I haven't had a student that I couldn't get into spatial disorientation by closing their eyes while doing some turns and uncoordinated flying. I don't know of a more efficient and reliable way to get someone to experience it. I'm always open to better training methods, so if you have a more consistent technique I'd love to hear it.
Spatial Disorientation and trusting your instruments
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I haven't had a student that I couldn't get into spatial disorientation by closing their eyes while doing some turns and uncoordinated flying. I don't know of a more efficient and reliable way to get someone to experience it. I'm always open to better training methods, so if you have a more consistent technique I'd love to hear it.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I don't think that you know what true spatial disorientation feels like. Not being able to guess their attitude with their eyes closed isn't it.
Spatial disorientation is when your senses are telling to to turn or climb one way, but the instruments are telling you to turn or climb anotherway. And you look around and the plane seems to turning, and it isn't. That sort of thing. You just have to concentrate on the instruments and ignore what your inner ear (sense of balance) is telling you what to do and fly the airplane by looking at the gauges (or flat panel).
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I do, I've had it. So have most of my students. Some worse than others.
Everskyward
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I still don't think we are talking about the same thing but that's my opinion. You have yours.
You can get spatially disoriented right where you are. Just spin around 10 times and try and walk a straight line. There are different "levels" of disorientation, different intensities....
This is probably stupid but couldn't you just turn on the auto pilot and get your hands and feet away from the controls and let the plane correct itself? Before ripping me apart I have zero experience with auto pilot so I'm assuming there is an obvious reason this wouldn't work.
Clark1961
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Instrument flight training will likely help you.
As for experiencing spatial disorientation, here's a pub from the Air Safety Foundation: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/maneuvers/topics/SA17_Spatial_Disorientation.pdf
Page 9 lists methods of simulating or inducing spatial disorientation.
Stewartb
Final Approach
I disagree. Spacial disorientation doesn't mean dizzy. Part of the problem with what the CFIs are arguing about is that we associate disorientation with a physical action that causes it. In my experience I got it very shortly after takeoff and with no bumps, turns, or gyrations. The sudden, unexpected, and absolute absence of visual information was all it took. That's a big part of the disconnect between training and actual conditions for guys who don't fly actual IFR regularly. When zero vis catches you by surprise? It's very difficult to make sense of what's happening and your time respond, or I should say my own time shortly after takeoff, was very limited. I'm not sure there's any way to subject a student to that. All you can do is train them on the proper procedure and hope that if they fly into actual conditions they apply the training quickly, as in before it's too late.
When I fly in the Cirrus and we do unusual attitudes, I teach my students "conventional" as well as using the LVL key on the autopilot panel. When LVL is engaged it controls pitch and roll only and will bring the plane back to straight and level flight however, it will not hold a heading, course or altitude (regardless of what is pre-selected on the altitude selector). And if they are really screwed, just pull the chute.
IF you have an autopilot.... The only one I am aware of that has a recovery function is the one in the Cirrus.
MAKG1
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Well, first, you have to actually have an autopilot. They are heavy, so if you want to haul some weight, they are a bad thing.
Second, most have bank, pitch and airspeed limitations. Either they will just turn off (if they know they are out of bounds), or they will not work properly (if they don't).
Third, a one-axis autopilot might take care of roll for you, but you still have to handle pitch.
Fourth, they don't work very well in significant turbulence. In a downdraft, altitude hold can fly you into a stall, and heading hold can lead to upset. If they don't just turn off due to exceeding limitations.
Fifth, you have to not override them due to your disorientation. It's harder than it sounds. Especially if the roll axis autopilot is making you more disoriented (it will wallow due to uncoordinated turns -- no rudder control in many light aircraft autopilots, even rather sophisticated ones).
IF you have one AND it works under conditions given, it may help. But there are circumstances where it just won't do the right thing.
Note that if you just use a default mode, many autopilots will hold roll and maybe pitch where they are. While that can keep it from getting worse (unless the pitch is far up or down), it's not the same as leveling the aircraft. This IS the mode most appropriate for turbulence, but you want to start it close to level, which may be difficult if you're disoriented.
When depending on an autopilot for safety, they have a tendency to turn off just when you need them the most. Particularly when their inputs get interrupted. AF447 is an example.
The biggest issue is that you have to realize you're disoriented. It's not as easy as it sounds. Vertigo is kinda obvious, but more conventional disorientation is a wrong signal, not a scrambled one. That is, you're convinced the aircraft is doing something really different from what it is actually doing.
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Velocity173
While technically not an autopilot function, our HeliSAS has a panick feature. If you engage the SAS while in an unusual attitude, it'll return you to level flight. Probably not a feature on most FW autopilots though.
Trust the instruments.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Dismiss what your inner ears are telling you and believe the little instruments in your panel. Believe me, doing it is harder than you think!
To you student pilots.... don't cheat under the hood or foggles. Sneaking a reference with your peripheral vision will only serve to make you less prepared than if you learn to fly with NO outside reference. Training may save your life someday so train like it matters.
To you student pilots.... don't cheat under the hood or foggles. Sneaking a reference with your peripheral vision will only serve to make you less prepared than if you learn to fly with NO outside reference. Training may save your life someday so train like it matters.
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Jimmy cooper
En-Route
I think it's an intelligent question. I don't fly instruments because the pros who do, who survive, fly instruments often and are well qualified. I never had the time to devote to it. I have however, flown often, right seat, with those that are very good at it.IE: JFK jr. Was not good at it , had no business being there, and died along with two others because of it. I think, but do not know for certain, that if he had had a better knowledge of the aircraft he could have set the auto pilot, then done the three C's. climbed, called , and confessed and been vectored into Logan for instance. The navy calls this spatial disorientation and has a school for it. It boils down to not believing your instruments. Once control is lost, on instruments, very tough to regain controll , for a low time or beginner.
This. I always tell my students if you look outside with the foggles on, you are only cheating and hurting yourself.
Bill Watson
En-Route
Doesn't quite work that way. If a pilot had a good AP and he was proficient in operating it, he would likely have it flying the plane already. Panic modes are coming out on some systems but most require some proficiency to use.
Then there's this: recently I declared my first emergency. I was hand flying in IMC when I slowly lost my airspeed. Didn't really notice the declining airspeed until I switched on the AP. My AP reacts to inadequate airspeed by commanding a dive and displaying a flag. I went thru that loop twice before figuring out what was going on and flying to an uneventful landing. Problem was traced to bug stuff in the pitot that swelled when moisture from rain or a 'wet' cloud was encountered. Found out that in dry air the pitot would unclog so it was an intermittent clog.
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Jimmy cooper
En-Route
If the air France pilot, qualified for the right seat did what he did, then consider your chances with whatever training you've had. He completely blew it. Totally disoriented.
Analyze the instruments to make sure they are all in agreement, then fly the instruments. The thing is you have to maintain cognitive focus on your instruments while your senses are telling you all sorts of things that don't agree with what your instruments are showing. "Talking your way through it", literally verbalizing your instrument flying is one technique that can help you drown out the voice that sensation has.
warthog1984
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JFK's problem was flying VFR into actual instrument/ conditions and trusting a false horizon, not spatial d or instrument work.
warthog1984
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You need better CFIs.
Clark1961
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As Jordan said, trust the instruments. Under normal circumstances use the altimeter, airspeed indicator, and the heading indicator (or compass). The altimeter and airspeed indicator will tell you if the aircraft is level, diving, or climbing. The heading indicator will tell you if you are turning. If you are diving and turning, retard the throttle, stop the turn (level the wings) and pull. If you are climbing, add throttle and push then correct any turn.
The training listed above is good and gives structure to think past the physical sensations. It also avoids dependence on the attitude indicator. There is still exposure to vacuum system failure since the heading indicator is included. Glancing at the compass is a good idea at some point.
I'm sure other folks have other recovery methods. The point of them is to have some structured method that you can work through and convince yourself to act on the instrument indications rather than acting on physical sensation.
Clark1961
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Good CFIs can be darn difficult to find...
Yep, when I was doing my PPL, my instructor took the opportunity of actual to get a block clearance and do my required instrument work. "Might as well let you see what this is all about."
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
Your not correct. He had little or no instrument time but did have 200 hours total VFR. According to the reports.Had he been qualified he easily could have used his instruments. Instead he became disoriented, in this case in heavy haze, got into a spin and killed three people. His instructor told him not to go for this very reason. You call it what you want.
Bill Watson
En-Route
I agree with the point but the AF crew was more confused than spatally disoriented.... Really confused
Hey, I can be cavalier and contrary for fun, but not on this one. . .
On my IR check ride I dropped my pencil, turned to look back over my should at my flight bag, to see if one was available, changed my mind, and rolled my head back forward and pivoted at the waist to retrieve the one I dropped.
Understand, I was an experienced pilot by then, been in a vertigon, knew the drill, etc. But I did this dumb-a** move and when I sat back up, the instruments were lying like a dog. . .
The experience was so severe that I got the "leans"; I forced myself to keep the scan going, trust the primary flight instruments, but I had to tilt my head way over to get my brain and inner ear aligned with the gauges.
I think I would have survived if I was alone, and in the clag. . .but it was a gruesome few minutes, even under the hood. It was a extreme effort of will to maintain reliance on the gauges.
A few years later, VFR at night, looking for an ELT, no horizon, and I suddenly became "unsure" of the vertical axis - and I snapped my eyes back inside and kept them there until ears, brain, and instruments were in agreement again.
I fly with an autopilot now, and that takes the stress off a bit - but you can hand-fly yourself into a situation the AP can't save you from.
On my IR check ride I dropped my pencil, turned to look back over my should at my flight bag, to see if one was available, changed my mind, and rolled my head back forward and pivoted at the waist to retrieve the one I dropped.
Understand, I was an experienced pilot by then, been in a vertigon, knew the drill, etc. But I did this dumb-a** move and when I sat back up, the instruments were lying like a dog. . .
The experience was so severe that I got the "leans"; I forced myself to keep the scan going, trust the primary flight instruments, but I had to tilt my head way over to get my brain and inner ear aligned with the gauges.
I think I would have survived if I was alone, and in the clag. . .but it was a gruesome few minutes, even under the hood. It was a extreme effort of will to maintain reliance on the gauges.
A few years later, VFR at night, looking for an ELT, no horizon, and I suddenly became "unsure" of the vertical axis - and I snapped my eyes back inside and kept them there until ears, brain, and instruments were in agreement again.
I fly with an autopilot now, and that takes the stress off a bit - but you can hand-fly yourself into a situation the AP can't save you from.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
I haven't experienced for more than a second or two - long enough to complete a scan or two and fix that little "WTF" feeling. That really is why we do the training.
MAKG1
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So far all my ELTs/beacons have been in daylight, but I sure could see how disorientation could be an issue at night. Especially if your observer needs help on the DF.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
I was on an electronic search at night as MO and I was disoriented for sure during that because I had my eyes down on radios and maps a lot. I'd have to go eyes out to get a horizon every once in a while. I didn't fly much PIC in those days so I had problems with motion sickness. That has all gone away since I resumed flying.
This was waaaaay pre-iPhone too. What I wouldn't have given back then for the SAR-gridded sectionals that every EFB has now. Damn. I should go back to CAP it must be cake now. Then again I'd still probably have to hand-grid my Gazetteer like back in the day.
Not just confused, but they had "disconnected" mentally from the emergency they created. They all just sat there frozen, at 12,000 he said, "This is really happening, isn't it." This "disconnect" feature of the mind to make death a peaceful experience is one that is overlooked in many aircraft accidents, not to mention 'evaluation' for hiring criteria of professional pilots. There are two types of people when it comes to looking at immediate death in the face, those that disconnect and peacefully watch it all go down like watching a movie, and those who shut down all but the critical though processes and peacefully, intently, work through everything possible in what appears to be a hyper speed, hyper thought, mode where thought appears to happen about 15 times faster than normal.
MAKG1
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I was on an electronic search at night as MO and I was disoriented for sure during that because I had my eyes down on radios and maps a lot. I'd have to go eyes out to get a horizon every once in a while. I didn't fly much PIC in those days so I had problems with motion sickness. That has all gone away since I resumed flying.
This was waaaaay pre-iPhone too. What I wouldn't have given back then for the SAR-gridded sectionals that every EFB has now. Damn. I should go back to CAP it must be cake now. Then again I'd still probably have to hand-grid my Gazetteer like back in the day.
You should see what the later model DF's are like.
On a strong signal, they are incredibly easy. But not so great on a weak or distorted signal (I got my butt handed to me recently on an exercise as MO when the ***hole running it hid a beacon underneath a high-voltage transmission line).
We still have to grid the DeLormes, and it's good practice to grid the local sectional -- it only takes an hour or so and they last forever as backup. Foreflight and FltPlan Go have the grids, but it's real bad juju to call off a search 'cause your battery died, or to blow your night vision 'cause the iPad blasts light in your face.
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Bill Watson
En-Route
That's an interesting bit of pop-psychology behavior modeling... or at least a model I've never heard of before. But okay.
I've always felt like there were 2 kinds of reaction to an imminent disaster - panic or hyper-focused engagement which corresponds to your 2nd type. Seems to me that pilots generally react to emergencies with the latter and that it comes from the high confidence that most of us fly around with. The high confidence that tells us that if we think hard enough and perform well enough we can get out of this mess and save our butts! At least right up to impact.
Were some of the AF crew so aloof or disconnected that they assumed failure and sat back to watch it happen? Nah, I don't think so. Maybe they were so confident that the Airbus systems would prevent the ultimate disaster and they had time to work it through... I mean you can't go from 30,000' to splash down in a modern airliner that still had power can you? But sitting back and awaiting certain death along with all the post mortem humiliation for being such numb nuts? Nah.
Actually the "time dilation" effect is one I have personally experienced (and many others also ring in that they experience it as well) and finally got to measure when I put the AgCat in the crop because I could calculate the time from wheels in the crop to the stop because I could measure the distance and compare that to the operating speed (115kts) and figured it for 1.3 seconds, and then sat down with vivid recollection of every thought I had and timed how long it took to go through them all which came out over 15 seconds. The AF447 accident provided a rare glimpse into the other side of the equation because we had FDR and CVR evidence of what all happened. The problem with establishing this reaction is that normally it's not survived because as with AF447, you end up dead; however there are people who do survive, typically in car wrecks, who report, "It was like I was watching it happen to someone else in a movie."
azure
Final Approach
Actually he had over 300 hours, including some unspecified number of hours with a CFII toward his instrument rating. There's been a lot of speculation about why he succumbed to spatial d, including that possibly he didn't realize that he was in instrument conditions and tried to fly visually as he got closer to MVY even though he was adequately capable to fly without visual reference. Recognizing when conditions are so marginal that you need to be on the gauges is something that a lot of CFIs don't teach.
I'd also be very leery of jumping to the conclusion that he would have survived if he'd finished his IR. Spatial D happens to a lot of instrument rated pilots too, sometimes with fatal consequences.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
I was on a commercial flight when the worst one hit me. It was at night and the lights were low and we were in turbulence. All of a sudden I thought we were doing rolls. I would have bet everything I owned that we were doing aileron rolls. The only way I knew we weren't was I was the only one screaming.
Seriously, it was am amazing feeling that I still cant believe to this day. The only way I knew nothing was wrong was no one was screaming.
Seriously, it was am amazing feeling that I still cant believe to this day. The only way I knew nothing was wrong was no one was screaming.
wilkersk
Pattern Altitude
The worst case of the "leans" I ever got was launching into a broken layer on a sunny day. I wound up in a cloud just as departure gave me a vector. I was visual to that point and really didn't have my scan working; only because I was thinking about how that vector figured into my route, and was fiddling with heading bug. I got it worked out. But, not without a little verbal jibe from my CFI and the controller.
The lesson was that with a cloud lined up in my departure route, I should've been scanning the gauges sooner, and just let the controller worry about my heading for the few seconds it took for me to get the aircraft headed the right way and trimmed up.
The lesson was that with a cloud lined up in my departure route, I should've been scanning the gauges sooner, and just let the controller worry about my heading for the few seconds it took for me to get the aircraft headed the right way and trimmed up.
Geez, I wouldn't fool with the DF at night, in marginal VFR, or high traffic areas. Becker or otherwise, I didn't even look at it. In those cases the MO would be another Mission Pilot, and give me steering corrections. I could deal with "ballast" in the right seat, day VFR, but that IR checkride incident got me focused. . .