Spin Zone Removed - 3 Day Hiatus

Pilots Of America Management

Pilots Of America Management

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Pilots of America Management
Recently, the Management Council posted a general warning about the level of offensive rhetoric in the Spin Zone. After dealing with five violations of the Rules of Conduct in the Spin Zone in the last 12 hours, the Management Council has concluded that too many participants did not take that warning to heart. We have decided that a "time out" is necessary so that all Spin Zone posters can reflect on whether or not they wish to play by the rules. Therefore, the Spin Zone is closed for three days.

While the Spin Zone is closed, non-aviation related political, religious, or otherwise potentially controversial topics posted in other forums in violation of the rules for those forums will be deleted, and users who persist in posting inappropriate material will be subject to full site suspension.

If, when the Spin Zone reopens, all participants demonstrate a recommitment to the principles of civil discourse upon which this this site was founded, it will remain open. If this pervasive lack of self-discipline continues at the current level, the Management Council will eliminate that forum permanently because we are unwilling to continune spending the amount of time required to manage the misbehavior of the small but significant number of participants who do not abide by the rules.

Regards,

The Pilots of America Management Council
 
I think it would have been appropriate to give everyone notice it was going to closed, say six or twelve hours? I had just spent the better part of an hour researching and writing comparative issues on both tickets.

I understand the issues dealt with when someone crosses the line but why punish the entire group for the actions of a few?
 
KennyFlys said:
I understand the issues dealt with when someone crosses the line but why punish the entire group for the actions of a few?
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I'm inclined to agree.

Frankly, it's my view that if the Rules of Conduct were enforced in a uniform, objective, and transparent manner, we wouldn't see the kinds and volume of problems that prompted this measure. Alas, I am of the opinion that the above hasn't happened of late, and the subsequent issues are a result of the seemingly capricious and arbitrary nature of administrative actions taken against some of the participants in the SZ. I suppose these kinds of issues are bound to arise when enforcement measures aren't undertaken candidly.
 
I'd have to compare the reasoning to my own life as put forth by someone. I have a personal life I need to tend to. More importantly, that personal life revolves around my work which is tied to other issues on this board. If I lived primarily in the SZ, I'd never get much else done.

I think that was some of the thought process in the action taken. Some things do need to change. Some folks need to take a personal reflection and put things aside from time to time. I'm one of them. Short of that, the only area I really care about arguing politics will go by the wayside. I know of no other forum where views are allowed to stand unedited with exception of personal attacks of other forum members.

If we want the SZ to survive, we have to protect its integrity and that of each other.
 
AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!


I WANT MY SPINZONE! I mean it, man. I need it. Bad. Please help me. I'm shaking here. Need help. Please.

OK folks, you KNOW who you are, PLEASE lighten up a bit. Frankly, though I am shocked and in need of my fix, I commend the MC for calling a time out. I did note some extremely ****y, petty exchanges that were drifting from the point of whatever thread was there.

Let's all be civil out there. While opinions may be like ****oles, there's no reason to behave like an ****ole while voicing one's opinion. We're all brothers and sisters, all pilots, mostly all adults. Let's act like it.
 
KennyFlys said:
If we want the SZ to survive, we have to protect its integrity and that of each other.
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I agree. I also don't know of anywhere else to discuss politics online where the quality of the conversation is so high and tone is so tame. I think it's absolutely something we should do our best to take care of... my hope is that the MC will join us in doing so.
 
I rarely, if ever go, but I am going to guess that one forum causes 85% of moderator grief.
Give yourselves a nice holiday and close it permanently! ...there are NO END of other places on the net set up specifically for that stuff! POA seems like it was sort of meant for aviation to me!
 
I enjoy reading the SZ and actually have learned quite a bit by just sitting back and observing/reading. I know there have been issues before, but for it to get ratcheted up to the point of actually making it go away all of a sudden - it would be a shame. The majority shouldn't be punished by the acts of the few.

What changed practically overnight for the tone to get so bad?
 
woodstock said:
I enjoy reading the SZ and actually have learned quite a bit by just sitting back and observing/reading.
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Same here.

woodstock said:
The majority shouldn't be punished by the acts of the few.
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Exactly.

woodstock said:
What changed practically overnight for the tone to get so bad?
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I think it's the heated opinions about the upcoming election plus some bad chemistry among a few of the posters. I don't think it has gotten bad overnight, though. It goes through spells. I manage to sit on my hands when I want to make some kind of snarky comment. It would be nice if other people would too.
 
Seems to me that if individual consequences were imposed and enforced this bit of kindergarten punishment wouldn't be necessary, but what do I know?

If you saw "five" infractions, then impose five suspensions. End of story.

Either way I could care less, but in an endeavor to...(what?) you have created more grief and work for yourselves.

As for closing it permanently...well, you know what happens then. That move worked SOOOO well on the red board :no: You have already labeled it, hidden it, made it almost impossible to join it. Next we will need a secret swipe card and a special 64 bit password. Whatever.

Someone else here needs to lighten up, and it ain't necessarily those posting in the spin zone.

That being said...thanks for your volunteer work MC:blowingkisses:
 
Someone who frequents the SZ commented to me recently that the conversations there were more civilized than some that we've seen in the past month or so in the main sections of the board. That doesn't seem to jive with the shutting down of the SZ.

I want to commend the MC for slogging through the complaints received on both sides of the house. I'm certain it's a thankless task, for which I hereby thank you! :)

I'll agree with others, though, that the actions of a few shouldn't impinge on the many. Maybe providing a long-term time-out for offenders would calm things down and maintain a manageable workload?
 
As someone that hardly, if ever, enters the SZ my opinion isn't worth squat. That said, I'll give it anyway. :)

I'm with the others that say punish the few, not the many. Suspend the offenders and not the vehicle of the offenses. This is somewhat like ticketing a car for speeding instead of ticketing the driver who was causing the car to speed.
 
FlyNE said:
As someone that hardly, if ever, enters the SZ my opinion isn't worth squat. That said, I'll give it anyway. :)

I'm with the others that say punish the few, not the many. Suspend the offenders and not the vehicle of the offenses. This is somewhat like ticketing a car for speeding instead of ticketing the driver who was causing the car to speed.
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I also don't read SZ any more, but I can see the Management Council's point. It's kinda like that old joke about a guy being hired to train a mule. He's asked why he brought a two-by-four, and the answer is, "To get the mule's attention."

Locking out one or two folks doesn't get people's attention. No one thinks *their* behavior is contributing to the problem; they think "well, those two guys probably deserved it" and continue with what they've been doing.

But shutting it off for EVERYBODY gets people thinking about it, and more aware that their COLLECTIVE behavior is putting the feature at-risk.

Plus, of course, if they lock out one or two people, the arguments are never ending: "Why is Joe's behavior considered worse than Bill's?" and the inevitable claim that the person is being locked out for their political beliefs, not their behavior.

Ron "'pour encourager les autres'" Wanttaja
 
alaskaflyer said:
Seems to me that if individual consequences were imposed and enforced this bit of kindergarten punishment wouldn't be necessary, but what do I know?

If you saw "five" infractions, then impose five suspensions. End of story.
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I agree wholeheartedly. When management punishes everyone for the acts of a few moral suffers.
 
You're going to close a discussion of politics in the middle of a convention?
(shakes head ruefully)
They're only words, for heaven's sake.
 
wanttaja said:
I also don't read SZ any more, but I can see the Management Council's point. It's kinda like that old joke about a guy being hired to train a mule. He's asked why he brought a two-by-four, and the answer is, "To get the mule's attention."

Locking out one or two folks doesn't get people's attention. No one thinks *their* behavior is contributing to the problem; they think "well, those two guys probably deserved it" and continue with what they've been doing.

But shutting it off for EVERYBODY gets people thinking about it, and more aware that their COLLECTIVE behavior is putting the feature at-risk.

Plus, of course, if they lock out one or two people, the arguments are never ending: "Why is Joe's behavior considered worse than Bill's?" and the inevitable claim that the person is being locked out for their political beliefs, not their behavior.

Ron "'pour encourager les autres'" Wanttaja
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Then you keep suspending until you've hit all offenders.

I respectfully disagree that shutting it down for everybody gets people thinking about their own behavior. What it does is make them say "man, if only the other guy wasn't such a jack*#&, then I'd have my spin zone right now."
 
wanttaja said:
Locking out one or two folks doesn't get people's attention. No one thinks *their* behavior is contributing to the problem; they think "well, those two guys probably deserved it" and continue with what they've been doing.

But shutting it off for EVERYBODY gets people thinking about it, and more aware that their COLLECTIVE behavior is putting the feature at-risk.
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I agree completely. It is the collective behavior. But as a non-SZ participant my opinion is worthless.

-Skip
 
After sleeping on it, I have revised my opinion.

Why kick us all out? If warnings and locked threads aren't enough, then how about public condemnation. A lot of times people are suspended, and I'm left scratching my head because they just disappear from the board. I don't know when and why they left.

Kick out the offenders, and tell folks who and why. It certainly would serve to highlight the offensive behavior so that others might avoid it.

The baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.

That being said, I know MC has somewhat of a thankless task. You can't please all the people all of the time. But in this case, I think the nuclear option should be reconsidered.

Humbly yours,

Andrew
 
flyersfan31 said:
Kick out the offenders, and tell folks who and why.
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(Emphasis mine.)

A great start would be if they'd tell the alleged "offenders" themselves why exactly they were suspended. I'm aware of at least one instance of "You broke the rules, but we're not going to tell you with anything even remotely resembling specificity when exactly you did or how exactly you did. Too bad if you don't like it, and if you ask any more questions, you'll get it even worse." That's like a football referee penalizing a team in the 4th quarter by saying, "You committed a penalty sometime in the 1st quarter, but we're not going to tell you what the penalty was, what play it occurred on, or anything else about it. It's 15 yards -- and 15 more if you don't like it."

That kind of behavior hardly engenders a sense of respect for the rules or the enforcement thereof, and I think that -- though they mostly do a good job -- perhaps the MC should have a look at its own practices before coming down the entirety of what is -- comparatively -- a very upstanding and enlightened group of people discussing politics.
 
ReverendSlappy said:
(Emphasis mine.)

A great start would be if they'd tell the alleged "offenders" themselves why exactly they were suspended. I'm aware of at least one instance of "You broke the rules, but we're not going to tell you with anything even remotely resembling specificity when exactly you did or how exactly you did. Too bad if you don't like it, and if you ask any more questions,
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I am aware of that one as well as another. I agree with your remarks.

The MC is human, well most of them I think ;) and they do make mistakes too. The whole Joe Williams fiasco is a prime example of how they let things go on far too long. I was away for most of this weekend and when I did catch up to what was going on I did notice a high level of snarkiness, but that was to be expected considering we are right in convention season where even the national parties are being snarky towards each other as well as the press. One has to ask the question is the SZ a reflection of us our of the mood of the country?

But I also saw a level of meanness, rude behavior, and general foulness by one person that had not ever been seen in the SZ by myself. It was the type of postings that is sure to bring upon PoA the type of action we have not seen since AvWeb vs. Wolk. So I hope the MC does take all of the actions that they need to before others have to.
 
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I think people know why they are banned. If they truly don't know, then perhaps a longer or permanent ban would be in order until they figure it out.

The MC isn't trying to act like the TSA taking action on a pilot certificate. They will tell you. But, your actions aren't likely to change if you don't reflect on the information given or even recognize your own actions and the values they portray.
 
smigaldi said:
But I also saw a level of meanness, rude behavior, and general foulness by one person that had not ever been seen in the SZ by myself. It was the type of postings that is sure to bring upon PoA the type of action we have not seen since AvWeb vs. Wolk. So I hope the MC does take all of the actions that they need to before others have to.
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I have to agree. There is personal/nasty, and then there is gratuitously hateful and disdainfully disrespectful. The posts you are talking about took my breath away.
 
smigaldi said:
But I also saw a level of meanness, rude behavior, and general foulness by one person that had not ever been seen in the SZ by myself. It was the type of postings that is sure to bring upon PoA the type of action we have not seen since AvWeb vs. Wolk.
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Yikes. I always miss that stuff.
 
As a non participant in SZ but a forum moderator where there can be some snarkiness I'll give my opinion. I know it's worthless.

Moderating forums is a well paid well respected job only in Bizzaro World. When a forum gets out of hand in this world it is a lot of unpleasant work. To keep reading posts of no interest to the moderator and banning people left and right is the worst kind of hell the job has to offer.

I can see why the MC did what they did.

Again, I don't go there so I couldn't care less about how it's run, and I'm sure nobody cares about my opinion.

Joe
 
KennyFlys said:
I think people know why they are banned.
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In most cases, I think you're right. But the one case that I'm familiar with, however, was particularly egregious; the MC refused even cite the post that was considered violative. Such basic information is de rigueur.

KennyFlys said:
If they truly don't know, then perhaps a longer or permanent ban would be in order until they figure it out.
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I'd point out that in cases like I mentioned above, it's pretty difficult for anybody to "figure it out" when they aren't even told what they did wrong. If changing somebody's behavior is the goal, a simple "This post was the one over the line" would suffice; the MC refused -- out-and-out refused -- to provide even that basic piece of information.

KennyFlys said:
The MC isn't trying to act like the TSA taking action on a pilot certificate. They will tell you.
Click to expand...

You might be surprised.

KennyFlys said:
But, your actions aren't likely to change if you don't reflect on the information given or even recognize your own actions and the values they portray.
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I agree 100%. Thing is, you gotta have that information first.
 
Don't post there much.

Read some but not all.

Think total closing is ridiculous.

But don't want the MC job so C'est La Vie.
 
The most significant improvement to the AOPA board has been the addition of the "Ignore Thread" option. Not only can you avoid being bogged down in the idiocy and hate mail, you don't even see the thread. It is truly like the tree falling in the forest. What noise?

So by selectively using both ignore functions, the a-holes can bang on each other to their heart's content and I never see any of their posts or any of their favorite whipping-boy threads. Is this a great country or what?

PS: Blood pressure monitors report signficant drop in hypertension as a result of this new polciy.

Pilots Of America Management said:
Recently, the Management Council posted a general warning about the level of offensive rhetoric in the Spin Zone. After dealing with five violations of the Rules of Conduct in the Spin Zone in the last 12 hours, the Management Council has concluded that too many participants did not take that warning to heart. We have decided that a "time out" is necessary so that all Spin Zone posters can reflect on whether or not they wish to play by the rules. Therefore, the Spin Zone is closed for three days.

While the Spin Zone is closed, non-aviation related political, religious, or otherwise potentially controversial topics posted in other forums in violation of the rules for those forums will be deleted, and users who persist in posting inappropriate material will be subject to full site suspension.

If, when the Spin Zone reopens, all participants demonstrate a recommitment to the principles of civil discourse upon which this this site was founded, it will remain open. If this pervasive lack of self-discipline continues at the current level, the Management Council will eliminate that forum permanently because we are unwilling to continune spending the amount of time required to manage the misbehavior of the small but significant number of participants who do not abide by the rules.

Regards,

The Pilots of America Management Council
Click to expand...
 
ReverendSlappy said:
In most cases, I think you're right. But the one case that I'm familiar with, however, was particularly egregious; the MC refused even cite the post that was considered violative. Such basic information is de rigueur.
Click to expand...

Wow, that must have happened when I was away from the Spin Zone for a while. That is shameful, and embarrassing to hear that the MC would pull that crap.

I know I wouldn't be happy if I got screwed by the MC, and they refused to say what I did wrong. I bet I know which moderator did it.
 
SkyHog said:
Wow, that must have happened when I was away from the Spin Zone for a while. That is shameful, and embarrassing to hear that the MC would pull that crap.

I know I wouldn't be happy if I got screwed by the MC, and they refused to say what I did wrong. I bet I know which moderator did it.
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Pure conjecture on my part but I seriously doubt one moderator can institute a ban. I suspect it is a committee decision but may be wrong.:dunno:
 
Eh...

...I am not really sure what purpose the Spin Zone serves anyway, and I think the idea of a "shock probation," to remind everybody there of their mutual responsibility for self-policing, is not a bad one.

The MC should not be placed in the position of having to baby-sit and assure compliance on an ongoing basis... it's a volunteer job.

Bottom-line: I'll defer to their judgment on the issue.
 
SCCutler said:
Eh...

...I am not really sure what purpose the Spin Zone serves anyway, and I think the idea of a "shock probation," to remind everybody there of their mutual responsibility for self-policing, is not a bad one.

The MC should not be placed in the position of having to baby-sit and assure compliance on an ongoing basis... it's a volunteer job.

Bottom-line: I'll defer to their judgment on the issue.
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Well said Spike. The MC is paid nothing and I can tell you that they put a lot of effort towards keeping this site friendly and stable. They are paid nothing-they receive nothing-and generally only hear the complaints of those that expect everything.

Personally, if it were my call, there would be no spin zone. Be thankful that it's not my call :)
 
jesse said:
Well said Spike. The MC is paid nothing and I can tell you that they put a lot of effort towards keeping this site friendly and stable. They are paid nothing-they receive nothing-and generally only hear the complaints of those that expect everything.
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Maybe the "effort" is directed chiefly to the "important" members.

jesse said:
Personally, if it were my call, there would be no spin zone. Be thankful that it's not my call :)
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Thankful? LOL! Whatever.
 
I think this is a strong message from the MC that SZ could be on its way out. In general I think most people are pretty good, but we do need to self police, stop the whining and be respectful of each other. I bear know ill will towards anybody here and enjoy the ocassional "heated" discussion, but remember guys its just a message board and its real mission is to discuss aviation not politics.
 
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Anthony said:
but remember guys its just a message board and its real mission is to discuss aviation not politics.
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I think it's real mission is to create community of pilots draw together by a common interest in aviation. PoA is pretty successful at that as evidenced by all the fly-ins we have. But to say it is an aviation board does a disservice to all of us. We talk about camera and photography, dogs, cat, bicycling, sports, books, movies, food, travel, kids, parents, cars, guns, and all kinds of other stuff. Politics is but one of many things that has the interest of some. The SZ is walled garden and many people do not wish to participate there and NO ONE is making them. I find it absolutely hilarious that people who never go there are calling for something they do not even see, to to go away if it were up to them.
 
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Totally agree Scott, on both posts. However, some people are just apolitical as like relgion, it sometimes brings out strong emotion in people.

Bottom line we need to police ourselves, respect each other and remember we are all pilots and that makes us have A LOT more in common than most.
 
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