Spins

stingray

stingray

Line Up and Wait
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Jan 15, 2007
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Grantsburg WI
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Daniel Michaels
I started SP CFI ground school today. So many things I had already forgotten. Not so much theories as words and definitions.

I never did do any spin training and something came up that I was not aware of. I always thought a spin was a flat pancake type motion. nose level or nearly so. The instructor showed more of a spiral type flight with the nose going almost straight down or more so than level. He asked then how would I get out of the spin. I said reduce power, release controls, and opposite rudder control full forward. Until when he said. Until spin stops then full power pull out. He said opposite rudder only enough stop the spin but not so much as to spin the other way. This kinda through me because I figured once the spin stopped and the nose was pointed down we would be going faster than stall speed so how could we spin the other way. That would just be a spiral and I do them all the time.

We decided to go up for some spins in the 150 on a later date. It would be nice to understand them a little more though.

Dan
 
stingray said:
I started SP CFI ground school today. So many things I had already forgotten. Not so much theories as words and definitions.

I never did do any spin training and something came up that I was not aware of. I always thought a spin was a flat pancake type motion. nose level or nearly so. The instructor showed more of a spiral type flight with the nose going almost straight down or more so than level. He asked then how would I get out of the spin. I said reduce power, release controls, and opposite rudder control full forward. Until when he said. Until spin stops then full power pull out. He said opposite rudder only enough stop the spin but not so much as to spin the other way. This kinda through me because I figured once the spin stopped and the nose was pointed down we would be going faster than stall speed so how could we spin the other way. That would just be a spiral and I do them all the time.

We decided to go up for some spins in the 150 on a later date. It would be nice to understand them a little more though.

Dan
Click to expand...


You are right -- once the stall is broken (remember, even though the nose appears to be pointed "straight down" during a spin, you're in a stalled condition), you will rapidly build up flying speed due to gravity.

You'll eventually need to add power (since you're at idle) as you recover from the dive, but that step isn't listed as part of the NASA "Stall Recovery Sequence" -- see Advisory Circular 61-67B)

Use the Mnemonic "PARE" and you'll be good to go:

1. Power--Idle.
2. Ailerons--Neutralize (& Flaps "up")
3. Rudder--Apply fully opposite to the direction of yaw.
4. Elevator--Push through neutral

Hold These Inputs Until Rotation Stops, Then:

5. Rudder--Neutralize
6. Elevator--Easy pull to straight and level
​
Once you've restablished normal flight attitude, then add power as needed.
 
I was trained to use the technique Dan posted. That is the generic technique that works in most airplanes. If your POH says differently, do it as the book says.

A couple of things about that technique and your post.


  • "Release the controls" is a bit overstated. The Mueller/Beggs technique is a bit more than that and only works in some airplanes.
  • The forward through neutral, again works in many airplanes. Those that have a tendency to flat spin need much more aggressive elevator input.
  • Bruce is (as usual) correct that power shouldn't be added until you recover from the resulting dive.
The Wiki article on spins is exceptional, reads like it was written by Rich Stowell.

Joe
 
The best demonstration/illustration of how the wing behaves in a spin can be found in a documentary movie from the early-80's. The author Richard Bach and a friend barnstormed around the US in a pair of Fleet biplanes. They stopped in a hayfield somewhere in the midwest to give rides. Flares were attached the the lower wingtips of one of the aircraft and the aircraft took off and flew various aerobatic maneuvers. This was all filmed from the second aircraft. The aircraft with the flares enters a spin. The smoke from the flares on the outside (flying) wing spirals around the center of rotation (insided wingtip) while the smoke from the stalled wing (inside wing) waifts upward.
 
stingray said:
We decided to go up for some spins in the 150 on a later date. It would be nice to understand them a little more though.

Dan
Click to expand...

If you really want to understand spins, go seek out an experienced aerobatic instructor with a capable aircraft. A comprehensive spin course is going to include upright normal, flat, and accelerated spins; inverted normal and flat spins; and cross-over spins. After an education like that, you'll be more confident, relaxed, and in the best position to be a good and safe instructor yourself. You're not likely to get that kind of education (nor in my opinion should you want to) from someone who's as inexperienced as most CFI's are at spins and upset/recovery.

Look on the IAC website for the list of aerobatic instructors near you:

http://www.iac.org/begin/schools.html

The best of that entire list is Bill Finagin, Dent-Air in Annapolis Maryland.
 
I put those files into a folder for my continued education and eventual teaching.

So as I watched the video they were pointed toward the ground. He or she was holding it in a spin though. So as long as the plane is spinning first you will get no airflow over the wing no matter how fast you are headed down. Once the rotation stops the airflow reconnects and you have lift. So Bruce's point is you could be going much faster than stall speed which gives you plenty of time to add power. I can see how this is something you need to be sitting in the plane to get a good understanding. Not unlike the plane on a treadmill. Once you do it, it is so clear.

Dan
 
Does anyone know of a video of a 'normal' spin from OUTSIDE the cockpit - such as from a spot plane? I've seen videos from inside the cockpit and I've even done them myself, but I think an outside picture of the actual airplane attitude would help understand a bit more about what's going on, etc.
 
stingray said:
I started SP CFI ground school today. So many things I had already forgotten. Not so much theories as words and definitions.

I never did do any spin training and something came up that I was not aware of. I always thought a spin was a flat pancake type motion. nose level or nearly so. The instructor showed more of a spiral type flight with the nose going almost straight down or more so than level. He asked then how would I get out of the spin. I said reduce power, release controls, and opposite rudder control full forward. Until when he said. Until spin stops then full power pull out. He said opposite rudder only enough stop the spin but not so much as to spin the other way. This kinda through me because I figured once the spin stopped and the nose was pointed down we would be going faster than stall speed so how could we spin the other way. That would just be a spiral and I do them all the time.

We decided to go up for some spins in the 150 on a later date. It would be nice to understand them a little more though.

Dan
Click to expand...

Power off, neutral ailerons. Rudder to stop the rotation, ease the wheel forward.

You shouldn't need full forward. In some aircraft pushing while still rotating is a recipe for an accelerated (flat) spin from which recovery is much more difficult. I suspect that the reason for at least some fatal spin accidents is the application of forward stick too soon - if you get into an accelerated spin in some aircraft the rudder isn't ever going to stop the rotation as long as the stick is forward (or power is on)
 
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CJones said:
Does anyone know of a video of a 'normal' spin from OUTSIDE the cockpit - such as from a spot plane? I've seen videos from inside the cockpit and I've even done them myself, but I think an outside picture of the actual airplane attitude would help understand a bit more about what's going on, etc.
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaIt7ybwEe8 T6 inside and outside - watch this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alz2dJa2-o4 and ultralight filmed from the ground

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsgH7GVN5xQ&feature=related 172 from inside and outside (not sure if it is the same aircraft)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUB4fpC7by8&feature=related King Schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwT2CIpyKmw Starduster with camera on the fin.

Enough?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaIt7ybwEe8 T6 inside and outside - watch this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alz2dJa2-o4 and ultralight filmed from the ground

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsgH7GVN5xQ&feature=related 172 from inside and outside (not sure if it is the same aircraft)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUB4fpC7by8&feature=related King Schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwT2CIpyKmw Starduster with camera on the fin.

Enough?
Click to expand...

Perfect. Muchas gracias!
 
The T6 spin did not look like much fun.

I think I could handle the Starduster spin though.

Learned a little more, do not push yoke too far forward too fast or too soon.

Dan
 
CJones said:
Does anyone know of a video of a 'normal' spin from OUTSIDE the cockpit - such as from a spot plane? I've seen videos from inside the cockpit and I've even done them myself, but I think an outside picture of the actual airplane attitude would help understand a bit more about what's going on, etc.
Click to expand...

There's that great shot of the Pitts doing an inverted spin in One Six Right...
 
stingray said:
The T6 spin did not look like much fun.

I think I could handle the Starduster spin though.

Learned a little more, do not push yoke too far forward too fast or too soon.

Dan
Click to expand...

And don't hold it forward too long. I think it's common for pilots to hold the stick forward well beyond the time it takes to break the stall and as a result they spend excessive time with the nose pointed at the ground building up speed.

You need to think in terms of AoA, break the stall by reducing AoA and then as soon as possible achieve the AoA that provides around 2gs of lift or is a couple degrees shy of max lift, whichever is less AoA.
 
One of the best books on the subject of spins is by Bill Kirschner. Kirschner also has probly the best documentation of spins in a general aviation aircraft (C152 Aerobat).

The Basic Aerobatic Manual
This manual is designed to serve as a reference guide for flyers enrolled in introductory aerobatics courses. Though the manual emphasizes airspeeds and techniques recommended for the Cessna Aeroba..... read more

Ordering Information The Basic Aerobatic Manual Item Number: M830A SPORTYS Price: $34.95
 
stingray said:
The instructor showed more of a spiral type flight with the nose going almost straight down or more so than level. He asked then how would I get out of the spin.
Click to expand...
When I'm teaching that spin endorsement training module, I usually try to cover that stuff on the ground before flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
When I'm teaching that spin endorsement training module, I usually try to cover that stuff on the ground before flight.
Click to expand...

We were in the classroom. I have yet to try a spin in the plane. I do not have to for SP CFI, but he thought I might want to at some point.

Dan
 
stingray said:
We were in the classroom. I have yet to try a spin in the plane. I do not have to for SP CFI, but he thought I might want to at some point.

Dan
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that some form of spin training was required for SP-CFI.
 
It's really WEAK. Says, "log ground and flight training....." and nothing about "instructional" knowledge of spins, and spin recovery.....
 
bbchien said:
It's really WEAK. Says, "log ground and flight training....." and nothing about "instructional" knowledge of spins, and spin recovery.....
Click to expand...

My understanding was that it was not supposed to be as rigorous as a regular CFI.

I will never dispute the fact that all pilots should get specialized training for the flying they do. If you plan on doing a lot of "on the edge type of flying" you should go get upset training. For the "weekend hamburger run" controlled flight is adequate. For "cross country" some extra weather and ADM training is a good start. I don't think training should ever stop, it should be part of a yearly goal to learn something new each year if not just get better at something already learned.

Dan
 
gismo said:
I was under the impression that some form of spin training was required for SP-CFI.
Click to expand...
...and to add to Ron's comment, the endorsement specified in AC 61-65E for the CFI-SP is subtly different from the one required for other CFIs. Make sure the instructor who signs you off uses the correct one.

If I didn't have to do it, I wouldn't have.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Diana may have some home grown videos.
Click to expand...

Here's a couple of clips of spins as seen from the ground:

http://vimeo.com/3199427

http://vimeo.com/3195650

A few spins as viewed from a Swift nearby:

http://vimeo.com/3406633

A video of spins as seen from inside looking forward:

http://vimeo.com/3250971

What a few spins look like when you are inside and look out at the wing (not recommended as a place for the PIC to look, but someone asked for this view).

http://vimeo.com/3433666

And a competition spin when I took Marty Beville for his first aerobatic ride a few months ago:

http://vimeo.com/3378756

I have a few more somewhere.
 
bbchien said:
It's really WEAK. Says, "log ground and flight training....." and nothing about "instructional" knowledge of spins, and spin recovery.....
Click to expand...
Actually, Ron's slightly off. The relevant section is 61.405(b)(1)(ii):

61.405 - What tests do I have to take to obtain a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating?

(b) Practical test. (1) Before you take the practical test, you must [...] (ii) If you are seeking privileges to provide instruction in an airplane or glider, receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that you are competent and possess instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after you have received flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; [...]
Click to expand...
(Emphasis mine). While 61.409(m) as worded might let you skate out of actually doing it, this section does not.
 
stingray said:
My understanding was that it was not supposed to be as rigorous as a regular CFI.
Click to expand...
This is not correct. Ron will disagree, but I believe a CFI-SP should be taught to the same standards as a CFI-A for those elements required for sport pilot, and I fully expect to be tested to those same standards when I go for my checkride in a few weeks. There are some maneuvers and some knowledge areas that do not apply to a sport pilot (and, therefore a CFI-SP), but what's there is almost entirely the same, differing only in minor details.
 
Diana on the 4 1/2 turn spin what is the airspeed as you stop rotating or is there too much going on to look at it?

Dan
 
jmaynard said:
This is not correct. Ron will disagree, but I believe a CFI-SP should be taught to the same standards as a CFI-A for those elements required for sport pilot, and I fully expect to be tested to those same standards when I go for my checkride in a few weeks. There are some maneuvers and some knowledge areas that do not apply to a sport pilot (and, therefore a CFI-SP), but what's there is almost entirely the same, differing only in minor details.
Click to expand...

That is exactally what the examiner told my CFI. I wonder if it has been changed from the begining. Or I just got misinformation from an article or other source. Airspace and navigation was excluded also so I suppose I need to go back and find out if that is correct also.

Dan
 
stingray said:
That is exactally what the examiner told my CFI. I wonder if it has been changed from the begining. Or I just got misinformation from an article or other source.
Click to expand...
Good question. FWIW, I think it's a good thing that sport pilots are tested to the same standards as private pilots for those things in common, as it answers the occasional carping that claims sport pilots are somehow lesser pilots, or less safe, than "real" private pilots.

Airspace and navigation was excluded also so I suppose I need to go back and find out if that is correct also.
Click to expand...
Navigation has its own section in the PTS. While the PTS section on the national airspace system talks about sport pilot privileges relevant to the various classes and types of airspace, those privileges include using all of them if the appropriate endorsement is in the pilot's logbook, so there's not a lot of practical difference between sport and private pilots there either.
 
jmaynard said:
Good question. FWIW, I think it's a good thing that sport pilots are tested to the same standards as private pilots for those things in common, as it answers the occasional carping that claims sport pilots are somehow lesser pilots, or less safe, than "real" private pilots.


Navigation has its own section in the PTS. While the PTS section on the national airspace system talks about sport pilot privileges relevant to the various classes and types of airspace, those privileges include using all of them if the appropriate endorsement is in the pilot's logbook, so there's not a lot of practical difference between sport and private pilots there either.
Click to expand...

Yes for the last couple of hours I've had my head in the FAR book. I see that it is Class A that is excluded because 10,000 is the limit for LSA.

One other thing that came up is taking the regular CFI test for ground school rather than the SP version. I see that you can still give the SP signoffs with the regular version. This was another thing that my CFI said I could not do. He said I would have to take both tests if I wanted to get the regular Ground school CFI and SP. Reading carefully I see that the requirements for CFI SP is pass a test on the aeronautical knowledge areas for SP. Taking the regular GS would cover this.

Are you taking the regular or the SP version?

Dan
 
jmaynard said:
Actually, Ron's slightly off. The relevant section is 61.405(b)(1)(ii):


(Emphasis mine). While 61.409(m) as worded might let you skate out of actually doing it, this section does not.
Click to expand...

I found also that you have to have the training you just do not have to demonstrate it on the practical once you have the endorsement. Still up to the examiner and there are some other stipulations as well.

Dan
 
stingray said:
One other thing that came up is taking the regular CFI test for ground school rather than the SP version. I see that you can still give the SP signoffs with the regular version. This was another thing that my CFI said I could not do. He said I would have to take both tests if I wanted to get the regular Ground school CFI and SP. Reading carefully I see that the requirements for CFI SP is pass a test on the aeronautical knowledge areas for SP. Taking the regular GS would cover this.
Click to expand...
There is a separate CFI-SP ground school and knowledge test - Sport Instructor Airplane (SIA), instead of Flight Instructor Airplane (FIA). You need SIA to take the CFI-SP checkride. There are a very few things different between the two, and FIA will not work for CFI-SP.

As for ground instructor ratings (BGI or AGI), those allow you to give ground instruction and endorsements for sport as well as private. There is no separate sport pilot ground instructor rating.
 
Diana said:
I don't recall looking at the airspeed that time.
Click to expand...

IME, during the spin you will see between several mph below Vs to as much as 20 mph above Vs during the actual spin (prior to breaking out of the stall and spin) depending on the pitot location and the direction of spin. Once you stop the rotation and break the stall, the ASI will likely be very inaccurate as the speed builds quickly but I recall seeing something very close to Vs at the moment the rotation stops.
 
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