Space shuttle Endeavor comin' to town

Irish_Armada

Irish_Armada

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Irish Armada
I see there are TFR's over Northern Cali on Sept 20 in the morning for the Shuttle Endeavor Delivery Mission. An instructor at my FBO said they'd be piggy backing it around on a 747 or similar jet; would be great to see. Looks like its first stop may be McClellan or Sac Int'l and then its heading over to SF Int'l. Anyone know anything else about it? That would be some serious wake turbulence... :D

Sept 20 8-9:30am - Surface - 5,000' MSL
ZOA SMF-Shuttle Endeavor Delivery TFR (2002-4352-1)
Aerial Demonstrations during the Shuttle Endeavor Delivery Mission

Sept 20 8:30-10:30am - Surface - 5,000' MSL
ZOA SFO-Shuttle Endeavor Delivery TFR (2002-4353-1)
Aerial Demonstrations during the Shuttle Endeavor Delivery Mission
 
Oh wow, holy crap those are huge TFR's. Those will put a LOT of airports out of commission.

Is it THAT necessary? The TFR only goes to 5,000 feet. I'm not sure of the logic there.
 
The SCAs are not capable of high altitude flight when loaded.

There is a scheduled overflight of KNUQ at 0930 local on the 20th. There is a public event at NASA/Ames, but it's likely to be a total zoo. I'd suggest a comfy beach chair at Shoreline Park.

It may be a big TFR, but read the text. All operations are allowed (even VFR) with a flight plan and communication with ATC (i.e., VFR flight following). There is no no-fly zone like for presidential TFRs.
 
That is what I read. They are doing low passes over historical and national monuments for photo ops. I don't think they are going to land in Sacramento.
 
What the heck is a TFR around a Shuttle carrier supposed to accomplish for the public good? (Rolls eyes.)
 
denverpilot said:
What the heck is a TFR around a Shuttle carrier supposed to accomplish for the public good? (Rolls eyes.)
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Sorry to disagree. It is a photo op, for the last fligth of the Endeaver. Publicity for any type of aviation could be a good thing for both aviation and the public.
 
John221us said:
Sorry to disagree. It is a photo op, for the last fligth of the Endeaver. Publicity for any type of aviation could be a good thing for both aviation and the public.
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All fine and good, but it doesn't require a TFR to accomplish that mission. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
All fine and good, but it doesn't require a TFR to accomplish that mission. ;)
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I'm not so sure about that. Airliners below the floor of Class B are not a common sight, and this is expected over NUQ. Especially if it isn't flying in a straight line, or exceeds 200 KIAS. The SCAs are not normal 747s.

It's a relatively benign TFR. There is no no-fly zone in the center, and you can do anything with a flight plan and squawk code.
 
I think it would be neat to see the shuttle gliding in as its last flight to its final resting (or close to) spot.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm not so sure about that. Airliners below the floor of Class B are not a common sight, and this is expected over NUQ. Especially if it isn't flying in a straight line, or exceeds 200 KIAS. The SCAs are not normal 747s.

It's a relatively benign TFR. There is no no-fly zone in the center, and you can do anything with a flight plan and squawk code.
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I'm trying to get you to think harder about it. ;)

What about it being not a common sight or going over 200 knots requires a TFR that isn't already covered in the FARs?

And since you added it, is one "benign" TFR good?

How about ten a day? A hundred? A thousand?

When does it become a cancer, instead of being benign?

What specific purpose do you believe they serve?

Should one follow *every* non-normal aircraft around?

Questions to make you think, is all these are... ;)

Another question series:

Are you very well conditioned to accept more and more regulation of your life and that of others? Have you checked lately? ;)

Who might benefit from no one minding more and more "benign" regulations and rules?

What resources are required FO create, monitor, and enforce "benign" regulations?

How much is lost in real dollars to them? Who pays those dollars?

Keep going... If you like. :) The rabbit hole is pretty deep.

For a little movie-based levity... Red pill, or Blue pill?

Your decision. :)

(Not related to Red States and Blue States, which is a completely different topic, since all States are truly purple. You can't unmix colors once mixed. Think about that one for a minute. Someone wants you to believe colors mixed are only one hue if there's 51% of one color and 49% of another... And ALL the imagery you're fed EVERY day during elections now says so. Think it's accurate? Who benefits from this lie? :) )
 
What an utter waste of tax dollars. It not enough just to fly it to LA no fly around FL then TX then NM then NorCal. Benign TFR. This is the thinking that will end GA as we know it. tell it to the FBO's who are under the benign TFRS. Don't worry the fed is printing benign dollars to pay for it!
 
Hey guys- don't get to excited about the TFRs. The shuttle is making a stop over in Houston and rumor has it the Texas militia might not let it leave. They are saying something about Houston being its rightful home.:wink2:
 
CMTowner said:
I think it would be neat to see the shuttle gliding in as its last flight to its final resting (or close to) spot.
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I suggested that they drop Enterprise and let it glide down to the Intrepid deck but they didn't take me up on that idea. I also suggested it might be easier to tow the Intrepid over to JFK rather than barging the shuttle and having to use multiple cranes.
 
Irish_Armada said:
Sept 20 8:30-10:30am - Surface - 5,000' MSL
ZOA SFO-Shuttle Endeavor Delivery TFR (2002-4353-1)
Aerial Demonstrations during the Shuttle Endeavor Delivery Mission
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Supposedly it's suppose to go over the Golden Gate Bridge and down the peninsula to NASA Ames. I'm hoping I get to see this but I'm crossing my fingers because the fog doesn't start to burn til 11AM. :(
 
Denver, you have points, but I don't think you understand what's going on here.

Even without the TFR, the affected airports would be effectively closed for a short time, because this aircraft is going to cut off all their reasonable departures. The planned route is in a line over all the airports on the west and south sides of the bay and over the rivers, all at low altitudes and high speeds. The aircraft will almost certainly be flying in formation with the usual two chase planes. The alternate routes take care of the east side.

This is much more like an airshow TFR than a VIP TFR. Not all TFRs are evil. In particular, I really don't have a problem with fire TFRs. This TFR is neutral; ATC wants to be talking to people; for the clueless nimrod that takes off from HAF without turning the radio on or getting a weather briefing, this removes a massive hazard.

I have thought rather deeply about the role of government. Many TFRs, particularly VIP and security TFRs, are highly problematic. Stadium TFRs are unjust and should be unenforceable. But you can't characterize a blanket statement that all government is bad as "thinking." It's much more nuanced than that.

To answer your question about what is required that isn't already in the FARs -- it's radio communication in Class E, and VFR separation services outside Class B.
 
Nate, I have to disagree with what appears to be the slant of your question series. I think that the problems caused by a bunch of NORDO Cubs (just to pick an example) flying around the area trying to have their friend snap a picture with the shuttle in the background warrant a TFR like this one. Without the TFR they'd be legal, but would greatly increase the complexity and decrease the safety. I wouldn't want the SCA to have to do unplanned low altitude maneuvering to avoid a gaggle of GA aircraft.
 
gprellwitz said:
Nate, I have to disagree with what appears to be the slant of your question series. I think that the problems caused by a bunch of NORDO Cubs (just to pick an example) flying around the area trying to have their friend snap a picture with the shuttle in the background warrant a TFR like this one. Without the TFR they'd be legal, but would greatly increase the complexity and decrease the safety. I wouldn't want the SCA to have to do unplanned low altitude maneuvering to avoid a gaggle of GA aircraft.
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Sigh. Maybe you guys are right. Perhaps too many idiots own light aircraft and can't behave sensibly.
 
denverpilot said:
Sigh. Maybe you guys are right. Perhaps too many idiots own light aircraft and can't behave sensibly.
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Here in Houston the shuttle will fly over downtown and some other scenic places. Do we really want Cessna 150s mixing it up with the Shuttle and the SCA? I don't.

You can still fly, you just need to be on a FP and talking to ATC.
 
MadseasoN said:
Here in Houston the shuttle will fly over downtown and some other scenic places. Do we really want Cessna 150s mixing it up with the Shuttle and the SCA? I don't.

You can still fly, you just need to be on a FP and talking to ATC.
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Yeah but what a pain in the a**.

Procedural question, you are taking off from a non-towered airport within the active TFR. You file a VFR flight plan through FSS. How do you get your squawk and establish comm with approach prior to taking off? (what if you can't reach them on the radio from the ground?) is it a similar procedure to departing a non-towered airport under an IFR clearance?
 
Sac Arrow said:
Yeah but what a pain in the a**.

Procedural question, you are taking off from a non-towered airport within the active TFR. You file a VFR flight plan through FSS. How do you get your squawk and establish comm with approach prior to taking off? (what if you can't reach them on the radio from the ground?) is it a similar procedure to departing a non-towered airport under an IFR clearance?
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Yes, a similar procedure. You can either call the dedicated clearance line (1-888-766-8267)or just call FSS (1-800-WX-BRIEF) and tell them that you need a squawk code for your flight. You'll launch with that code squawking, and establish radio communications once airborn.
 
Heads up. They pushed the Shuttle Endeavor Delivery Mission to Friday now.
 
gprellwitz said:
Yes, a similar procedure. You can either call the dedicated clearance line (1-888-766-8267)or just call FSS (1-800-WX-BRIEF) and tell them that you need a squawk code for your flight. You'll launch with that code squawking, and establish radio communications once airborn.
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Thanks. I don't actually plan on watching it from the air but I plan to go someplace on Saturday, and they way the schedule is getting pushed back it may well happen then.
 
MAKG1 said:
We've gotten four or five official notifications of the overflight, and not a single one about the delay. Typical NASA communications....
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85% of JPL is on a 9/80 schedule (9 hours a day, every other Friday off). Guess which of the 2 Fridays this week is?

--Carlos V.
 
It looks like it was delayed another hour and is departing Edwards at 8:15 am. What time do you suppose that puts it over Sac?
 
Apparently the entire schedule was delayed about an hour (and so was the TFR). I saw it climbing out from its low pass at Moffett at 9:40 AM. It headed south and was given a frequency change to the Montery Bay sector of Norcal Approach.
 
Some pics I took today.
 

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My wife just saw it flying over downtown LA. Unfortunately, I'm too far south to get a look today.

Jeff
 
Sac Arrow said:
Where was that shot taken? Looks like from Emoryville.
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Negative. :) Taken in Burlingame where all the hotels are next to SFO. Barely caught it when it was in the East Bay and saw it over the city. It flew towards us over San Bruno mountains but thought it would fly over SFO and the bay but instead it went behind us down the peninsula.

Attached pics might give you a better idea of where I was located. :)
 

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ainokea said:
Negative. :) Taken in Burlingame where all the hotels are next to SFO. Barely caught it when it was in the East Bay and saw it over the city. It flew towards us over San Bruno mountains but thought it would fly over SFO and the bay but instead it went behind us down the peninsula.

Attached pics might give you a better idea of where I was located. :)
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Aaaah I was almost 180 degrees off! Yeah, one of my favorite hiking spots is Sweeney Ridge, just behind that view.
 
I saw it at Moffett this morning. The traffic backup went to 280 this morning at 9:30! Ouch. Ames needs to figure out a less-than-massively-stupid way to have public events.

Just how few knots above MCA was that thing flying? It did 400 feet over Moffett, and looked like it was flaring for a landing, the pitch angle was so high.
 
So all our manned spacecraft are now museum pieces. Nice.
 
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