Sport Pilot "one of the worst things to happen to GA"?

The thought of allowing competent pilots who have outlived their medicals access to the airspace system is not disagreeable in the least. Medical factors cause a very, very small percentage of accidents. However, a majority of aviation accidents could be prevented through training. The thought of having numerous new pilots with less training is sobering at best.
 
This is one reason I selected the Zodiac: simple construction with technology any A&P is familiar with, and parts supply from the USA, not elsewhere in the world.

I think there are some folks out there that have learned the hard way and wish they would have done what you did. Same goes for resale, a Zodiac is a well-known design with a long history, should be at the top of the list for residual value, although some of the Cub clones would probably hold their value pretty well, too.

With credit markets tightening up, I would think lenders would be looking at the aircraft history in the underwriting process, too.


Trapper John
 
The GA safety record has steadily "improved" due to the reduction of the number of GA total hours flown. This has helped dampen the ardor of those who would "protect us."

But it can change on a whim, and we in GA need to police ourselves, or we'll deserve what we get.

The GA safety record is normalized to accidents per 100,000 hours in both NTSB and Nall data, so a decrease in flying activity doesn't make the rates look better, necessarily. I will stipulate that the airline numbers are of high quality (very good record keeping) and the GA numbers are less so.

The fatal accident rate has been relatively steady - here are 2002-2006(from NTSB data):
Year Fatals per 100K Hours
2002 1.223529412
2003 1.217898833
2004 1.172690763
2005 1.264069264
2006 1.1375

Our fatal accident rate over the last 5 years is 102 times worse than the airlines, and about 18 times worse than autos (when miles are converted to hours at 50 MPH).
 
The GA safety record is normalized to accidents per 100,000 hours in both NTSB and Nall data, so a decrease in flying activity doesn't make the rates look better, necessarily. I will stipulate that the airline numbers are of high quality (very good record keeping) and the GA numbers are less so.

The fatal accident rate has been relatively steady - here are 2002-2006(from NTSB data):
Year Fatals per 100K Hours
2002 1.223529412
2003 1.217898833
2004 1.172690763
2005 1.264069264
2006 1.1375

Our fatal accident rate over the last 5 years is 102 times worse than the airlines, and about 18 times worse than autos (when miles are converted to hours at 50 MPH).

I wasn't using Nall or NTSB -- simply stating that the overall number of accidents has decreased -- due to less airplanes flying.

The Normalized rate isn't a whole lot better story, quite frankly.
 
The thought of allowing competent pilots who have outlived their medicals access to the airspace system is not disagreeable in the least. Medical factors cause a very, very small percentage of accidents. However, a majority of aviation accidents could be prevented through training. The thought of having numerous new pilots with less training is sobering at best.

I disagree with the statement that the majority of accidents could have been avoided through more training. I'd say judgement and experience are the primary issues. Judgement in not pushing fuel or weather. Experience in knowing what your capabilities are.

Judgement and common sense are closely related. I don't think you can teach 'em.

Experience is earned by sweat and blood. I don't know many people who can afford to have an instructor sit right seat for long enough to build Ernie Gann's experience. That just isn't realistic. So we cut students loose to become Private Pilots or Light Sport Pilots when the instructor and check pilot agree that the pilot is ready, not before. Remember, two people have to agree that someone is ready fo earned his/her ticket. It ain't automatic at XX hours...
 
I don't care what the numbers are for LSA vs certificated, or even compared to cars. As long as I have the final say as to who gets to fly without more interference. for those who consider it too risky, fine with me, but I don't want anyone else deciding what risks are suitable.
 
I don't care what the numbers are for LSA vs certificated, or even compared to cars. As long as I have the final say as to who gets to fly without more interference. for those who consider it too risky, fine with me, but I don't want anyone else deciding what risks are suitable.

Well, Doc, we live in a society were the society determines what risks are acceptable or not.

Thus traffic lights, guard rails, and circuit breakers.

Some areas society is able to look away -- utnil the risk involves others.

When objects fall from the sky on unsuspecting non-participants, they get upset.
 
I wasn't using Nall or NTSB -- simply stating that the overall number of accidents has decreased -- due to less airplanes flying.

The Normalized rate isn't a whole lot better story, quite frankly.

You said the safey stats had improved - and I agree with what you meant - that they really haven't, much. The rate has been down at this level for over a decade now, and I don't get excited by a change of 1.2 to 1.1, even if it IS technically a 9% decrease.

I'm not sure we can do much to improve it, as the folks who need the dope-slap are typically not the ones who show up for the safety seminars.

Quincy Jones once said "You can't polish doo-doo". My version is "You can't fix stupid".
 
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Anthony....I have to ask if you have any time in an LSA? Look at the panel in Jay's aircraft. Does it look like just an "around the patch" Cub (no offense)? These are modern, safe, go someplace aircraft...that just happen to be a hell of a lot of fun to fly.


I'm not saying LSA's aren't fun to fly nor usefull. All I am saying is I think the intent the FAA has with LSA is to replace GA as a form of transportation. Can you go as far, as fast and carry as much in an LSA as you can with a C-182, Bonanza, Tiger, Cherokee Six, etc? See where I'm going with this?

Didn't mean to bash anyone's plane, I just see a disturbing trend.
 
All I am saying is I think the intent the FAA has with LSA is to replace GA as a form of transportation.
I haven't really followed the LSA movement but I don't get that feeling at all. I thought LSAs were mainly aimed at people who just wanted a way to get up in the air, bum around their local area and get their $100 hamburger. Of course there would be some who would use it as transportation but I never got the idea that was their real purpose.
 
I haven't really followed the LSA movement but I don't get that feeling at all. I thought LSAs were mainly aimed at people who just wanted a way to get up in the air, bum around their local area and get their $100 hamburger. Of course there would be some who would use it as transportation but I never got the idea that was their real purpose.

+1

I'm with Mari. LSAs aren't meant to replace GA. They are meant to help lower the cost of entry for those wanting to fly, but not able to spend as much as $200,000-600,000 for a nice modern airplane. And to provide an alternative for those who may have issues making it through the medical process. Granted, it's somewhat disheartening to see that most all LSAs are in the $100,000+ range and come with glass panels, but that is as much a result of what's selling than it is the purpose of the class.

There are many many many people in this country that dream to fly, but can't justify paying for a c-182 to make a hamburger run with their wife. I don't need a lot of "capability" to do the kind of flying that I do. I just want to get into the air.
 
they could be transportation for a single person, but are limited in payload and speed so that anyone wanting serious transportation would move up, just like they would do from a 152/172/DA20.
 
When I was choosing what plane to build I had two missions in mind. One was just something to fly around the patch the other was to replace the car for my wife and I on trips that in the car would take >2 hours. ELD-NEW, ELD-DAL, ELD-MEM.

I also wanted soemthing I could build by myself. The 601XL happened to fit that perfectly. It can fly 4 hours at 120kts. That pretty much allows my wife and I to leave on a summer afternoon and make it to New Orleans in time for dinner. Wake up the next day have coffee and beneiges at Cafe Du Monde and fly home.

The fact that the 601XL would fall under the LSA rules is just a bonus should I ever have medical issues.

Sure we will be at MGW with anything other than overnight luggage. But that's why they invented FedEx.
 
Have you noticed that sport pilots have LESS privileges? Wouldn't less training make more sense, then?
Nope. Kenny summed it up best in the post directly above yours.

An ever greater margin of safety for the masses is easily gained by the reduction of freedoms of a few. Is that what you are asking for?
Pretty much.....call it "regulatory triage" because I think keeping a few people from doing something that they are not properly trained to do is a good idea. I think the idea of reducing pilot training to the minimum necessary to get someone around the traffic pattern is akin to cutting a year or so off the training of a heart surgeon to try to attract people to a residency.

This just smacks of "I learned the hard way, damnit, and so should everyone else".
Actually, my flight training has not been "the hard way". You're talking to someone who asked to fly more hours before his solo despite the instructor telling me I was more than qualified and I knew I could do it. My instructors have been demanding, but for Christ's sake, I'm going to have the lives of myself and my friends and family (and potentially people on the ground) in my hands. If they aren't demanding, they should have their instructor status revoked.

Do you know any sport pilots? I do, and they are quite safe. There is no Chuck Yeager syndrome going on in those that I know.
As my statistics professor was fond of saying: "I can show you a couple of rational people who claim to have seen Bigfoot. Does that prove he exists?". By the way, I have met several sport pilots (there are two airports up here that seem infested with them). Having seen their flying abilities in near dead calm winds, I can't say I was blown away by their skills.

Kinetic Energy, mostly. (90+%)
Smoke/Fire (5%)
Not to be nit-picky, but I would put it at something more like:
Kinetic energy (blunt trauma) (85%)
Combination of blunt trauma and burns/smoke inhalation (5%)
Burns/Smoke Inhalation (5%)
Drowning (3%)
Medical reasons (1.5%)
Wives/Girlfriends (0.5%) ;)

This is based off a quick look over my research data (except the last one of course ;) )....not 100% accurate but I'm pretty sure you underestimate the number of us who die from post-crash fires
 
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BTW, since I have been accused of being a Democrat who believes in the all knowing nanny state that will save us all....I would like to point out that I am, in fact, a redneck Republican who hunts, owns guns and hates the ACLU and other liberal organizations that tend to mess this country up. However, I do believe people should earn what they get....be that their paycheck or the privileges as a pilot. Making an end run around the requirements is not the same as "earning" it.

In regards to the arguments about "What about if you're a high hour pilot who loses his medical?": I have no problem with those pilots flying under a special category if the medical disqualification is something minor (not like cardiac problems, severe COPD, etc). It's the out of the gate sport pilots that worry me. It's the lack of knowledge and experience that primarily concerns me.

I'm not sure we can do much to improve it, as the folks who need the dope-slap are typically not the ones who show up for the safety seminars.

How about failing them from the start? The EMS training program I used to work as an instructor for regularly failed students who could not cut it despite them whining they had a "right" to be EMTs and/or paramedics. If you realize someone is a marginal student, then don't pass them or at very least hold them back for remedial training. If you really want to reduce the number of morons in our ranks, then the flight instructors need to organize (do they have a national organization?) and handle it themselves. If you refer the people back for remediation, you actually could make more money off of them, regardless of they eventually pass or not. The problem is this would need to be organized or they would simply go down the road to the next CFI whose morals are, how to put it? Lacking?
 
By the way, I have met several sport pilots (there are two airports up here that seem infested with them). Having seen their flying abilities in near dead calm winds, I can't say I was blown away by their skills.

As of 2007 there were only 2,031 Sport pilots licensed with the FAA. In 2007 there were 131 sport and recreational pilots in Michigan. Do they all fly out of your airport? Have you actually asked this infestation if they are LSA pilots.

After reading through this thread I've come to the conclusion Steve that you are the type of person that thinks anyone that hasn't achieved the level that they think they have achieved is going to be a problem. And that's fine.

Do you have a helicopter rating? If not please keep out of my airspace. I just don't think you are safe enough.
 
Well, apparently the practical isn't stringent enough to catch all the marginal pilots out there. You can't catch them all, but CFIs could certainly reduce the numbers....just my two cents. I still think instructors really need to be the gatekeepers more so than they are currently...as an instructor (and former instructor) in two medical fields, I see absolutely no problems with this approach....
 
Do they all fly out of your airport? Have you actually asked this infestation if they are LSA pilots.

I asked the little group where they learned to fly (so I could avoid their instructor and the area) and two of the three I talked to said they were sport pilots (I didn't get an answer from the third guy). When I asked if they were the only ones, they said they knew of "about six or eight" sport pilots that either flew from that airport or the one a couple of towns over.
 
Well, apparently the practical isn't stringent enough to catch all the marginal pilots out there. You can't catch them all, but CFIs could certainly reduce the numbers....just my two cents. I still think instructors really need to be the gatekeepers more so than they are currently...as an instructor (and former instructor) in two medical fields, I see absolutely no problems with this approach....

And what about the bad instructor?

I'm sorry but the approach you propose just isn't a practical system for several reasons. Most importantly, the current system works with an instructor signing off for a third party to check and give the pass/fail. Note that in part 141 programs, several instructors have to sign off. The next problem is who would check the instructors in your proposed system? A check ride is still needed whether it is a DE or a fellow instructor. I'm not even going to go into the differences in instructor standards.

I think sport pilot for new pilots can work but it will take a long time to build the same sort of culture and standards that exist in well established PP programs. The culture of understanding individual light sport aircraft performance and the development of uniform teaching standards will take time. Some folks have already paid for the lack of understanding. Hopefully not too many more will have to pay the same price.
 
I asked the little group where they learned to fly (so I could avoid their instructor and the area) and two of the three I talked to said they were sport pilots (I didn't get an answer from the third guy). When I asked if they were the only ones, they said they knew of "about six or eight" sport pilots that either flew from that airport or the one a couple of towns over.

I am so pleased to know we have such a formidable and talented aviator in our midst. I wonder if you'd be interested in going to one of those places that use T-34s and lasers to simulate dog-fighting with me? I feel sure you could teach me more about combat maneuvers and sharpen my pathetic skills.

Former USAF (combat) fighter pilot
Future LSA pilot
 
My experience with the Light Sport license is not the interest in it but the quality of the aircraft. Just getting parts for these LSA's ( for the most part are foreign made) is hurting us. They are also not made to take the landing abuse that say a Cessna can take. We have found that even experienced pilots are having trouble with them, mostly with landing. A lot of people are not using the recommended power and airspeed setting because they are not correct. It will be interesting what changes the FAA will decide on. We are also eagerly awaiting our order of the new Cessna 162. Please, no coments on the whole China thing. :)
 
Just getting parts for these LSA's ( for the most part are foreign made) is hurting us. They are also not made to take the landing abuse that say a Cessna can take. We have found that even experienced pilots are having trouble with them, mostly with landing.
Which is a large part of the reason I bought a CubCrafters Sport Cub -- built locally by a company that has been in the Cub business for many years, and of conventional design, materials (except for some carbon fiber parts) and construction, and on the same production line as their Part 23 aircraft.

As it is an S-LSA I can deal directly with the manufacturer regarding necessary modification or alteration, rather than going through the STC/337 process or dealing with "Kinder & Gentler's" engineering branch. That's a plus.
 
Ah yes, the cub. We've been talking about that lately. Would love to get a few. They would be a real head turner having a few parked on the ramp.
 
I am so pleased to know we have such a formidable and talented aviator in our midst. I wonder if you'd be interested in going to one of those places that use T-34s and lasers to simulate dog-fighting with me? I feel sure you could teach me more about combat maneuvers and sharpen my pathetic skills.

Former USAF (combat) fighter pilot
Future LSA pilot

I'm game old man, teach you how to do that crap without having a burner to stand on....:p:D
 
Holy cow. It was not my intention to disappear after opening this can of worms, honest...

I'm going to reply to a bunch of messages in this one.


What, precisely, about flying requires a higher medical standard than driving? Altitude? There's no medical certification to drive up Pike's Peak. Concentration? Driven on a Houston freeway lately? The potential to kill many others? I'm sitting in a hotel room looking over Canal Street in Manhattan; one errant car there could wreak lots of carnage.

THANK YOU! I've been saying this for years....
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12131

There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to hold flying above driving, except that people want to make it more elitist. Its certainly just as easy (if not easier), its the regulations that make it harder. Its the public appearance of an unknown entity that makes it scary. More people flying = more educated people related to flying.

Sport pilot is one of the best things to happen to aviation. Next step is elimination of certain disqualifying medical concerns in the first place, followed by making the practical test less intensive.

I'm Nick, and I endorse this message.
 
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I'm game old man, teach you how to do that crap without having a burner to stand on....:p:D

You forget, kid, that my initial training was in the T-34, including combat maneuvers. We're old friends, and sure I'll play. Be fun to do a little turnin' and (well, almost said burnin') whatever. I've been wondering for some time now how many Gs I can still handle. Ha! Probably black out at 1.5 after 5 seconds. :goofy:
 
THANK YOU! I've been saying this for years....
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12131

There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to hold flying above driving, except that people want to make it more elitist. Its certainly just as easy (if not easier), its the regulations that make it harder. Its the public appearance of an unknown entity that makes it scary. More people flying = more educated people related to flying.

Sport pilot is one of the best things to happen to aviation. Next step is elimination of certain disqualifying medical concerns in the first place, followed by making the practical test less intensive.

I'm Nick Brennan, and I endorse this message.

Flying is more difficult than driving. Not hugely, but yes, it is, and it is beyond some people to operate aircraft safely without some level of automation technology.

In a perfect world where it would be perfectly acceptable to let people die, and kill each other off accidentally and by misadventure, I'd agree with you .

However that isn't so, and regulation does not require the government. Case in point, 3 wheel ATVs. Can't buy one anymore, not available. Completely legal, but because some people got hurt on them (me included, but I never blamed the design, I knew it was dangerous, if it weren't for being able to crash and die, it wouldn't be near as much fun.) and the straw that broke the camels back was when this guy put his 6 year old kid on a Honda CR-250 three wheeler (this is what I used to race when I was 12-15, and at 140-155lbs, I barely had enough ass to keep it under control, a 6 year old doesn't stand a chance) and the kid, surprize surprize, killed himself. Big lawsuit, major public outcry "Oh..Save the Children, Won't somebody think of the Children!"... Guess what, Honda couldn't find product liability insurance, and didn't want the bad publicity (three wheelers were but a minor market sector) so they quit manufacturing them, Yamaha and Kawaski immediately followed suit. Boom, no more three wheelers. Now if I want an ATV, I'm forced to buy an old threewheeler and modify it, build one from scratch, or settle for a lame assed 4 wheel ATV which are no where near as fun. Kind of like comparing a real stand up style Jet Ski with a sit down Wave Runner/Sea Doo/.... whatever, they're all the same and boring.

The industry to look at in this matter is the SCUBA industry. They have really done an excellent job of self regulating and keeping the accidents and deaths down by all the operators for the most part operating to the standards set by the industry.
 
You forget, kid, that my initial training was in the T-34, including combat maneuvers. We're old friends, and sure I'll play. Be fun to do a little turnin' and (well, almost said burnin') whatever. I've been wondering for some time now how many Gs I can still handle. Ha! Probably black out at 1.5 after 5 seconds. :goofy:
I would love to watch this. My money is on Ray :)
 
I would love to watch this. My money is on Ray :)

You really think we could find somebody crazy enough to let Henning and me fly their T-34s? Got to admit, it would be a BLAST! :yes: Bet I could still handle 5 or 6 Gs. That oughta be enought to pull a lead on Henning. :D (I can dream, can't I?) :goofy:
 
Nope. Kenny summed it up best in the post directly above yours.

I think the idea of reducing pilot training to the minimum necessary to get someone around the traffic pattern is akin to cutting a year or so off the training of a heart surgeon to try to attract people to a residency.

........If they aren't demanding, they should have their instructor status revoked.

.............Having seen their flying abilities in near dead calm winds, I can't say I was blown away by their skills. ........

LESS required trainning hours/events DOES NOT equate to LESS QUALITY of trainning or lower standards. Students have to demonstrate the required proficiency for the required task to their CFI and DPE just like any other rating. Very few SP students can reach that level in the minimum 20 hours, just like very few PP students achieve proficiency in the minimum 40 hours. Either you meet the standards or you go back and train until you do(SP-ATP). Implying SP is different in this respect is flat wrong.

CFIs and DPEs teaching SP have the same legal and moral responsibilities as those teaching PP, COM, or ATP. Any perception that they don't is again flat wrong. I agree that if any CFI/DPE isn't living up to the standards, they should lose their creds.

Having flown with/instructed numerous PPs, COMs and ATPs, I can tell you that I'll stack my SP students stick and rudder skills up against any PP, most COMs, and even a few ATPs any day. SLSAs are generally lighter, more sensitive to gusts, and have higher performance than your average C152/172 or PA140. Because of this, Light Sport Aircraft breed a better "Sitck and Rudder" pilot than the average spam can(especially if it's a tail dragger) IMO.

Have you actually looked at the SP requirements and PTS. It requires significantly more trainning than is required to "Just fly around the pattern". Once again I'll stack my SP students knowledge of the CFARs, their ADM, pilotage and basic airmanship up against any new PP.

Requiring more stringent medical requirements would also be a huge waste of time and effort. By your own statistics, medical problems are a factor in a VERY small percentage of incidents/accidents. And as far as I can tell, all of those to date have been with a pilot flying on or supposed to be flying on a current medical certificate. The FAA is even moving in the direction of less restrictive medicals (i.e. Class I frequency going from 6 months to 12 for under 40). Every pilot is still required to self certify before every flight. As stated by someone else, the high time "grey Beard" is probably going to have a better idea of the taskloading and his ability to handle it than a brand new PP with a Class III anyway. Denying returning pilots or even new SPs a chance to meet the standards and fly IS elitist.

In summary, the Light Sport Aircraft and Sport Pilot innitiatives have done more to attract new pilots to, get more pilots back into, and stimulate GA than anything else for quite some time.

In the interest of full disclosure, I've been a distirbutor for 5 different models of Light Sport Aircraft (soon to be 6,7,and 8 hopefully). I was involved in Light Sport years befor the rules were finalized and had a minor hand in setting the standards. So I have a small financial interest in the topic.


Fly Safe and keep learning,

Maddog
 
>Flying is more difficult than driving. Not hugely, but yes, it is, and it is beyond
> some people to operate aircraft safely without some level of automation technology.

heck, some people can't even drive a car without some level of automation. :-/
 
Poor ADM kills pilots.

Actually, I'd bet that old age kills most pilots. As a group, I'd have to guess that we're healthier, more mentally active and engaged people until later in life than your average cards-playing retiree. And, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and opine that the FAA medical examine has very little to do with why we're that way.

Why are there so many Chicken Little types in aviation? I believe in enlightened self interest and a strong self preservation instinct and credit those for the lions share of the safety we as a species enjoy in anything we do. There are always going to be darwin award candidates regardless of the level of government oversight an activity receives. When we "evolve" to the point that people are saying "The rules say it's OK, let's go!" - then what kind of safety record do you think we'll have?

And finally, it absolutely astounds and depresses me that we are a society that willingly and eagerly accepts government oversight (I say intrusion) into our lives the way we do. I always wear a seat belt in my car but it's so wrong for those who serve me to tell me I legally must. We live in a society now where everyone thinks they're safer than they are because they've been conditioned by now to think "the government" will keep us safe - kinda like Disney World. Has that made us better off or worse?
 
The industry to look at in this matter is the SCUBA industry. They have really done an excellent job of self regulating and keeping the accidents and deaths down by all the operators for the most part operating to the standards set by the industry.
I have pointed them out in the past as an example.

One of the best things they did was to compile accident statistics on a yearly basis. Then with an international standard being approved were able to show that the accidents decreased with their self-regulation.

To get scuba certified has become a lot easier than when I first got my card +25 years ago. Back then the entry level point had people learning things that we do not teach any longer or defer until the Divemaster level. One certification agency has not joined in with the others to develop the international standard that is being used but instead decided that any "cheapening of standards" was bad for the industry. They have seen their market share decrease dramatically over the years and the statistics do not bear out their hypothesis.

Today more people dive than ever before with training that makes it easy for the entry level diver. What also went with the less is more idea of training is that the tour operators has to understand that new divers are less capable of doing more advanced dives than more experienced divers. Just as LSA pilots have less privileges than private pilots.
 
BTW, since I have been accused of being a Democrat who believes in the all knowing nanny state that will save us all....I would like to point out that I am, in fact, a redneck Republican who hunts, owns guns and hates the ACLU and other liberal organizations that tend to mess this country up.
Your comment that people should be regulated away from doing dangerous things sure doesn't sound like it came from someone with this background.

In regards to the arguments about "What about if you're a high hour pilot who loses his medical?": I have no problem with those pilots flying under a special category if the medical disqualification is something minor (not like cardiac problems, severe COPD, etc).
Again, I ask: If someone's safe to drive with a cardiac history, why aren't they safe to fly? Be specific, please; "we need to be as safe as possible" won't cut it. The same goes for diabetes, asthma, sleep apnea, depression, and lots of other conditions that the FAA makes getting even a third class medical difficult.

It's the out of the gate sport pilots that worry me. It's the lack of knowledge and experience that primarily concerns me.
In what way does the extra training of a private (remember, it's 20 hours or less) change this to the point you consider it acceptable? Why is a 40-hour private pilot fresh from his checkride safer than a 20-hour sport pilot fresh from his?

How about failing them from the start? The EMS training program I used to work as an instructor for regularly failed students who could not cut it despite them whining they had a "right" to be EMTs and/or paramedics. If you realize someone is a marginal student, then don't pass them or at very least hold them back for remedial training.
I spent 17 years in volunteer EMS, 10 of those as a paramedic, 8 of that as team lead, with a service that won two Texas volunteer EMS provider of the year awards while I was there. ANY EMS training program turns out its share of turkeys. Further, no freshly minted paramedic is ever as competent as one who had been out on the street for a few years and had seen the real world. Is the fix for that to require four years of training for a paramedic? At some point, you have to kick them out of the nest and let them actually treat patients and manage scenes. The same goes for aviation: at some point, you have to let them go off and learn.

The problem is this would need to be organized or they would simply go down the road to the next CFI whose morals are, how to put it? Lacking?
This happens in EMS. Why do you think it wouldn't happen in aviation?

The problem is despite the CFI sign-off, he/she still has to pass a practical.
Exactly. The pilot has to demonstrate his competence to someone independent before he gets to go fly without oversight.

I still think instructors really need to be the gatekeepers more so than they are currently...as an instructor (and former instructor) in two medical fields, I see absolutely no problems with this approach....
That only goes so far in aviation, just as it only goes so far in medicine. We've all dealt with incompetent doctors, nurses, EMTs,... The percentage of those is no smaller than the percentage of them in aviation.

My experience with the Light Sport license is not the interest in it but the quality of the aircraft. Just getting parts for these LSA's ( for the most part are foreign made) is hurting us. They are also not made to take the landing abuse that say a Cessna can take.
Now you know why I bought a Zodiac. :) Not only does it use standard aircraft parts throughout, not only is it built entirely in the USA, but when I did a BFR in one after 15 years away from flying, I beat the heck out of it and the instructor didn't raise an eyebrow. As long as you put it on the mains first, you won't break anything. The main gear is a single 30-pound piece of aluminum bar.

I have heard stories of one very popular LSA having trouble with the mains breaking off in a hard landing...but that one wasn't on my short list anyway.

We are also eagerly awaiting our order of the new Cessna 162. Please, no coments on the whole China thing. :)
Well, at least Cessna knows how to make spare parts available.

Flying is more difficult than driving. Not hugely, but yes, it is, and it is beyond some people to operate aircraft safely without some level of automation technology.
That it's more difficult is something nobody will argue with. That's why there are minimum training requirements and multiple signoffs needed before you can get a license.

LESS required trainning hours/events DOES NOT equate to LESS QUALITY of trainning or lower standards.
Exactly. Merely adding hours will not result in safer pilots - unless you add enough hours to get past the hump in accident stats at several hundred hours total time.

Having flown with/instructed numerous PPs, COMs and ATPs, I can tell you that I'll stack my SP students stick and rudder skills up against any PP, most COMs, and even a few ATPs any day. SLSAs are generally lighter, more sensitive to gusts, and have higher performance than your average C152/172 or PA140. Because of this, Light Sport Aircraft breed a better "Sitck and Rudder" pilot than the average spam can(especially if it's a tail dragger) IMO.
Indeed. I've flown with a few folks who've learned to fly in 172/Warrior-class airplanes, and the Zodiac is a handful for them until they get used to the light touch needed. Folks who've never flown before have less trouble with it.

Have you actually looked at the SP requirements and PTS. It requires significantly more trainning than is required to "Just fly around the pattern".
I don't have time now, but sometime in the next day I'll sit down with Part 61 and detail just what the differences are between SP-ASEL and PP-ASEL. They're not that great.

Once again I'll stack my SP students knowledge of the CFARs, their ADM, pilotage and basic airmanship up against any new PP.
This all comes down to the instructor. A CFI who takes shortcuts will turn out a crappy pilot, true, but that's just as true for a PP as it would be an SP.

Requiring more stringent medical requirements would also be a huge waste of time and effort. By your own statistics, medical problems are a factor in a VERY small percentage of incidents/accidents. And as far as I can tell, all of those to date have been with a pilot flying on or supposed to be flying on a current medical certificate.
Indeed. The current medical requirements are a relic of the 1930s. They do not reflect real-world experience.

Denying returning pilots or even new SPs a chance to meet the standards and fly IS elitist.
Yup. It's just a different kind of elitism, not about money or social status, but about meaningless ticket-punching.
 
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You really think we could find somebody crazy enough to let Henning and me fly their T-34s? Got to admit, it would be a BLAST! :yes: Bet I could still handle 5 or 6 Gs. That oughta be enought to pull a lead on Henning. :D (I can dream, can't I?) :goofy:

Maybe a pair of T-6s.... I doubt if 5-6gs will get a lead on me since I'll be behind you....:rofl::p
 
Maybe a pair of T-6s.... I doubt if 5-6gs will get a lead on me since I'll be behind you....:rofl::p

T-6? Hmm...never flown one. Whatever, it's got to have enough power so we can play in the vertical. I love yoyos, high and low. Needs a good roll rate, too, for those RARE occasions when you get lucky enough to be on my six for half a second. :rofl: Guess it'll never happen, but sure is fun to contemplate. Yep, yep, yep! :D:D:D :cheerswine:
 
Actually, I'd bet that old age kills most pilots. As a group, I'd have to guess that we're healthier, more mentally active and engaged people until later in life than your average cards-playing retiree. And, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and opine that the FAA medical examine has very little to do with why we're that way.
For most pilots, that's true. For a few, it's not such as the old timer I know back in Houston. His opinion of himself is he's still a safe pilot. Yet, he wanted to get checked out to rent before his medical expired... implying he didn't think he was likely to pass a new medical. If that's the case, one should self-ground. If you're not doing that when you believe you're not medically capable, there's something wrong in your ADM.

Why are there so many Chicken Little types in aviation? I believe in enlightened self interest and a strong self preservation instinct and credit those for the lions share of the safety we as a species enjoy in anything we do. There are always going to be darwin award candidates regardless of the level of government oversight an activity receives. When we "evolve" to the point that people are saying "The rules say it's OK, let's go!" - then what kind of safety record do you think we'll have?
I think the Chicken Little types are mostly outside of aviation, looking in. Unfortunately, they have a good base to observe with those who do not utilize ADM.

My problem isn't those who want to go out and want to take the risks. It's when they put themselves and others in a situation where someone else is going to get hurt. If the outsider survives, they're likely to become one of those Chicken Little types.

Aviation throughout, right down to the pilots, does a good job at creating the scenarios which bring about the Chicken Little types. So, when we have to contend with people like the manager at McCarron... more often than not, we have ourselves to blame. We provide far too much fodder for their argument.

And finally, it absolutely astounds and depresses me that we are a society that willingly and eagerly accepts government oversight (I say intrusion) into our lives the way we do. I always wear a seat belt in my car but it's so wrong for those who serve me to tell me I legally must. We live in a society now where everyone thinks they're safer than they are because they've been conditioned by now to think "the government" will keep us safe - kinda like Disney World. Has that made us better off or worse?
While I despise government regulation on the whole and am tired of so many useless or worthless laws written, there's a large sector of society who allow it or worse, require it. They refuse to act responsibly so someone else must require them by statute to take such actions. We haven't seen the end of this, either.
 
T-6? Hmm...never flown one. Whatever, it's got to have enough power so we can play in the vertical. I love yoyos, high and low. Needs a good roll rate, too, for those RARE occasions when you get lucky enough to be on my six for half a second. :rofl: Guess it'll never happen, but sure is fun to contemplate. Yep, yep, yep! :D:D:D :cheerswine:
Why don't you two put on fluorescent condoms and have a swordfight in the dark?

(Can't remember the movie where that scene took place accompanied by StarWars sound effects - Space Balls)?
 
Why don't you two put on fluorescent condoms and have a swordfight in the dark?

(Can't remember the movie where that scene took place accompanied by StarWars sound effects - Space Balls)?

I vaguely remember the film. Seems like one of them was John Ritter, but I can't be sure. Don't think it was Space Balls, though. Wouldn't be my cup of tea, in any event. What Henning and I are yakking about takes me back to my days of being an active fighter pilot. The practice was pure fun! It only stopped being fun when the other guy was pulling the trigger for real. That's when all the playing and practice paid off.
 
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