Southwest 'purchased' frequency used by DZ for A2A and A2G

From everything I've been able to find, the SW pilot was talking out of his butt. The DZ probably doesn't have explicit permission to use the frequency, but nobody else owns it.

Thanks for all of the replies!
 
From everything I've been able to find, the SW pilot was talking out of his butt. The DZ probably doesn't have explicit permission to use the frequency, but nobody else owns it.

Thanks for all of the replies!

“The DZ probably doesn't have explicit permission to use the frequency but nobody else owns it” — I don’t think it works that way.

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-04-1622A1.doc

Here’s a case involving 123.05 usage, and, coincidentally, another drop zone.

In short, Pepperell Airport was licensed and used 123.05 for their unicom and high altitude jump zone operations.

Pepperell let their station license lapse, and some time later Knox County airport (159 miles away) applied for and was granted a license for 123.05, stating they did not see current licensing by Pepperell.

Knox County experienced interference from Pepperell’s high powered transmitter, and petitioned the FCC for a denial of Pepperell’s re-application.

FCC refused to deny Pepperell’s re-application, but referered Pepperell to enforcement for transmitting on 123.05 without a license.
 
Correct. I knew that. PBI was just the closest SWA airport that I could find with a company ops frequency close to 131.5. Just in case Cpt Five Thumbs might have misdialed. Yeah, it’s a stretch but that is why I posted the info and then asked whether they had heard other SWA calls.
I'd look farther out. I've had this happen... trying to call a station 180 nm out but getting drown out by people using the frequency a couple/10,000 feet below.

It really could be that SWA was trying to get in touch with one of their stations on that frequency, and just because a receiver on the ground or a jump plane at 12,000 feet can hear it, doesn't mean a 737 at FL320 can't.
 
The manager has called the FCC and several places and hasn't heard anything about ownership or a frequency or anything.
Well, since I'm locked in a hotel room for my layover with nothing but time, I did a little Google-Fu. If you go to the FCC's Frequency Database Search Engine and search for 131.5 licenses in FL, two come up.
FCC 1.jpg

The first listing is at Southwest Florida International (KRSW), which is only 102 NM from X26.

Click on that listing and this is what comes up:
FCC 2.jpg

Take a wild guess who the Control Point for 131.5 at KRSW is. Who could be headquartered at 2702 Love Field Drive in Dallas?

FCC 3.jpg

So... maybe the Southwest Pilot wasn't talking out of his or her ass and you guys really were garbaging up their Ops frequency.

I'd suggest you should probably stop using 131.5, and apply for a A2A frequency to legally use.

From everything I've been able to find, the SW pilot was talking out of his butt. The DZ probably doesn't have explicit permission to use the frequency, but nobody else owns it.
May want to reconsider that.
 
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I believe Jim Weir @weirdjim mentioned that a few times here. Maybe he’ll share his experience and expertise again.
I'm not Jim but I can tell you from experience that flight test freqs (like 123.45) are reserved for flight test *stations*, not flight test in general. Flight test stations are assigned freqs and don't necessarily get to select which frequencies they are assigned. Anecdotes where boneheads stepped on tests using these freqs are in the links @Palmpilot posted. Stations I have worked with requested (and received) alternates as well because we knew from experience there are those who will disregard the law without regard for impact.

Edit to add: Even an alternate freq was not a guarantee of success if an interloper used our prebriefed primary freq, as the switch to alternate would coincide with what was effectively a lost comm situation which required a mission abort. It was a contingency plan to maintain safety of flight, one that required ending a mission with incomplete data.

Nauga,
on high warble
 
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Great info, thanks! It's not my DZ or my fight, but I'll let my SIL know what was found. She's pretty by-the-book, so she'll probably look into getting a discreet frequency for the place.
 
You can always just use the generic A2A freqs, or an alternative MULTICOM.

WRT "fingers", perhaps whoever selected that as the frequency of choice for flight testing might have considered other options less likely to get disrupted. That's like using "PASSWORD" for your account login and wondering why you got hacked.
 
WRT "fingers", perhaps whoever selected that as the frequency of choice for flight testing might have considered other options less likely to get disrupted.
Maybe they were operating under the assumption that most pilots could read and follow instructions.

Given that we are where we are now regardless of the validity of that assumption, those of us that are actually authorized to use flight test station freqs request that you stay off of them.

Nauga,
on French forest
 
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I do not believe that the Chinese are required to follow US law on radio frequency licensing unless operating in the US.
I do not believe anyone is required to follow US law unless they are in the United States.
I for one am blissfully ignorant of the laws of Mongolia.
 
You can always just use the generic A2A freqs, or an alternative MULTICOM.

WRT "fingers", perhaps whoever selected that as the frequency of choice for flight testing might have considered other options less likely to get disrupted. That's like using "PASSWORD" for your account login and wondering why you got hacked.
A freind is a teacher. Her SCHOOL set up their employee's internet passwords as the first letter of their first name and then up to seven letters of their last name.

And we wonder what is wrong with education...
 
Well, since I'm locked in a hotel room for my layover with nothing but time, I did a little Google-Fu. If you go to the FCC's Frequency Database Search Engine and search for 131.5 licenses in FL, two come up.
View attachment 105922

The first listing is at Southwest Florida International (KRSW), which is only 102 NM from X26.

Click on that listing and this is what comes up:
View attachment 105923

Take a wild guess who the Control Point for 131.5 at KRSW is. Who could be headquartered at 2702 Love Field Drive in Dallas?

View attachment 105924

So... maybe the Southwest Pilot wasn't talking out of his or her ass and you guys really were garbaging up their Ops frequency.

I'd suggest you should probably stop using 131.5, and apply for a A2A frequency to legally use.

May want to reconsider that.


You beat me to it! Here is the full list of every "owner" both current and expired of that frequency.

https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/Ul...rkZ12yjwnl2N766TPghlWJ!-116304143!-2089518307
 
I do not believe anyone is required to follow US law unless they are in the United States.
I for one am blissfully ignorant of the laws of Mongolia.

The IRS would like to have a word with you if you are a US citizen living abroad. They still want their taxes, and to know about foreign accounts, etc...and they will come get you.
 
The IRS would like to have a word with you if you are a US citizen living abroad. They still want their taxes, and to know about foreign accounts, etc...and they will come get you.
I am a US citizen. When I was younger, owned no investment accounts or property in the United States, and was legally working in a foreign country for a foreign company I was not liable for any US taxes whatsoever. It is not illegal for US citizens to own foreign bank accounts-- it is illegal for ANYONE to hide money earned in the US, that includes by moving it outside the US. But I could have earned a "million-billion dollars" overseas-- full disclosure, I did not-- bought a yaucht, a condo and put the rest in an investment account there and returned to the US without owing Uncle Sam a dollar because I had already paid tio Simon on that income.
 
I am a US citizen. When I was younger, owned no investment accounts or property in the United States, and was legally working in a foreign country for a foreign company I was not liable for any US taxes whatsoever. It is not illegal for US citizens to own foreign bank accounts-- it is illegal for ANYONE to hide money earned in the US, that includes by moving it outside the US. But I could have earned a "million-billion dollars" overseas-- full disclosure, I did not-- bought a yaucht, a condo and put the rest in an investment account there and returned to the US without owing Uncle Sam a dollar because I had already paid tio Simon on that income.

I didn't say it was illegal, I said you have to report it. And if I retire to place X - I am still liable to pay US income taxes on my investment dividends, even though I am not in the country.
 
You can always just use the generic A2A freqs, or an alternative MULTICOM.

WRT "fingers", perhaps whoever selected that as the frequency of choice for flight testing might have considered other options less likely to get disrupted. That's like using "PASSWORD" for your account login and wondering why you got hacked.
God that’s inane. So the authorized user of the frequency should know not to use because everyone else uses it without authorization?? You gotta be kidding. You’re smarter than that Ed. How about *******s with a pilot certificate should be capable of following basic rules. There is a frequency set aside just for air to air, use it.
 
God that’s inane. So the authorized user of the frequency should know not to use because everyone else uses it without authorization?? You gotta be kidding. You’re smarter than that Ed. How about *******s with a pilot certificate should be capable of following basic rules. There is a frequency set aside just for air to air, use it.

I'm just gonna call up ATC on whatever frequency I feel like because I'm an entitled *******.
 
I didn't say it was illegal, I said you have to report it. And if I retire to place X - I am still liable to pay US income taxes on my investment dividends, even though I am not in the country.
Not trying to pick a fight here.

"And if I retire to place X "(let's say the Bahamas) "- I am still liable to pay US income taxes on my investment dividends, even though I am not in the country."

Only if those investments were held in the US. If they were held in Nassau or Stockholm, no they would not be subject to US law or the IRS.

One is liable for US taxes under US law if you were in the US and or your investments were in the US. You would only have to report to the IRS if you wanted to return to the US and even then, if you did not report, the penalty for not reporting is just an additional percentage of what was due. So what? 200% or 2000% of zero is still zero.

What I originally said was "I do not believe anyone is required to follow US law unless they are in the United States." If you are a citizen elsewhere you will absolutely not be sent to the US to face charges of violating US law-- case closed. If you are a US citizen, and a legal resident elsewhere, it is highly unlikely that country will involuntarily return you to the US (like you would have to have committed a crime there unlikely).
 
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You can always just use the generic A2A freqs, or an alternative MULTICOM.

WRT "fingers", perhaps whoever selected that as the frequency of choice for flight testing might have considered other options less likely to get disrupted. That's like using "PASSWORD" for your account login and wondering why you got hacked.

Yeah I'll disagree here. 123.45 was an undesignated channel that was available for licensing. It only became a conflict once some pilots learned to count to 5 and decided it was way cooler to name their own unofficial air-to-air frequency, instead of using the one the FCC and FAA officially designated.
 
I am a US citizen. When I was younger, owned no investment accounts or property in the United States, and was legally working in a foreign country for a foreign company I was not liable for any US taxes whatsoever. It is not illegal for US citizens to own foreign bank accounts-- it is illegal for ANYONE to hide money earned in the US, that includes by moving it outside the US. But I could have earned a "million-billion dollars" overseas-- full disclosure, I did not-- bought a yaucht, a condo and put the rest in an investment account there and returned to the US without owing Uncle Sam a dollar because I had already paid tio Simon on that income.

Did you file a US tax return to see if you weren't liable for US taxes? You may or may not have been liable for US taxes, but you still were required to file a tax return with the IRS. Doesn't matter where you lived or who you worked for, US citizens are required to file a US tax return annually.

Not trying to pick a fight here.

"And if I retire to place X "(let's say the Bahamas) "- I am still liable to pay US income taxes on my investment dividends, even though I am not in the country."

Only if those investments were held in the US. If they were held in Nassau or Stockholm, no they would not be subject to US law or the IRS.

One is liable for US taxes under US law if you were in the US and or your investments were in the US. You would only have to report to the IRS if you wanted to return to the US and even then, if you did not report, the penalty for not reporting is just an additional percentage of what was due. So what? 200% or 2000% of zero is still zero.

What I originally said was "I do not believe anyone is required to follow US law unless they are in the United States." If you are a citizen elsewhere you will absolutely not be sent to the US to face charges of violating US law-- case closed. If you are a US citizen, and a legal resident elsewhere, it is highly unlikely that country will involuntarily return you to the US (like you would have to have committed a crime there unlikely).
If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is not true.

The US is one of only two countries in the world that tax its citizen's worldwide income regardless of residence (the other is Eritrea).

If you are living in Albania, and working for an Albanian company as an American citizen, you are still required to file a US tax return every year and may be liable for taxes owed. Now, there are various tax treaties in place with numerous countries to prevent double taxation, and there is an expat income exemption for a certain amount of your income, but you may still be liable for US taxes as a citizen living and working abroad.

In fact there is a class of people (“accidental citizens") who are people who were perhaps born here in the US to foreign nationals but went back to their home country at a young age (say 6 months old). Due to our citizenship being based on jus soli, these toddlers are US citizens. When they start earning income where ever they may live, they still have to file a US tax return and may have to pay US taxes, even though they have not lived in the US since they were in diapers.

It's an extremely screwed up system and why many people look into renouncing their US citizenship if they decide to retire abroad.
 
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It's an extremely screwed up system.
Yes, it is.
Did you file a US tax return to see if you weren't liable for US taxes? You may or may not have been liable for US taxes, but you still were required to file a tax return with the IRS. Doesn't matter where you lived or who you worked for, US citizens are required to file a US tax return annually.
I spent many years when I was younger living and working in Canada and around the Caribbean. I was always taxed by the country I resided in, and occasionally by a second country (IE: when we flew regular flights beteween Cuba and Mexico we were taxed by both countries.) I always filed US returns even though I did not owe any US taxes because I always intended to return to the US.
In fact there is a class of people "accidental citizen" who are people who were perhaps born here in the US to foreign nationals but went back to their home country at a young age (say 6 months old). Due to our citizenship being based on jus soli, these toddlers are US citizens. When they start earning income where ever they may live, they still have to file a US tax return and may have to pay US taxes, even though they have not lived in the US since they were in diapers.
I'm certain that this is the view held by the IRS. And it is irrelevant. If a citizen of XYZ-land was born in the US and is a dual citizen and does not have investments in the US or an intent to live in the US, the US has no means to compel that person to pay US taxes. No country on earth will comply with an extradition order. It's moot.
Many people look into renouncing their US citizenship if they decide to retire abroad.
Which would likely be pointless. If they earned their money in the US they are liable for US taxes, regardless of where they retire. I have heard anecdotal stories that some countries will not extradite US citizens that the IRS has leins on, but I'd never put myself in that position. I'm not suggesting that people cheat on their taxes. I've been there (employed and living overseas-- not a tax cheat), done that, and sat through hours of listening to company lawyers and accountants explain what we could do and what we could not do.
 
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Yes, it is.

I spent many years when I was younger living and working in Canada and around the Caribbean. I was always taxed by the country I resided in, and occasionally by a second country (IE: when we flew regular flights beteween Cuba and Mexico we were taxed by both countries.) I always filed US returns even though I did not owe any US taxes because I always intended to return to the US.

I'm certain that this is the view held by the IRS. And it is irrelevant. If a citizen of XYZ-land was born in the US and is a dual citizen and does not have investments in the US or an intent to live in the US, the US has no means to compel that person to pay US taxes. No country on earth will comply with an extradition order. It's moot.

Which would likely be pointless. If they earned their money in the US they are liable for US taxes, regardless of where they retire. I have heard anecdotal stories that some countries will not extradite US citizens that the IRS has leins on, but I'd never put myself in that position. I'm not suggesting that people cheat on their taxes. I've been there (employed and living overseas-- not a tax cheat), done that, and sat through hours of listening to company lawyers and accountants explain what we could do and what we could not do.

I'm not saying you'll be extradited and thrown into jail, but you know that things changed dramatically back in 2010 for expats, with the signing of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, right? (Thanks, Obama! ;) ) The FATCA and the FBAR now have some teeth if you plan on doing anything in the US ever.

If you don't think the US and IRS is coming after people for this, you're mistaken. Now, you and I and other little people... who knows. But there have been a couple big cases of the US coming after people for violating the FATCA and winning. Famously Boris Johnson (then mayor of London) was an "Accidental American" (he was born in NY) who renounced his citizenship because the IRS taxes the capital gains of the sale of his home in London. The UK has no such thing as a "capital gains tax."

So, here's a guy who was born in New York, but moved back to England when he was 5, and had no other ties to the US. He bought a home in London, and then sells that home. He owes no taxes to the UK, but the IRS taxes capital-gains on the sale of your primary residence. The US knows he sold his house and wants their cut of the pie. For a house in London. Owned by a Brit.

He was getting ready to come to the US in 2015 and basically was told that when he arrived, he'd be arrested for tax evasion. So, although at first he resisted, he ended up paying because he didn't even want to deal with the idea that when he landed there'd be problems.

So don't think that just because you earn money in a foreign country as a US citizen that you're immune. You're not. If you never want to visit the US, I'm sure you can probably get away with it, but if you have any thought that you may come back, whether it's to live, or visit family or friends, you better have complies with FATCA and FBAR accounting rules.
 
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