Spins

TMetzinger said:
What's your pitch in a steep turn?
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The g-force in the pull out after a spin is less than the g-force in a steep turn. Much less, in most of the ones I did. That is my point. What is yours? Other than that I am an idiot, of course. :)
 
Unregistered said:
I am confused. What definition of troll are you referring to?
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Hmmm, must be this one:

troll: someone that posts an opinion, or advocates a position, that I did not subscribe to. Therefore we shall call him names and ignore him and advise others to do the same :)
 
Jaybird180 said:
Ron, Tim, et al, I have a lot of respect for you guys and your opinions, but if this guy wants to spin himself into the ground, I say go ahead; just don't take anyone with you (air or ground). He's figured out how to do it and I say Kudos. Then I shake my finger at him and say 'don't do it again', but the reality is...he most certainly will continue spinning either until he grows up, or smokes himself.

Additionally, its not nice to do it with someone else's property.

Lastly, what harm is being done to the airplane? Considering a recovery of course.
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Jaybird, you are all over the place in this post. I suspect you are a fellow dingbat. :)
 
I have seen respected people (e.g. Rich Stowell) indicate that spins don't hurt gyros, and maybe they don't (I am not an authority, for sure). That being said, I would not want someone borrowing my airplane and spinning it unless they asked first.
 
You can spin a skyhawk without getting into the yellow arc on the ASI or getting over 2G's. Done smoothly the maneuver is quite gentle on the airframe. I've read in more than one place that gyro damage is a myth.

However its easy to muck it up and put more stress on the airframe than necessary, or hurl things all around the cockpit. I'm willing to bet you did this at least a little bit. Of course you are supposed to secure the cockpit, but i'm guessing a rental 172 has junk under the seats, all around etc..

If you really want to spin i'd recommend going up in a citabria or other aerobatic plane. Its more fun, and you don't have as much to worry about as the airplane is built to take the abuse of a new pilot learning how to spin. Spins are aerobatic, why not learn them in an aerobatic trainer?
 
Unregistered said:
But that is not what you implied.

Also for those that think spinning an approved airplane, at altitude, with a knowledge of recovery technique will lead to a smoking crater; do you really? How about that it will lead to doing maneuvers that the airplane is not designed to handle? Why would you make that assumption?
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I think you'll find that for an aircraft approved for any aerobatic maneuver (including spins) the expectation is that any pilot performing said maneuvers either knows how to execute the maneuver or knows how to avoid any mistakes that could lead to overstressing the airplane unless the pilot flies with someone else who already has this knowledge. The notion that just because the FAA has said that a 172 may be spun if the weight and CG are inside the utility category limits, spinning the airplane is without risk is stretching the FAA's capabilities and intent quite a bit.

It is true that spins aren't particularly risky or stressful to the aircraft if performed properly but there are several issues that I think you are glossing over. One is that without a g meter I really doubt that you have the ability to determine whether or not you are remaining within the +4.4/-1.76 g airframe limit during a botched recovery from a well developed spin. Another is the serious potential for confusion if you manage to get yourself into an inverted spin. I do agree that neither of those issues are likely in your case but I also believe the chances are greater than you might expect.

Also you may find that if you manage to get the airplane to make more than a few rotations it may become more reluctant to stop spinning. Airplanes certified as "aerobatic" are required to demonstrate the ability to recover a spin after something like 6 turns but AFaIK to gain approval for intentional spins in the Utility category nothing beyond a 3 turn spin need be tested. I have personal experience flying airplanes that are "approved for spins" that can easily require several thousand feet of altitude to recover a fully developed spin (with proper recovery techniques) so while I agree the 172 happens to be pretty benign in this regard, just the fact that it's approved for spins does not imply that it's safe when spinning under all circumstances. For instance, did you know that the approval only extends to spins entered during "slow deceleration"?

There's another concern here (already expressed by others) that may or may not be true in your case, the notion that if your current belief that teaching yourself to spin a 172 is safe is extended to other areas that although they are not specifically prohibited (e.g. a split S in a Beech E33C) you could indeed easily end up co-located with a smoking crater. If you don't see some unnecessary risk with your self taught spins or can't honestly say you wouldn't consider trying other even more risky endeavors without proper preparation (i.e training) then I suspect that concern may be well founded.
 
Tonight's contest: How many of the Five Hazardous Attitudes is the OP displaying?

One additional point for identifying each statement s/he's made that goes with each Hazardous Attitude displayed.

Bonus question: What's the over/under for how many flight hours before s/he is killed in an airplane?
 
Good rule-of-thumb: if you feel the need to hide your real identity behind an "anonymous" post, it's probably, not definitely, but probably, a bad idea.
 
Ron Levy said:
Tonight's contest: How many of the Five Hazardous Attitudes is the OP displaying?

One additional point for identifying each statement s/he's made that goes with each Hazardous Attitude displayed.

Bonus question: What's the over/under for how many flight hours before s/he is killed in an airplane?
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Potentially Hazardous.

I can name at least ten famous aviators who are still alive and writing memoirs who displayed all five at the same time, and wrote books about their adventures.

Calling them Hazardous without any data to back that up is non-scientific.

I'm on a "correlation does not equal causality" kick lately. Show proof that someone with so-called Hazardous Attitudes will crash an aircraft. Prove that it was the Hazardous Attitude and not a gap in their Instruction.

No one can.
 
gismo said:
?.... Airplanes certified as "aerobatic" are required to demonstrate the ability to recover a spin after something like 6 turns but AFaIK to gain approval for intentional spins in the Utility category nothing beyond a 3 turn spin need be tested...... For instance, did you know that the approval only extends to spins entered during "slow deceleration"? ...
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I generally agree with you however:
- certification requirements for intentional spinning is the same whether the airplane is in utility or aerobatic category
- the standard statement in flight manuals about "slow deceleration" is not a limitation of the approval

It's times like this when I am glad to be in Australia where training is required for a spin endorsement.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm on a "correlation does not equal causality" kick lately.
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Good luck with that. Most people that read that won't even understand what you mean, much less weed the logical falacy from their analytical process.
 
djpacro said:
I generally agree with you however:
- certification requirements for intentional spinning is the same whether the airplane is in utility or aerobatic category
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I was working from (an ancient memory) so I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I read something about this difference (3 turns vs 6 turns).

- the standard statement in flight manuals about "slow deceleration" is not a limitation of the approval
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I believe this is a limitation since it's in the TCDS for the airplane.

It's times like this when I am glad to be in Australia where training is required for a spin endorsement.
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What really amazes me is that although spin training is required for a CFI certificate there's little in the way of any specifics for that and can be obtained from another CFI who's only exposure to spins was one or two recoveries from a partially developed spin entered deliberately in an airplane with benign spin characteristics.
 
So, why doesn't the OP hire an instructor to fly with him and provide advice as he practices spins in an airplane that the owner allows students to spin?

I see nothing wrong with wanting to learn.
 
OP, from someone who had gotten more than their fair share of POA, ah, educational responses to, um, learning posts, I will say: try your best to ignore them. They are really good it, those that do it, so they tend to get under your skin. Bite hard, move on.

At least you posted anonymously, I did mine with my actual username... which had subsequently led to many inspiring comments about my character and intelligence such as you may find in my signature.

As to your actual post: pretty cool, yo. I have toyed with the idea myself but am too scared of it, so instead I am trying to find the time, instructor and plane to do it "the proper way"... which always seems to stay on my "to do" list but never gets done. If you don't mind sharing, I am curious as to what led you to cross the spinfear boundary. Fearing spins was drilled into me in training so hard that I think in some perverse sense it makes me less safe; if I ever get into one, I might very well be so frozen I would not be able to respond even if I know, in theory, what to do. People die in car crashes all the time because of this one issue of never having "been" in an incipient crash, so even though they know they should, for example, cut the wheel their hands freeze in the moment.
 
AuntPeggy said:
So, why doesn't the OP hire an instructor to fly with him and provide advice as he practices spins in an airplane that the owner allows students to spin?

I see nothing wrong with wanting to learn.
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Hate to say it, but he's probably now just as well off by "teaching" himself than he would be if he had gotten with your average CFI whoes spin experience is limited to a spin endorsement, which is pretty much a joke if you consider it to mean that the CFI has comprehensive instructional knowledge and experience with spins....it does not. He would need to receive instruction from a respected advanced spin instructor to gain complete proficiency, knowledge, and experience on the subject of spins.

The only difference between what he did on his own, and getting with your average CFI for "spin training", is that he was a little more likely to kill himself on his first attempt than if he'd gotten with a CFI. He's past that now. His attitude is still not one that should be admired as a pilot, but he is where he is. He would now gain nothing from receiving spin training from your average CFI. That being said, he still doesn't know squat about spins. But most CFI's don't either.
 
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RoscoeT said:
Hate to say it, but he's probably now just as well off by "teaching" himself than he would be if he had gotten with your average CFI whoes spin experience is limited to a spin endorsement, which is pretty much a joke if you consider it to mean that the CFI has comprehensive instructional knowledge and experience with spins....it does not. He would need to receive instruction from a respected advanced spin instructor to gain complete proficiency, knowledge, and experience on the subject of spins.

The only difference between what he did on his own, and getting with your average CFI for "spin training", is that he was a little more likely to kill himself on his first attempt than if he'd gotten with a CFI. He's past that now. His attitude is still not one that should be admired as a pilot, but he is where he is. He would now gain nothing from receiving spin training from your average CFI. That being said, he still doesn't know squat about spins. But most CFI's don't either.
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Point taken. When Hubby was working toward his CFI, his own instructor told him to go elsewhere for spin training. He then went up (several times) with an experienced trainer and they both had a ball. They rented a plane that the owner rents for just this purpose. They did not fly MY airplane. I'm hoping that the OP would have just the same kind of experience.

So, to amend my question, why doesn't the OP find an experienced, competent, and enthusiastic CFI to teach him spin training in an airplane that the owner allows to be spun?

In fact, if he is anywhere near White Plains, Danbury, Bridgeport, I can recommend a person and plane.
 
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AuntPeggy said:
Point taken. When Hubby was working toward his CFI, his own instructor told him to go elsewhere for spin training. He then went up (several times) with an experienced trainer and they both had a ball. They rented a plane that the owner rents for just this purpose. They did not fly MY airplane. I'm hoping that the OP would have just the same kind of experience.

So, to amend my question, why doesn't the OP find an experienced, competent, and enthusiastic CFI to teach him spin training in an airplane that the owner allows to be spun?

In fact, if he is anywhere near White Plains, Danbury, Bridgeport, I can recommend a person and plane.
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Perhaps because in many locales that's hard to find.
 
onwards said:
OP, from someone who had gotten more than their fair share of POA, ah, educational responses to, um, learning posts, I will say: try your best to ignore them. They are really good it, those that do it, so they tend to get under your skin. Bite hard, move on.

At least you posted anonymously, I did mine with my actual username... which had subsequently led to many inspiring comments about my character and intelligence such as you may find in my signature.

As to your actual post: pretty cool, yo. I have toyed with the idea myself but am too scared of it, so instead I am trying to find the time, instructor and plane to do it "the proper way"... which always seems to stay on my "to do" list but never gets done. If you don't mind sharing, I am curious as to what led you to cross the spinfear boundary. Fearing spins was drilled into me in training so hard that I think in some perverse sense it makes me less safe; if I ever get into one, I might very well be so frozen I would not be able to respond even if I know, in theory, what to do. People die in car crashes all the time because of this one issue of never having "been" in an incipient crash, so even though they know they should, for example, cut the wheel their hands freeze in the moment.
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Not looking to be thought "cool" in any way. I was practicing stalls and figured it was a good time to try a spin. I am not afraid of flying an airplane. I also respect the airplane even if some here think I do not respect the owner. I also find it kind of silly that a position that I can easily find the airplane in following a stall is one that most CFIs that I know do not teach you how to recover from. It ain't rocket surgery. I respect RoscoeT's words although he is upset that someone that tried a few spins on their own would think they are now aerobatic pilots or something. Did I say that anywhere. OK, I don't know squat. If I do 50 more and get pretty good at a spin from slow deceleration and can recover to a heading would you then say I know at least a little bit? I'll get right on it. LOL

Onwards, there is nothing to fear but you do not need to do it my way and should not. Do it the right way :)
 
Ron Levy said:
It is not a myth, no matter what you read. Only way to avoid that is to have a cageable gyro like we had in the T-34's at Saufley Field. Part of the acrobatic checklist was caging the gyros.
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Cited proof from an instrument repair shop that supports your claim? At least the link provided had a shop stating their opinion contrary to your stance. Or is this another Ron says so therefore we should blindly believe him post?
 
Try it from another angle

If the owner has any concerns, no matter how irrational, it is not your right to override his wishes. To do so is unethical, and to feel justified doing so is arrogant (even if the owner is wrong about the underlying concern).

Edit for clarity: This is not in response to EdFred, or any other specific post, but rather to the general theme of the debate.
 
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Another point to be made:

Renters, owners see posts like the OPs and it's a significant turn-off for placing anything into a leaseback arrangement -- for any owners even considering such a thing.

Many leasebacks are money-losers anyway, but factor in a few posts like the OP, even a profit isn't worth actual risk of aircraft damage from a renter who didn't or won't ask for the desired policy.

If the attitude by even ONE pilot renting the aircraft is that it's "just a rental", expect claptrap garbage on the rental line, or alternatively the really nice aircraft will be purposely expensive.

Or as the old parenting phrase/joke goes...

"This is why we can't have nice things." ;)
 
denverpilot said:
If the attitude by even ONE pilot renting the aircraft is that it's "just a rental", expect claptrap garbage on the rental line, or alternatively the really nice aircraft will be purposely expensive.

Or as the old parenting phrase/joke goes...

"This is why we can't have nice things." ;)
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With the technology getting really advanced and inexpensive, I would expect to see small versions of flight data recorders in just about every rental airplane within a few years. After a flight, or maybe in real time during a flight, the owner could see what the pilot did with his airplane and such stuff as unauthorized aerobatics or buzz jobs or landings at forbidden strips would disqualify the renter from any further business. His reputation would travel ahead of him, too. And he might face enforcement actions.

Dan
 
If the original poster would just have asked for help in keeping the spin going in the airplane, none of this debate would have ensued.

He added, however, the decision making skillset that led up to his spinning of the aircraft, which I believe to be lacking or downright faulty.

First, he decides to try to spin the aircraft without any instruction in the procedures other than reading about it or listening to someone about it.

Second, he decides to do this in an airplane that is not his own, doesn't ask permission, and pretty much does what he wants with the aircraft regardless of the rules or desires of the owner or manager.

Third, he professes to have no problem "learning extreme sports" on his own, without any instruction or example. How much aerobatics is he willing to explore?

While what he did is not, in and of itself, necessarily dangerous or difficult, the decision making process he used to get there is flawed and needs a little tweaking.

Using the proper aircraft and under the proper circumstances, "extreme" sports, aka, areobatics in this case, is fun, reasonably safe, and does no harm.

Original poster, how much more are you willing to do without instruction and without telling the owners? Are you willing to do rolls? Inverted maneuvers? Hammerheads? Do yourself and the aircraft owners a favor and check with them before executing out of the ordinary flight. This is the biggest reason my aircraft will never be on leaseback.
 
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I'd just like to point out that the plane is approved for spins and the POH tells you how to do them. It's not smart to go spin the plane withno instruction but we don't necessarily need to assume he will be doing barrel rolls in the rental next week
 
dell30rb said:
...but we don't necessarily need to assume he will be doing barrel rolls in the rental next week
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Don't be so sure of that. Spins will soon seem tame and new risks will be necessary to an adrenalin junkie. Rules don't matter here, right?

Dan
 
dell30rb said:
I'd just like to point out that the plane is approved for spins and the POH tells you how to do them. It's not smart to go spin the plane withno instruction but we don't necessarily need to assume he will be doing barrel rolls in the rental next week
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My POH talks about spin recovery, but not how to get into one. YMMV, mine is a restart version.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My POH talks about spin recovery, but not how to get into one. YMMV, mine is a restart version.
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We had a 2006 model. It could not be spun unless we took the rear seat out. The restarts were so much heavier (the seats, too) and with all that Garmin G1000 stuff under the baggage shelf, the airplane would not balance in the utility category with the rear seat installed. And spins are illegal unless it's in that category.

Dan
 
denverpilot said:
Potentially Hazardous.

I can name at least ten famous aviators who are still alive and writing memoirs who displayed all five at the same time, and wrote books about their adventures.

Calling them Hazardous without any data to back that up is non-scientific.

I'm on a "correlation does not equal causality" kick lately. Show proof that someone with so-called Hazardous Attitudes will crash an aircraft. Prove that it was the Hazardous Attitude and not a gap in their Instruction.

No one can.
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Fine... You fly with him/her...

I can see you with your pad and pencil in hand, going over your calculations, thinking, "Hmm, that wasn't in the numbers" as you're swinging under a parachute . :D
 
dell30rb said:
I'd just like to point out that the plane is approved for spins and the POH tells you how to do them. It's not smart to go spin the plane withno instruction but we don't necessarily need to assume he will be doing barrel rolls in the rental next week
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Maybe yes, maybe no. Depends on whether he's seen the video "How to do a barrel roll."

- jkw (we hope that he read the magazine article, at least) (it appeared in "Mercenary" IIRC).
 
Unregistered said:
I let the airplane stall, power off, and when one wing dropped, I hit full rudder on that side, usually the left side but not always, I think. The airplane would enter a spin but often would fly out of it or transition to a spiral perhaps within a half turn. Recovery was no big deal.
My question is how do I hold it in a spin? .
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Your experience makes it sound like you were in an M, (1975 or later) model Cessna 172 with the reflexed leading edge. If so, then you could have been more successful at it if you'd talked to a pilot or instructor who had had experiejce with that make and model.
 
On that airplane (forward CG) you have to hold pro spin aileron. But do it with an instructor with specific spin experience in that model (M or later). Sadly, the reflex muscle of pilots not well versed is spin, is to try to raise the down wing with aileron- which is actually pro spin. Sigh.
 
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I hope you aren't renting one of my planes, I have big wrenches, not afraid to hit a renter with one who spins one of my planes without instruction.

My personal plane? Even if it were spinable you would die a slow, painful death if I'd lent you the plane and you spun without permission.


True story
 
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