Sport Pilot Certificate with DUI's

The American Board of Psychiatry considers alcohol to be “substance” and so therefore does FAA. Please do not allow your personal agenda to confuse you, nor your desires to replace a medical degree. In fact, in part 67 the only substance specifically exempted from the definition of dependence or abuse are “xanthine containing beverages”. Alcohol is NOT okay.

Over 10% of Americans are going to have their lives interfered/ adversely affected by maladaptive use of alcohol. It is also a depressant.

Salty, you do not need to agree. It is what it is.

The OP’s second DUI is clearly maladaptive; he did not learn. And now he explores possible ways to not be held to account in a federal arena, aviation.

“Just the facts”.
 
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I’m not arguing that two DUIs are a good thing. I’m arguing that the form doesn’t say squat about DUIs. Yet you keep bringing them up.
 
Man, it's about substance use. The question on the sport pilot application is incrdibly broad. And I'm not saying anything as to it's apporpriateness, just sayin that if one gets found out, it's be an attorny battle worth one's entire estate. A member of a promient politician's family, is just figuring that one out, now. And it sure does say "substance", and alcohol is a substance of use and of abuse both. If you can't see the differencece, "good luck in court".
 
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bbchien said:
Man, it's about substance use. The question on the sport pilot application is incrdibly broad. And I'm not saying anything as to it's apporpriateness, just sayin that if one gets found out, it's be an attorny battle worth one's entire estate. Hunter B is just figuring that one out, now. And it sure does say "substance", and alcohol is a substance of use and of abuse both. If you can't see the differencece, "good luck in court".
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Your point of view is certainly valid. I don't think it is the only valid one.
 
Don't take this as legal advice, but from my legal viewpoint: While the FAA may have meant to include alcohol, it did not list it on the form. And while not a statute, I would think a court would consider the Ejusdem Generis rule when interpreting what the FAA meant.

In the absence of an opinion letter from the FAA, or some sort of instructions on how to fill the form out, it does NOT appear that the FAA was looking for alcohol to be included in this list. We can all speculate as to why, but unless there is commentary from the FAA during the rulemaking process, we simply cannot know for sure.

All that said - I suspect that this language, on the cover sheet, may be meaningful in understanding why Za is directed at drugs versus alcohol:

"(c) To provide information about airmanapprehension of drug-law violators."
 
That the question includes marijuana but not alcohol, specifically, would lead a reasonable person not otherwise required to be educated in the nuances of FAA jargon and definitions to conclude that alcohol was not meant to be included in that list. Similarly, the difference to the FAA between one and two DUIs, while obvious to those of us who follow FAA medical determinations, would not be at all obvious to a reasonable person reading the form without otherwise explicit instructions to follow. To be convicted of lying on a Federal form, there has to be intent to deceive. In the absence of clear instructions to the contrary, this would be very difficult to prove in court for this situation. It would seem if the FAA wanted to clarify this to include alcohol, it would be as simple as adding ", alcohol", after marijuana, and including an NDR search authorization with the application.
 
I suspect the disconnect may originate in a time when they were concerned about drunk pilots, but other drugs weren't yet common enough to be on the FAA's radar. Later questions about drugs may not have mentioned alcohol because that was already covered.
 
bflynn said:
I'm not arguing for or against. But me, not being a medical professional, I do not think of alcohol as a depressant. Because the list says A, B or depressant or stimulant drugs, I am led to believe they're talking about pills or injections. Parsing the English, I come up with A, B or (C or D), with C and D being opposites. Regardless of any bodily influence, I don't consider alcohol to be the opposite of a stimulant drug, unless you're also including all social drugs, for example, caffeine as a stimulant.

Again - not arguing for or against, but recording my reaction to reading the question. If alcohol is meant to be included, the phrasing is misleading to me. Does the FAA have a document which tells the prospective sport pilot how to answer that question?
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I have not found one for form 8710-11 however the same question is asked on the unmanned aircraft certificate for 8710-13 box N and the instructions for this are as follows

Block N. Narcotics Drugs. Mark yes or no. Only mark “Yes if you have
actually been convicted. If you have been charged with a violation which has not
been adjudicated, mark “No”. If you marked “Yes”, please provide the date of
final conviction and an explanation of the offense. You may include an
attachment if necessary.

Now this is the same question.. on a different form or course.
 
bbchien said:
Nah. But the original poster has TWO DUIs and is asking if he has to check the box on the sport pilot application. He does....unless he wants to commit a "Hunter".
Dad gave me some very good counsel about 50 years ago- "Son, it's much easier to have no record that to try to correct a record". And I add to that:

And, Don't commit felonies on the way to getting what you want. Even the presdient's son isn't gonna get away with it. Then, try getting any sort of job/apartment/etc with that on your criminal background check.
All you are doing is making it very easy for someone else to discretionarily ruin your life.

'Course, it would have been easier to never have gottent the record.....
And, No, the FBI fingerprint database NEVER expunges.....no matter what any state license attorney might say...
(I'm thinking the O.P. didn't like what I had to say- but that's the way it is).
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The same question on the form 8710-1 is also asked on the form 8710-13 as well as form 8710-11. How is it that the same exact question is asked on 2 other forms not expecting alcohol related convictions but is expected on form 8710-11?

You are not helping me by simply saying "flying may not be for you"

But I've read other posts where you were giving information on what to do for other people in similliar situation as mine.

So why is it that I'm hopless and should give up? But others aren't as hopless and can even obtain their medical in some cases?

I understand that everyone in here thinks that no one with an alcohol related offense should ever touch and airplane. But I believe people make mistakes and that should not dictate who they are in the present.

I am not denying being guilty nor have I made any excuses for my actions. But to say flying isn't for me is an insult when I've read countless posts of these forums where your response was different.
 
bflynn said:
Does the FAA have a document which tells the prospective sport pilot how to answer that question?
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Block Za. Narcotics Drugs. Mark appropriate block. Only mark “Yes” if
you have actually been convicted. If you have been charged with a violation
which has not been adjudicated, mark “No.” Do not include motor vehicle
actions already reported in accordance with as defined in 14 CFR §61.15(c).

61.15(C) references convictions etc. for alcohol or drugs.
 
Bwally, what you do on a federal application is answer full and vet it fully. Many here don't belive that but a large part of what I do happens after the airman gets a certififed, challenge letter demanding information, from the bureaucracy. As I noted way upstream, Sport pilt is NOT MY LANE.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:

Block Za. Narcotics Drugs. Mark appropriate block. Only mark “Yes” if
you have actually been convicted. If you have been charged with a violation
which has not been adjudicated, mark “No.” Do not include motor vehicle
actions already reported in accordance with as defined in 14 CFR §61.15(c).

61.15(C) references convictions etc. for alcohol or drugs.
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Thanks this is what I was looking for. I found an older form but could not find this one.

So it looks like they are looking for convictions related to Narcotics or drugs. This is the answer I was looking for.

Thanks man!
 
bbchien said:
Bwally, what you do on a federal application is answer full and vet it fully. Many here don't belive that but a large part of what I do happens after the airman gets a certififed, challenge letter demanding information, from the bureaucracy. As I noted way upstream, Sport pilt is NOT MY LANE.
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I do believe in answering full and truthfully that Is why I am asking the questions I am...

I understand obtaining a medical is different. But it appears the FAA is looking for convictions of Drug or Narcotic related convictions. None of which I have. So if I were to answer yes on this form it could have caused me problems.

But it appears on 61.15(a)(1). That even a drug related incident wouldn't be grounds for denial unless it was within 1 year from the date of application.

This is all good information for others as well.
 
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