Spin training

Spinning out of the clouds was a technique used by the airmail and barnstorming pilots in the old biplanes. It probably worked better in those draggy light planes.
 
jsstevens said:
Spinning out of the clouds was a technique used by the airmail and barnstorming pilots in the old biplanes. It probably worked better in those draggy light planes.
Click to expand...

Also those planes didn't likley have a single gyro in them.
 
Ravioli said:
OP said he's pre-solo. How about NO.

There's a time tested and true system of training pilots. Stick with that.
Click to expand...

I've been a CFI since '78 and have trained student pilots, not all but many, on spins in C152/172s. IMO it should be required training, possibly at the least have them demonstrated by a CFI. Spins are also a great confidence builder and one won't be intimidated by stalls anymore.
 
mscard88 said:
Do it! Well worth it.

Just don't scream like a girl though. ;)
Click to expand...
You mean, "don't be like the flight instructor that gave me my last flight review"? :)

I would agree on getting the spin training - if nothing else, it's fun.
 
Last edited:
labbadabba said:
Canada requires spin training for their PPL...
Click to expand...

Plus, why do we bother to teach pre solo guys stalls?

Spins are the natural evolution of the stall maneuver, not teaching spins is a result of the fact that ether your plane can't handle it, or your CFI can't handle it, both fixable, simply find a different plane or a different CFI, but only one is excusable.

Slow flight -> stalls -> falling leaf stalls -> spins
it's one whole lesson, with occasional review and fine tuning on following lessons.




jsstevens said:
Oh heck no. Tach (maybe), Altitude, Airspeed and a compass.
Click to expand...

So going IMC it's going to be interesting trying to keep straight and level with no gyros at all, thus a spin or stall depending on the plane might be your only real option

In most of the fleet, especially trainers, you normally have a full six pack, so the spin isn't the smartest move when equipped with three different gyros, infact its likley to require more of the pilot when compared to flying a simple AI through, or back out of a cloud.
 
James331 said:
Plus, why do we bother to teach pre solo guys stalls?

Spins are the natural evolution of the stall maneuver, not teaching spins is a result of the fact that ether your plane can't handle it, or your CFI can't handle it, both fixable, simply find a different plane or a different CFI, but only one is excusable.

Slow flight -> stalls -> falling leaf stalls -> spins
it's one whole lesson, with occasional review and fine tuning on following lessons.






So going IMC it's going to be interesting trying to keep straight and level with no gyros at all, thus a spin or stall depending on the plane might be your only real option

In most of the fleet, especially trainers, you normally have a full six pack, so the spin isn't the smartest move when equipped with three different gyros, infact its likley to require more of the pilot when compared to flying a simple AI through, or back out of a cloud.
Click to expand...

You'll get no argument from me. The current fleet of old trainers is far different from the 1920's fleet of planes that I was referencing. They are slicker (less drag) and far better equipped. I'd think keeping your hands in your lap and using your feet to pick up the dropped wing would be a better approach than spinning one of these.

Of course if you're a VFR pilot caught in IMC and already disoriented, try any thing you can think of but you're probably hosed.

John
 
jsstevens said:
Of course if you're a VFR pilot caught in IMC and already disoriented, try any thing you can think of but you're probably hosed.

John
Click to expand...

Or just let go! Many trainer type planes will recover from a spin without input from the pilot, as long as you have altitude and haven't allowed it to get really established.
 
mscard88 said:
Or just let go! Many trainer type planes will recover from a spin without input from the pilot, as long as you have altitude and haven't allowed it to get really established.
Click to expand...

Indeed. As you said if it's not really destabilized (or over speed) already. I suspect the biggest issue is you being destabilized and trying to fly straight and level by your inner ear and seat of the pants. I've never had "the leans" even in IMC (very limited experience) but it sounds like it takes a great deal of presence of mind to ignore.
 
jsstevens said:
I've never had "the leans" even in IMC (very limited experience) but it sounds like it takes a great deal of presence of mind to ignore.
Click to expand...

Not really as long as you've been trained to trust your scan and instrument indications.
 
jsstevens said:
Which is exactly what a VFR pilot in IMC is not...
Click to expand...

Not true! They've had some instrument training when they were a student. I had a woman student who, on a XC, flew into a cloud layer, got on the instruments and flew a 180* turn out of it. I understand and agree though what you're saying. Most VFR pilots don't retain proficiency (hell some IFR pilots too) enough that would keep them out of trouble.
 
mscard88 said:
Not true! They've had some instrument training when they were a student. I had a woman student who, on a XC, flew into a cloud layer, got on the instruments and flew a 180* turn out of it. I understand and agree though what you're saying. Most VFR pilots don't retain proficiency (hell some IFR pilots too) enough that would keep them out of trouble.
Click to expand...

I guess I transferred the discussion on this thread: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/emergencies-vfr-in-the-clouds.101211/

to this one on Spin Training. Ooops. I'll go file a ASRS report for the forum...
 
lolachampcar said:
If you ever get completely wadded up in IMC, the stall spin allows you to descend without hitting anything provided you stop before dirt level. Remember, you're unintentionally in IMC or otherwise disoriented so an upright spin is a known condition and, if you are used to it because you practice it all the time, an easy and simple condition to exit once you can see again.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't bother spinning, I'd just hold the stick fully aft with the ailerons and rudder neutral. You won't spin in that configuration, airspeed will be under control, and you'll be able to recover in significantly less time and altitude once you break out of the clouds compared to doing a spin. If I ever truly needed to do this, I'd want to optimize the altitude it takes to recover, considering the ceilings may be unknown. Spinning does sound more macho, though.
 
RoscoeT said:
I wouldn't bother spinning, I'd just hold the stick fully aft with the ailerons and rudder neutral. You won't spin in that configuration, airspeed will be under control, and you'll be able to recover more quickly with less altitude loss once you break out compared to doing a spin.
Click to expand...

Only if you start in straight and level flight. That's exactly the control input that gets you in a death spiral if you've already started to turn...
 
Man... Some o u gyz are NUTS! Spin outta the clouds? stall outta the clouds? Why not put on your Anti-Gravity boots and float out of the clouds... Just as likely....
 
jsstevens said:
Only if you start in straight and level flight. That's exactly the control input that gets you in a death spiral if you've already started to turn...
Click to expand...

Bank or no bank, most airplanes with enough elevator authority to stall the airplane will not "death spiral" if you hold the elevator fully aft. The trick is getting it fully aft before airspeed gets sufficiently out of hand to cause you to pull the wings off before you can get the elevator fully aft. You'd face the same issue entering a spin. At full aft elevator, the AOA and drag is too high to cause airspeed to get out of hand. The traditional "death spiral" in IMC does not involve full aft elevator...it involves airspeed getting out of hand, and the pilot coming back on the yoke until the wings come off. The airplane never stalls, and the elevator never makes it fully aft.
 
James331 said:
Then the gyro excuse is BS. That system is solid state, you ain't going to hurt Jack spinning it, minus maybe the backup steam AI, but you could even pull the breaker for that.
Click to expand...

The standby AI is vacuum.
 
So if the airplane is in a 45 or greater bank and I pull the elevator full aft, I've saved my ass and the airplane? COOL.. I'll remember that...:rolleyes:
 
FlySince9 said:
So if the airplane is in a 45 or greater bank and I pull the elevator full aft, I've saved my ass and the airplane? COOL.. I'll remember that...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

You'd rather disperse you and the airplane over the ground like confetti if faced with the worst case of IMC and no gyro instruments? Try and follow the point that is being made here.
 
RoscoeT said:
You'd rather disperse you and the airplane over the ground like confetti if faced with the worst case of IMC and no gyro instruments? Try and follow the point that is being made here.
Click to expand...
when did the "no gyro" scenario creep into the conversation....Missed that one...
 
FlySince9 said:
when did the "no gyro" scenario creep into the conversation....Missed that one...
Click to expand...

Post 41, but regardless, why else would you do this? I have a friend who once got boxed into IMC in a high performance non-gyro aerobatic airplane and only choice was to climb into it at max climb rate and try to break out on top. He broke out at 10K' with a solid undercast, no holes, and limited fuel. He flew on top for a bit, had to trust the ceiling from the nearest METAR reporting station, and pulled the power off, held the stick back, and did a falling leaf for about 8500' in the soup before breaking out. He could have easily spun it, but again...why?
 
He was in the clear when he started (knew he was starting from straight and level)Not the same scenario you started with... The whole scenario sounds like a fish story to me, but hey... Whatever....!
 
FlySince9 said:
He was in the clear when he started (knew he was starting from straight and level)Not the same scenario you started with... The whole scenario sounds like a fish story to me, but hey... Whatever....!
Click to expand...

You are missing the point and don't know crap.
 
Remember folks, my comment started from in IMC and screwed........... In short, you're already dead and I'm suggesting a way to get un-dead. I'm not suggesting you get yourself in the dead position in the first place.

As for stick back, never tried it but I will tomorrow :)
 
Look, as long as the AOA is functional just spin it down.
 
Moral of the story
Get a spin training
Don't put yourself in places where u have to spin out of clouds

Get an AOA


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
FlySince9 said:
Really? Are you really suggesting that a VFR pilot finding himself in IMC should spin out of the clouds? OMG! Yea, that's a great idea!
Click to expand...
Actually, I've heard this before: is it better to exist the clouds in an uncontrolled over speed spiral dive, or at slow speed and descent rate in a spin? I'd take the control in a spin knowing that I can exit the spin in less than 500 feet.
 
AcroBoy said:
Actually, I've heard this before: is it better to exist the clouds in an uncontrolled over speed spiral dive, or at slow speed and descent rate in a spin? I'd take the control in a spin knowing that I can exit the spin in less than 500 feet.
Click to expand...

How many spins have you done in IMC?

What if the deck is at 400 AGL?





Think I'll keep on teaching folks to fly the panel, and ether do a 180, failing that keep straight and level and get ATCs help,it's really not rocket surgery.
 
Absolutely fly the panel. Fix the problem the correct way. Do not get into the situation in the first place. and on and on and on

When you do find yourself in the soup and completely out of control, you MAY want to consider reaching up and pulling power then gently add up elevator until you run out of energy at which point you can kick the pedal of your choice. You picked the pedal so you know which foot to use at the end of the process. You are now in the absolute lowest energy state for the conditions you are in and you are going down and not straight into something (at speed). When you have ground reference, exit the spin using the training you have received and based on your regular practicing spins to maintain proficiency. If the ceilings are too low, well, you hit the ground with the least amount of energy (as in, you were dead when you got yourself into the situation so you are no worse off).

Now if there is a way to get someone who has lost their way in IMC and are specially disoriented back to being oriented then that would seem to be the better approach.

I've been involved in too many incident investigations where military pilots are trained to go to seg five and point the nose up only to have made the hole in the ground deeper to have faith in the pilot fixing what they have cocked up.
 
Of course if you have even partial panel then fly the panel. However, no vacuum no gyro planes, a spin might be the better option due to spatial D as above. At least in a spin your descent rate might be around 500FPM as compared to a lawn dart
 
FlySince9 said:
Really? Are you really suggesting that a VFR pilot finding himself in IMC should spin out of the clouds? OMG! Yea, that's a great idea!
Click to expand...

I don't believe he is suggesting that should always be done, but the fact of the matter is that he is correct in that a spin is a 1G maneuver, will not overstress the airframe, and in a training airplane it will generally fly itself out of a spin.

There is not enough emphasis placed on the aerodynamics of a spin. Matter of fact, I know of several pilots that couldn't tell me what axis an aircraft spins on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top