Spins

U

Unregistered

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So let us say that I rented an airplane of a type approved for spins and took it out and spun it. I do not want to get more specific on the type.
I have not received any formal training in spins and had not done them with a CFI but I have seen a number of presentations on spin recovery including those by Rich Stowell and I know PARE.
I let the airplane stall, power off, and when one wing dropped, I hit full rudder on that side, usually the left side but not always, I think. The airplane would enter a spin but often would fly out of it or transition to a spiral perhaps within a half turn. Recovery was no big deal.
My question is how do I hold it in a spin? I kept the full in-spin rudder in until I was ready to recover but it would still sometimes fly out. Should I also be holding opposite aileron and have it really crossed up? Is that normally necessary to maintan a spin?
Oh, it was fun.
 
You should get a little instruction from a competent CFI in that airplane.

Further, do the people you rented the airplane from know you're spinning it? Just because an airplane can legally be spun doesn't mean the owners want you spinning it.

You really shouldn't have done it the first time, both for safety, and (if you didn't get permission) out of respect for someone else's property.
 
Also, please understand that even if the plane is certified for spining, it will likely only be approved in the utility category of the weight and balance envelope.
 
As a fellow dingbat I went a spinning when I was a student pilot. Plane was approved, I knew what a spin was and how to recover, and I started with plenty of altitude and all that jazz. It worked out just fine and I did not stress the airplane. I'd never recommend anyone do this, FYI.

Now, i'll tell you what you're doing wrong. In order to spin (i'm guessing a cessna):

Power off, as you approach the stall feed in almost full left rudder and keep hauling back on the yoke till you stall.

Once you stall and the wing begins to duck under, Maintain the back pressure on the yoke and the left rudder input. Hold these inputs while you are in the spin (yoke back, left rudder) Otherwise you'll pop out and enter a spiral dive and start picking up airspeed quick.

^ From your original post it does not look like you were holding in back pressure on the yoke. you must maintain the back pressure in order to keep the plane in a spin (cessna).

To recover, release the back pressure (don't slam the yoke forward, just release the pressure quickly) and simultaneously add opposite rudder. You'll pop right out and your airspeed will start picking up like mad. This is when you should pull up (smoothly I might add) :)


Don't fool around with aileron input. Not necessary.
 
Have you also tried brain surgery on yourself using a mirror?

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE get some training with a competent instructor before you do this again, especially trying to hold it in a spin, as you may unintentionally discover where it is the spin becomes unrecoverable, or requires recovery techniques of which you aren't aware.
 
Ron Levy said:
Have you also tried brain surgery on yourself using a mirror?

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE get some training with a competent instructor before you do this again, especially trying to hold it in a spin, as you may unintentionally discover where it is the spin becomes unrecoverable, or requires recovery techniques of which you aren't aware.
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Ron, Tim, et al, I have a lot of respect for you guys and your opinions, but if this guy wants to spin himself into the ground, I say go ahead; just don't take anyone with you (air or ground). He's figured out how to do it and I say Kudos. Then I shake my finger at him and say 'don't do it again', but the reality is...he most certainly will continue spinning either until he grows up, or smokes himself.

Additionally, its not nice to do it with someone else's property.

Lastly, what harm is being done to the airplane? Considering a recovery of course.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Ron, Tim, et al, I have a lot of respect for you guys and your opinions, but if this guy wants to spin himself into the ground, I say go ahead; just don't take anyone with you (air or ground).
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When folks do stuff like that, it scares airport neighbors, raises the cost of insurance, and encourages the Feds to write more restrictive regulations. Since all of that makes flying more difficult and expensive for me, I will do what I can to prevent folks from doing dumb things like intentionally teaching themselves how to enter and recover from spins.
 
Although I agree with you (esp about the insurance costs part) your words obviously will fall on deaf ears (see his original post and the schleppo offering him advice).
 
I failed my checkride the first time around because the power off stall was ugly and I was not handling the rudder properly in the stall since I was being timid with it. My CFI correctly diagnosed that I was fearing the idea of spinning so we went up to demonstrate a spin in the 172. This particular flight school used a different airplane for CFI spin training typically but it wasn't the one I was using for my training and checkride so my CFI consulted with the assistant chief instructor and they decided it was OK without telling the chief instructor. We did make sure our W&B was well within the utility envelope, and this 1970 model was approved for spins.

We had plenty of altitude (over 5000 AGL, as I recall) and did a normal power off stall entry followed by a quick burst of power and simultaneous full left rudder at the stall break. Ailerons were held neutral throughout the maneuver. The spin was not anywhere near as scary as I imagined and it isn't a high G event (until you pull out of the dive) so it didn't bother my stomach as much as I feared. Recovery was just power off, release all back pressure, opposite rudder. The 172 slips into a spiral dive almost immediately anyway, it really doesn't want to stay in the spin.

I don't think practicing spins without at minimum another experienced pilot and preferably a CFI is a good idea. What if I had gotten very nauseous, or disoriented, or...? Best to be safe.
 
Unregistered said:
To recover, release the back pressure (don't slam the yoke forward, just release the pressure quickly) and simultaneously add opposite rudder.
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Now, if he's spinning certain models of the Cessna 150, they will flatten out after a couple of turns and will require "full, abrupt down elevator" as an amendment to the POH puts it. If this isn't done they won't recover. Not all airplanes are as docile as the 172.

Dan
 
Unregistered said:
So let us say that I rented an airplane of a type approved for spins and took it out and spun it. I do not want to get more specific on the type.
I have not received any formal training in spins and had not done them with a CFI but I have seen a number of presentations on spin recovery including those by Rich Stowell and I know PARE.
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You're being unfair to the owner of the plane, who will have to go through a lot of trouble to recover the insurance proceeds.

14 CFR 91.307(c) requires you to wear a parachute if you try this, unless under 91.307(d)(2) you're with an instructor and pursuing a rating.

Now that I look at it, it appears my own spin training probably required me to wear a parachute because spin training is no longer required for a private pilot rating.

Spins are a lot of fun, until they aren't, and then they get fatal. Bring along someone who knows what he's doing.

- jkw
 
Oldman said:
14 CFR 91.307(c) requires you to wear a parachute if you try this, unless under 91.307(d)(2) you're with an instructor and pursuing a rating.
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No, not when you're solo. Spins are considered aerobatics, except when receiving flight training from a CFI, and there is no chute requirement when performing solo aerobatics.

There's nothing wrong with spinning a utility category airplane that's not placarded against spins - so I don't get all the fuss about disrespect to the owner of the plane. Spins don't put any stress on the airplane. The recovery is no more stress than a steep turn. The wisdom of you doing this on your own for the first time is, of course, another issue.
 
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RoscoeT said:
No, not when you're solo. Spins are considered aerobatics, except when receiving flight training from a CFI, and there is no chute requirement when performing solo aerobatics.

There's nothing wrong with spinning a utility category airplane that's not placarded against spins - so I don't get all the fuss about disrespect to the owner of the plane. Spins don't put any stress on the airplane. The recovery is no more stress than a steep turn. The wisdom of you doing this on your own for the first time is, of course, another issue.
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I stand corrected. The applicable reg says:

Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds --

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.


Which is exactly what you said.

I stick with my opinion, though. Even in a 172, the suddenness of the speed increase catches you by surprise the first time.

- jkw
 
Oldman said:
I stand corrected. The applicable reg says:

Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds --

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.


Which is exactly what you said.

I stick with my opinion, though. Even in a 172, the suddenness of the speed increase catches you by surprise the first time.

- jkw
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Not sure spins meet that 30 60 description.
 
RoscoeT said:
No, not when you're solo. Spins are considered aerobatics, except when receiving flight training from a CFI, and there is no chute requirement when performing solo aerobatics.
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Spins are considered acrobatic maneuvers whether there's a CFI giving training or not. What changes when receiving that training is that parachutes are no longer required by 91.307. The spin is still considered an acrobatic maneuver by 91.303, and the restrictions in that reg still apply.

There's nothing wrong with spinning a utility category airplane that's not placarded against spins - so I don't get all the fuss about disrespect to the owner of the plane. Spins don't put any stress on the airplane. The recovery is no more stress than a steep turn.
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If done properly, spins don't put that much stress on the airframe (although they can if you screw it up, which I'd say isn't unforeseeable when teaching yourself), but they beat the snot out of the gyro instruments. For that reason, I think spinning someone else's plane without their knowledge or permission is an abuse of your permission to use the plane.

FWIW, when I was instructing at a flight school a long time ago, we kept one Cessna 150 with no gyros just for spin training, and the boss had a clear "no spins" policy with the rest of the 150's.
 
Unregistered said:
.
My question is how do I hold it in a spin?.
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Neutral aileron, keep the yoke back to your chest, bury the rudder pedal pro spin......

Keep the stall going.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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OP here. Thanks for the help so far, especially those that confessed their own efforts. In response to some other points, there is nothing going on here that the FAA would have anything to say about. There are no airport neighbors watching me, I doubt there would be any insurance issue as I did not advertise my intention. Yes, there is that issue of misusing a rental airplane but then I have probably misused a rental car or two in my career also.

Regarding the advice given, I was already holding full back elevator and in-spin rudder until the recovery. The only difference being that I added the rudder after the wing started to drop rather than initiate that drop with rudder.

I find myself agreeing most with the below:

RoscoeT said:
No, not when you're solo. Spins are considered aerobatics, except when receiving flight training from a CFI, and there is no chute requirement when performing solo aerobatics.

There's nothing wrong with spinning a utility category airplane that's not placarded against spins - so I don't get all the fuss about disrespect to the owner of the plane. Spins don't put any stress on the airplane. The recovery is no more stress than a steep turn. The wisdom of you doing this on your own for the first time is, of course, another issue.
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A lot of other objection seems to be OMG A SPIN.

The spins and recoveries were relatively mild maneuvers. The only time I pulled anything like 2g was being a bit late on the recovery. Doing better comes with practice.

As far as the wisdom of doing it on my own the first time, that train has already left the station.

Not trying to be arrogant just that, personally, I have no problem with teaching myself an extreme sport, although spins are not very extreme, and many have gone before me in that. And sure, many have died in spins but I would wager that many more have died as a result of not recognizing an incipient spin and not knowing how to recover than heve died trying them on their own with altitude, in an appropriate airplane, and with a good knowledge of recovery techniques.
 
Unregistered said:
OP here. Thanks for the help so far, especially those that confessed their own efforts. In response to some other points, there is nothing going on here that the FAA would have anything to say about. There are no airport neighbors watching me, I doubt there would be any insurance issue as I did not advertise my intention. Yes, there is that issue of misusing a rental airplane but then I have probably misused a rental car or two in my career also.

Regarding the advice given, I was already holding full back elevator and in-spin rudder until the recovery. The only difference being that I added the rudder after the wing started to drop rather than initiate that drop with rudder.

I find myself agreeing most with the below:



A lot of other objection seems to be OMG A SPIN.

The spins and recoveries were relatively mild maneuvers. The only time I pulled anything like 2g was being a bit late on the recovery. Doing better comes with practice.

As far as the wisdom of doing it on my own the first time, that train has already left the station.

Not trying to be arrogant just that, personally, I have no problem with teaching myself an extreme sport, although spins are not very extreme, and many have gone before me in that. And sure, many have died in spins but I would wager that many more have died as a result of not recognizing an incipient spin and not knowing how to recover than heve died trying them on their own with altitude, in an appropriate airplane, and with a good knowledge of recovery techniques.
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Is that why you hide your identity?
Liar, liar pants on Fire.
 
The POA family is a great bunch of folks. Some try to answer the OP's question while warning him/her from doing spins without proper instruction.

IMHO the OP is a flaming idiot. I see him, in the future, buzzing his neighborhood and planting his airplane in a smoking hole in his back yard.

But again... That's just my Opinion, and you know what they say about those...
 
My favorite way to spin is to start by rolling inverted. Then power to idle, feed in down elevator to maintain level flight, and wait for a stall to develop. When a wing drops, full rudder in that direction and full aileron for a short spiral. Then reverse ailerons and add power to flatten the spin being careful not to use enough aileron to snap out of the spin. You will notice as the spin flattens it slows, don't go to far or you will snap out. 40% power usually works nicely. 20 rotations isn't unreasonable. Don't hold the spin much below 150 agl then release controls to neutral - plane will recover into dive then add a little up elevator returning to level flight.

* 7.5 lb RC Yak
** 27 hour solo student preparing for x-country will no intention of spinning my 172
 
FlyerQ said:
My favorite way to spin is to start by rolling inverted. Then power to idle, feed in down elevator to maintain level flight, and wait for a stall to develop. When a wing drops, full rudder in that direction and full aileron for a short spiral. Then reverse ailerons and add power to flatten the spin being careful not to use enough aileron to snap out of the spin. You will notice as the spin flattens it slows, don't go to far or you will snap out. 40% power usually works nicely. 20 rotations isn't unreasonable. Don't hold the spin much below 150 agl then release controls to neutral - plane will recover into dive then add a little up elevator returning to level flight.

* 7.5 lb RC Yak
** 27 hour solo student preparing for x-country will no intention of spinning my 172
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Hey, I vote all PoA gets together and does synchronized spinning IAW the above post.:rofl:
 
RoscoeT said:
Yep, flying a 172 is very extreme. ;) I think this thread started with a troll post.
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Wow, RoscoeT, you are tough. One word you do not like and you are ready to call the whole thing off. Tell you what, start a poll and ask how many non-aerobatic pilots think spinning solo is extreme, even with prior instruction. And I immediately said that spinning is not extreme. Like I said, tough.

FlyerQ, you had me going for a bit. At least it did not end with you saying that mom called you to dinner and you had to turn MS Flight Sim off ;-)

JKW, if you want to make this about macho, again based on one word that I immediately disowned, then go right ahead :)
 
Unregistered said:
OP here. Thanks for the help so far, especially those that confessed their own efforts. In response to some other points, there is nothing going on here that the FAA would have anything to say about. There are no airport neighbors watching me, I doubt there would be any insurance issue as I did not advertise my intention. Yes, there is that issue of misusing a rental airplane but then I have probably misused a rental car or two in my career also.
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And if you feel that you're entitled to abuse a rental airplane in the way that you might abuse a rental car... then you're a double-asshat.

It was clear by your anonymous initial posting you suspected you're not behaving in a way that says good things about your character.

This response says even worse things about your character as an aviator.
 
Oldman said:
It isn't about macho at all. It's about good judgment.

- jkw
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But that is not what you implied.

Also for those that think spinning an approved airplane, at altitude, with a knowledge of recovery technique will lead to a smoking crater; do you really? How about that it will lead to doing maneuvers that the airplane is not designed to handle? Why would you make that assumption?

It is similar to the claim that marijuana use leads to heroin addiction. No, marijuana use leads to spinning rental aircraft. LOL. That is a joke. Drinking Jack Daniels leads to spinning aircraft.
 
TMetzinger said:
And if you feel that you're entitled to abuse a rental airplane in the way that you might abuse a rental car... then you're a double-asshat.

It was clear by your anonymous initial posting you suspected you're not behaving in a way that says good things about your character.

This response says even worse things about your character as an aviator.
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It is no more abusive than a steep turn.

And yes, I realize that others will not agree with me. The main thing it says about my character is that I am a risk-taker. Calculated risk-taker. Yes.
 
Ron Levy said:
Have you also tried brain surgery on yourself using a mirror?

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE get some training with a competent instructor before you do this again, especially trying to hold it in a spin, as you may unintentionally discover where it is the spin becomes unrecoverable, or requires recovery techniques of which you aren't aware.
Click to expand...

Ron, he's seen the video. What else does he need? :dunno::mad2:

From the "John and Martha Taught Me Everything I Need to Know" club. :D
 
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