AMEs and refers to issuance of a medical certificate. Many of the meds that would cause an AME to defer an application will then be approved by the FAA after reviewing the applicant's supporting data. For sport pilot, that process is bypassed but an applicant may still have reason to know that he can operate safely.
 
kmacht said:
61.53b only says you can't operate an aircraft if you know you have a medical condition that would make it unsafe. That's determined between you and your doctor when flying under light sport. It isn't determined by a list of drugs that would require further evaluation if and only if you were applying for a medical. Thar is why 61.53 also has section A that is more explicit for licenses requiring a medical.
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Yes, there are more conditions that make one ineligible for a medical certificate than conditions that make one unsafe to fly. But when the FAA says that airmen should not fly while taking a certain medication, well, sport pilots are airmen.
 
dbahn said:
I'm not sure about that. Do you know of case law to support that assumption?
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The regulation seems pretty clear that compliance is mandatory.
The link you posted is a guide for AMEs and refers to issuance of a medical certificate. Many of the meds that would cause an AME to defer an application will then be approved by the FAA after reviewing the applicant's supporting data. For sport pilot, that process is bypassed but an applicant may still have reason to know that he can operate safely.
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Yes, there is a difference between conditions that make you ineligible for a medical and conditions that make you unsafe to operate an aircraft. Here, we're talking about the latter. If the FAA has said, "Airmen taking these medications cannot safely operate an aircraft," that includes sport pilots, glider pilots, balloon pilots.... They're all airmen.
 
Lindberg said:
The regulation seems pretty clear that compliance is mandatory.
Yes, there is a difference between conditions that make you ineligible for a medical and conditions that make you unsafe to operate an aircraft. Here, we're talking about the latter. If the FAA has said, "Airmen taking these medications cannot safely operate an aircraft," that includes sport pilots, glider pilots, balloon pilots.... They're all airmen.
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But the FAA has said that pilots who are being treated for certain medical disorders (including psychological) and taking certain psychoactive medications ARE safe to fly, but only after the FAA has had a chance to review their documentation. It's a different process with a different threshold and different level of oversight.

Look at the difference between 61.53 a and 61.53b. The standard for (a) is knowing that you meet the requirements for the medical certificate, but (b) only addresses the airman's knowledge that he is able to operate safely.
 
dbahn said:
But the FAA has said that pilots who are being treated for certain medical disorders (including psychological) and taking certain psychoactive medications ARE safe to fly, but only after the FAA has had a chance to review their documentation. It's a different process with a different threshold and different level of oversight.

Look at the difference between 61.53 a and 61.53b. The standard for (a) is knowing that you meet the requirements for the medical certificate, but (b) only addresses the airman's knowledge that he is able to operate safely.
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I'm not sure what the existence of SIs has to do with what I posted. The issuance of an SI for a condition is different from the question of whether it is safe to fly while taking certain medications to treat that condition. This is pretty unambiguous:

Do Not Fly. Airmen should not fly while using any of the medications in the Do Not Issue section above or while using any of the medications or classes/groups of medications listed below without an acceptable wait time after the last dose. All of these medications may cause sedation (drowsiness) and impair cognitive function, seriously degrading pilot performance. This impairment can occur even when the individual feels alert and is apparently functioning normally - in other words, the airman can be "unaware of impair."

For aviation safety, airmen should not fly following the last dose of any of the medications below until a period of time has elapsed equal to:

  • 5-times the maximum pharmacologic half-life of the medication; or
  • 5-times the maximum hour dose interval if pharmacologic half-life information is not available. For example, there is a 30-hour wait time for a medication that is taken every 4 to 6 hours (5 times 6)


Label warnings. Airmen should not fly while using any medication, prescription or OTC, that carries a label precaution or warning that it may cause drowsiness or advises the user "be careful when driving a motor vehicle or operating machinery." This applies even if label states "until you know how the medication affects you" and even if the airman has used the medication before with no apparent adverse effect. Such medications can cause impairment even when the airman feels alert and unimpaired (see "unaware of impair" above).
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Lindberg said:
I'm not sure what the existence of SIs has to do with what I posted.
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It doesn't.

There is no SI for Light Sport, and the OP did not indicate that he had ever had an AME assisted medical in the past.
 
Ok good to know not what I was hoping for but my doctor says i was miss diagnosed as I have never had a manic episode and will be switching medications. If I switch to Prozac can I fly as a sports pilot or do I have to be completely off everything?
 
Fat harris said:
Ok good to know not what I was hoping for but my doctor says i was miss diagnosed as I have never had a manic episode and will be switching medications. If I switch to Prozac can I fly as a sports pilot or do I have to be completely off everything?
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The FAA does permit pilots to fly while using these SSRIs, so it's reasonable to conclude these are not considered to make you unsafe to fly:

Fluoxetine (Prozac)
Sertraline (Zoloft)
Citalopram (Celexa)
Escitalopram (Lexapro)
 
Fat harris said:
Ok good to know not what I was hoping for but my doctor says i was miss diagnosed as I have never had a manic episode and will be switching medications. If I switch to Prozac can I fly as a sports pilot or do I have to be completely off everything?
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Go read the regs yourself and see how you interpret them. As a sport pilot as long as you have never taken and failed a medical, you have a valid drivers license, and you and your doctor determine you are safe to fly you can. Everything else posted here are just people trying to interpret things that aren’t in the regs. The FAA believes that if you are safe enough medically to drive a car then you are safe enough to fly a LSA qualifying airplane.
 
kmacht said:
Go read the regs yourself and see how you interpret them. As a sport pilot as long as you have never taken and failed a medical, you have a valid drivers license, and you and your doctor determine you are safe to fly you can. Everything else posted here are just people trying to interpret things that aren’t in the regs. The FAA believes that if you are safe enough medically to drive a car then you are safe enough to fly a LSA qualifying airplane.
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Cool. So if I decide that I can safely fly while on heroin, it's legal as long as I'm a Sport Pilot.
 
Lindberg said:
Cool. So if I decide that I can safely fly while on heroin, it's legal as long as I'm a Sport Pilot.
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Sorry, no. You have to also comply with all of the regulations that apply to operation of a motor vehicle:

"Sport pilots are required to hold either a valid airman medical certificate or a current and valid U.S. driver's license. When using a current and valid U.S. driver's license to qualify, sport pilots must comply with each restriction and limitation on their U.S. driver's license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle."
 
dbahn said:
Sorry, no. You have to also comply with all of the regulations that apply to operation of a motor vehicle:

"Sport pilots are required to hold either a valid airman medical certificate or a current and valid U.S. driver's license. When using a current and valid U.S. driver's license to qualify, sport pilots must comply with each restriction and limitation on their U.S. driver's license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle."
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My driver's license has no restrictions or limitations on it. And I'm subject to no judicial or administrative orders. My license used to say, "Corrective lenses required," but that went away when I got LASIK. I'd be very interested to see anyone's license that says they can't use heroin.

And flying gliders doesn't even require me to have a driver's license. So I can definitely fly gliders on heroin, right?
 
Well ... in our experimental airplanes we are required to have a placard warning passengers that "this plane was built in a garage by a rank amateur."

Perhaps a sport pilot needs to placard his panel with ... "pilot not required to meet any real medical qualifications before flight so please ask for a parachute and confirm best glide speed before departure" ... :D
 
kmacht said:
Go read the regs yourself and see how you interpret them. As a sport pilot as long as you have never taken and failed a medical, you have a valid drivers license, and you and your doctor determine you are safe to fly you can. Everything else posted here are just people trying to interpret things that aren’t in the regs. The FAA believes that if you are safe enough medically to drive a car then you are safe enough to fly a LSA qualifying airplane.
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So your saying I can or cannot take bipolar medicine if my doctor says it’s safe to do so? I ask because he does say it’s safe. Does any one know what the current legislation says or where to find it? Also does congress write it or does a burocrat write it?
 
Fat harris said:
So your saying I can or cannot take bipolar medicine if my doctor says it’s safe to do so? I ask because he does say it’s safe. Does any one know what the current legislation says or where to find it? Also does congress write it or does a burocrat write it?
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The relevant reg is 61.23, paragraphs b and c.
 
Fat Harris, most of us posting here are not doctors, and you haven’t given us much to go on.
You mention “bipolar medication” but not which one or that it’s being used to treat bipolar disorder.
Then you say you’ve been “misdiagnosed” — I guess that explains the strange wording. So… you don’t have bipolar disorder, then? What is the medicine treating?

Understand, you are under no obligation to reveal to this lot, even anonymously, any of this private stuff, like what condition you actually suffer from, etc. However, also understand that mental health is not to be mixed with aviation in a “technically it’s legal, and I’m sure it’ll be fine!” kind of way. Make sure your doctor is taking this question seriously.

Many drugs — even those not treating mental health issues — have side effects on the mind, that the patient might not be aware of in the moment.
 
Lindberg said:
Yes, there are more conditions that make one ineligible for a medical certificate than conditions that make one unsafe to fly. But when the FAA says that airmen should not fly while taking a certain medication, well, sport pilots are airmen.
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where does the FAA say all airmen should not fly because of a certain medication? I need that information too!

I went searching and found they don’t even publish a Do Not Fly list of medications.
 
Lindberg said:
My driver's license has no restrictions or limitations on it. And I'm subject to no judicial or administrative orders. My license used to say, "Corrective lenses required," but that went away when I got LASIK. I'd be very interested to see anyone's license that says they can't use heroin.

And flying gliders doesn't even require me to have a driver's license. So I can definitely fly gliders on heroin, right?
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You have a serious misunderstanding of the regs because you choose to only read very specific section and ignore the others. Go read 14 CFR 91.17 and then come back here if you still have questions about heroin
 
bflynn said:
where does the FAA say all airmen should not fly because of a certain medication? I need that information too!

I went searching and found they don’t even publish a Do Not Fly list of medications.
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I linked to it in this thread.
 
kmacht said:
You have a serious misunderstanding of the regs because you choose to only read very specific section and ignore the others. Go read 14 CFR 91.17 and then come back here if you still have questions about heroin
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I'm not the one who claimed a sport pilot could legally fly while taking any drugs he durn well pleases. That was you and dbhan. The comment about heroin was sarcasm. Reductio ad absurdum. I figured that would be obvious. My mistake.
 
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Lindberg said:
I'm not the one who claimed a sport pilot could legally fly while taking any drugs he durn well pleases. That was you and dbhan. The comment about heroin was sarcasm. Reductio ad absurdum. I figured that would be obvious. My mistake.
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None of us claimed that a pilot could legally fly taking "any drug" he pleases. There are some psychotropic drugs that have been approved in certain cases by the FAA, which indicates that under those circumstances the FAA has determined that they do not prevent the airman from operating in a safe manner. At the Sport Pilot level, that determination does not have to involve an AME or the FAA but rather is left to the airman and his physician to decide.

I only asked in post # 8 if you knew of any case law to support your statement. I just assume that by taking it to the absurdity level your answer must have been "no".
 
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Lindberg said:
You asked for case law to support my statement that pilots are required to comply with regulations. Talk about absurd.
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No, I didn't. That would have been absurd if I had. Your link was NOT to a regulation. It was to a guide for AMEs in issuing medical certificates, which is completely different since AMEs do not issue medical certification for Sport Pilot.
 
Are there drugs that a State certified Physician would deem OK for someone to take and operate motor vehicle but would disqualify a pilot from flying had this been disclosed to an AME? I mean how are regular docs with no aviation background, sport pilots and pilots using BasicMed supposed to make the determination that a given condition or prescription (outside of something obvious) would be disqualifying specifically for flying?

As anal as the FAA tends to be on things medical, this whole process seems to be placing an inordinate burden on folks who have the least knowledge to self-identify issues for which they aren't qualified. I include myself in this group being that I fly under BasicMed.
 
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tsts4 said:
Are there drugs that a State certified Physician would deem OK for someone to take and operate motor vehicle but would disqualify a pilot from flying had this been disclosed to an AME? I mean how are regular docs with no aviation background, sport pilots and pilots using BasicMed supposed to make the determination that a given condition or prescription (outside of something obvious) would be disqualifying specfically for flying?
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I think that's the point, and I believe you are correct in making that connection. For Sport Pilot, the medical component in 61.53 (b) is tied to a valid driver's license, not an AME assisted medical certification as it is in 61.53 (a). Note also that any conditions that apply to the driver's license carry over to operations under Sport Pilot.

Basic Med is an in-between hybrid generated by the legislature, not the FAA, but it does include reference to prior AME issued medical certification as a requirement. With respect to gliders, I think the driver's license requirement is omitted since a student glider pilot can fly solo before even being old enough for a driver's license, and that situation is also covered in 61.301.
 
Lindberg said:
You asked for case law to support my statement that pilots are required to comply with regulations. Talk about absurd.
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dbahn said:
No, I didn't. That would have been absurd if I had.
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Screenshot_20221220-074441.png
 
bflynn said:
That is the Do No Issue list for AMEs and specific to FAA medicals. The standards for FAA medicals and SP are different. I asked where the one that applied to every airman is.
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Keep reading on the same page. I also quoted it in post 12.

bflynn said:
but it states should not fly, not must not. The consultation is with you and your doctor.
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If that's your argument, then ok, and I wish you the best of luck. But I don't think semantics is going to win the day if the FAA comes knocking for violations of 61.53, 91.13, and 91.17.
 
Lindberg said:
But I don't think semantics is going to win the day if the FAA comes knocking for violations of 61.53, 91.13, and 91.17.
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That's where case law comes in.

Nice big screenshot up above, but you CAN comply with 61.53 (b) without complying with 61.53 (a), unless there's case law that establishes that they have the identical requirements, which I have doubted. Do you know of case law that supports your assumption?
 
dbahn said:
That's where case law comes in.

Nice big screenshot up above, but you CAN comply with 61.53 (b) without complying with 61.53 (a), unless there's case law that establishes that they have the identical requirements, which I have doubted. Do you know of case law that supports your assumption?
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Q: how do you interpret the relevant portions of 91.17, particularly a(3), (d), and (e)?
 
dbahn said:
That's where case law comes in.

Nice big screenshot up above, but you CAN comply with 61.53 (b) without complying with 61.53 (a), unless there's case law that establishes that they have the identical requirements, which I have doubted. Do you know of case law that supports your assumption?
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You're arguing with a strawman. I've never said or assumed any such thing. I think you'll find posts from me in this forum saying that they're two different standards. That has nothing to do with my point here, about drugs.
 
Lindberg said:
…That has nothing to do with my point here, about drugs.
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What strikes me is the FAA separately refers to drugs, medications, and drug medications in the various parts of the CFR. I understand why it happens, but context is important.

Many think 91.17 deals only with illegal drugs. I think it’s a blank check from an impairment perspective, but could be wrong.
 
TCABM said:
Q: how do you interpret the relevant portions of 91.17, particularly a(3), (d), and (e)?
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The 91.17 a(3) is the relevant portion. Since the FAA has determined that certain drugs are approved for pilots operating under Class 3 or better medical certificates, those same drugs may in some cases be considered safe for operation under Sport Pilot certificate. It's not blanket permission by any means, but on a case by case basis there are situations where airmen can operate under Sport Pilot privileges while taking medications that are on the lists of medications posted earlier.
TCABM said:
Many think 91.17 deals only with illegal drugs. I think it’s a blank check from an impairment perspective, but could be wrong.
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I think you are right about that. There is a separate provision from DOT that deals with prohibited drugs that are part of the drug testing program (CFR 40.85). It includes illegal drugs as well as some prescription drugs.
 
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