Soon to be inheriting plane from sick parents- need help

Four words. Durable Power of Attorney. You want it yesterday. If you don't do it in time you'll be dealing with one word, Guardian. And that's a really bad word.

:yeahthat:

We went through this with my Dad a couple of years ago. Fortunately we were able to get a durable power of attorney using a notary that knew the family. Dad was quite clear on who he trusted but couldn't tell what day of the week it was. The notary was happy to notarize the power of attorney.

The nursing facility dad was in was quite apologetic about the living will documents but would not accept dad's signature because he couldn't answer some basic questions (like day of the week). The social worker said it was clear what he wanted, but their guidelines were also clear on what they had to do to assess mental acuity for paperwork. As it turned out it was not an issue, thankfully.

Get a durable power of attorney before it's too late. Assuming its not already to late. Getting on the signature card at the bank is a convenience, and useful BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH!

John
 
Somebody out there will want it for parts at the very least...

That was what I was thinking. But then wondered, which parts would likely still be usable or in good enough state to repair again?

Probably a lot depends on how exposed to elements, but even in a hangar, rust, decay, breakdown of materials, I wouldn't think much would be salvageable. But I don't know.
 
That was what I was thinking. But then wondered, which parts would likely still be usable or in good enough state to repair again?

Probably a lot depends on how exposed to elements, but even in a hangar, rust, decay, breakdown of materials, I wouldn't think much would be salvageable. But I don't know.

You might be surprised at how rebuildable aluminum airplane components are. Rudders, ailerons, flaps, elevators, even a whole wing. People crunch one of those and it becomes a hunt to find a replacement to get flying again.

And then there are all the bits that are unique to a particular airframe, out of production and expensive to find. Now a 172 is not as difficult to find parts as many other models.
 
GRG is correct. Given that the plastic piece at the end of the defroster hose costs a couple hundred dollars new in a 150 I'm thinking the parts are worth a lot! Just the push rods alone are worth $20 a piece! I bought 4 at Faeth recently. Crank could be worth several hundred. Cam is most likely worthless.
Faeth pays low but has to do all the parting and storage and cataloging etc. etc. for the years until all is sold.

Example interior pieces:


Note: The Actual color of part may vary from the picture shown here.

FAAPMAAPP.jpg
Note: The Actual color of part may vary from the picture shown here.
Part Description: COVER
For Model: 172E, F, G
Color: Black
Part price: $204.19
Qty:


Note: The Actual color of part may vary from the picture shown here.

FAAPMAAPP.jpg
Note: The Actual color of part may vary from the picture shown here.
Part Description: TIARA
For Model: 172N, P & R172K
Color: CREME 90
Part price: $98.03
Qty:
 
:yeahthat:

We went through this with my Dad a couple of years ago. Fortunately we were able to get a durable power of attorney using a notary that knew the family. Dad was quite clear on who he trusted but couldn't tell what day of the week it was. The notary was happy to notarize the power of attorney.

The nursing facility dad was in was quite apologetic about the living will documents but would not accept dad's signature because he couldn't answer some basic questions (like day of the week). The social worker said it was clear what he wanted, but their guidelines were also clear on what they had to do to assess mental acuity for paperwork. As it turned out it was not an issue, thankfully.

Get a durable power of attorney before it's too late. Assuming its not already to late. Getting on the signature card at the bank is a convenience, and useful BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH!

John

Very good advice. We got my mom's done years ago while she was still completely alert and healthy. We don't need to wait until she is stroked out in the hospital for the thing to come in handy. She is now very confused about everything paper related. I am able to use the power of attorney for such mundane things as signing her taxes, making changes with utilities and her insurance policies, and so on, where it would just be very inconvenient, confusing, time consuming and painful for everyone involved getting her to sign that sort of stuff.

So it's not just for catastrophic complete guardianship. Once in place you can gradually use it as needed for anything that comes up.

At that time she also took me to the bank and put me on all her accounts as joint owner, so I have total ability to spend on her behalf. It makes it very easy for me to handle all her bills. I am not sure that's the best way to do it in every case. It is the easiest and most straightforward to care for her, but also allows me to access and blow it all on gambling or whatnot. If you have a child you trust 100% like my mom does me, and the other children don't mind, it works. Not only do my siblings not mind, they're happy to let me handle all this PITB stuff. But there is probably a more legally sound way of doing that with your cash accounts, some sort of trust or something. The way we do it though, I keep meticulous records that my siblings can examine at any time should they suspect me of foul play, but technically, I am not legally required to provide that. I AM legally required to provide that to her lawyer when I exercise the PoA to access some asset not jointly owned by me.

The other down side to doing it this way is the right of survivorship. When she dies the cash is mine. Technically it won't be in her estate to divide between all her children. But I wouldn't dream of screwing my siblings out of their inheritance. I'm the executor anyway, so upon her death I will throw it in the pot and distribute accordingly. But again, if you don't have that level of trust in your child, this isn't the best way to do it. And no one can predict what behaviors can ensue upon a death even in the most loving of families so complete aboveboard record keeping is a must.

Banks and accounts and state laws differ not to mention family dynamics so YMMV. Consult your own lawyers and accountants.
 
GRG is correct. Given that the plastic piece at the end of the defroster hose costs a couple hundred dollars new in a 150 I'm thinking the parts are worth a lot! Just the push rods alone are worth $20 a piece! I bought 4 at Faeth recently. Crank could be worth several hundred. Cam is most likely worthless.
Faeth pays low but has to do all the parting and storage and cataloging etc. etc. for the years until all is sold.

Example interior pieces:


Note: The Actual color of part may vary from the picture shown here.

FAAPMAAPP.jpg
Note: The Actual color of part may vary from the picture shown here.
Part Description: COVER
For Model: 172E, F, G
Color: Black
Part price: $204.19
Qty:


Note: The Actual color of part may vary from the picture shown here.

FAAPMAAPP.jpg
Note: The Actual color of part may vary from the picture shown here.
Part Description: TIARA
For Model: 172N, P & R172K
Color: CREME 90
Part price: $98.03
Qty:

But, at least in my experience, plastic doesn't hold up all that well. Maybe I'm confusing it with Bakelite but I seem to recall working on older electronics where old plastic tends to crack and break. Hoses, rubber, etc, same thing.

I can see GRG55's point about rudders, hinges, etc. metal parts being ok. But I don't know if there too age is a factor making it less reliable. Also parts you mention make sense. Again, thirty years, if say in a place that has extreme cold winters, hot summers...thirty years is a long time.

Also, to part it I'm just guessing but either the OP will have to go through item by item, evaluate the condition and price to ask, find a buyer, etc. or else sell whole to someone that works on repairs or parts, and take a bigger loss because that person will still have to do the same.

At some point time spent could be more profitable working at ones day job, some OT.

Sorry to hear of the OP's plight. It's never easy when your parents are getting sick. I wish you the best.
 
Very good advice. We got my mom's done years ago while she was still completely alert and healthy. We don't need to wait until she is stroked out in the hospital for the thing to come in handy. She is now very confused about everything paper related. I am able to use the power of attorney for such mundane things as signing her taxes, making changes with utilities and her insurance policies, and so on, where it would just be very inconvenient, confusing, time consuming and painful for everyone involved getting her to sign that sort of stuff.

So it's not just for catastrophic complete guardianship. Once in place you can gradually use it as needed for anything that comes up.

At that time she also took me to the bank and put me on all her accounts as joint owner, so I have total ability to spend on her behalf. It makes it very easy for me to handle all her bills. I am not sure that's the best way to do it in every case. It is the easiest and most straightforward to care for her, but also allows me to access and blow it all on gambling or whatnot. If you have a child you trust 100% like my mom does me, and the other children don't mind, it works. Not only do my siblings not mind, they're happy to let me handle all this PITB stuff. But there is probably a more legally sound way of doing that with your cash accounts, some sort of trust or something. The way we do it though, I keep meticulous records that my siblings can examine at any time should they suspect me of foul play, but technically, I am not legally required to provide that. I AM legally required to provide that to her lawyer when I exercise the PoA to access some asset not jointly owned by me.

The other down side to doing it this way is the right of survivorship. When she dies the cash is mine. Technically it won't be in her estate to divide between all her children. But I wouldn't dream of screwing my siblings out of their inheritance. I'm the executor anyway, so upon her death I will throw it in the pot and distribute accordingly. But again, if you don't have that level of trust in your child, this isn't the best way to do it. And no one can predict what behaviors can ensue upon a death even in the most loving of families so complete aboveboard record keeping is a must.

Banks and accounts and state laws differ not to mention family dynamics so YMMV. Consult your own lawyers and accountants.

I have to warn you. When she passes you will have NO access to the account. My mother did this exact same thing, EVEN checking with the bank, telling them "if something happens to me I need my son to be able to use the funds" which they claimed was ok. On top of this she did a trust naming me executor. The bank was a large bank in the Midwest.

The moment she passed, needed money to do all the things associated with burial, etc. and at that point the banks compliance officer said "no way". It was a terrible time, and we went back and forth on this. A joint account, when someone dies is no longer available to the other apparently.

It's painful to recall, though I do recall clearly that the first person I spoke with at the bank assured me it all would work as we agreed, but shortly after she said the compliance officer stopped it. She more than hinted this woman was a terrible person, that was retiring soon and everyone at the branch was going to celebrate when that happened.

In the end, unexplicably, I had to set up a bank account (I was at her home in Florida), get an EIN number, and fill out a lot of stuff, and this was weeks afterwards, and they finally cut a check for the balance in the account and sent it via DHL. Honest to god, I was needing that for her memorial, and bills, etc. and one morning found the DHL envelope on my (mothers houses) doorstep. Just laying there on the mat.

It was a nightmare. And no amount of "but we checked with you for exactly this situation, and were advised by X at the time that this was workable"

The EIN number was as I recall to do with the trust, and though I couldn't write checks on the joint account, or withdraw or even put in money into it, again they could close it and send a check for balance.

Sorry I don't recall it all, but I felt I had to warn you (and anyone else) that you have to check further, as exactly when something happens, they can and do screw you.
 
I have to warn you. When she passes you will have NO access to the account. My mother did this exact same thing, EVEN checking with the bank, telling them "if something happens to me I need my son to be able to use the funds" which they claimed was ok. On top of this she did a trust naming me executor. The bank was a large bank in the Midwest.
[painful details snipped]

I wonder why? My mom & dad had multiple joint accounts and they simply passed to my mom's control once dad died. In fact, it was probably a few days before we told them.

I was pretty sure that's what a joint account is: joint ownership. Now we did find that to change the signatures on file (to add me) we needed dad's signature or a death certificate.

John
 
The "more legal way" to do these things (not that there is a thing at all wrong with durable power of attorney) is a Guardianship. Basically, you get put under the supervision of a court. I honestly don't recommend it at all for anyone who isn't a lawyer. A court of law is no place for an honest man.
 
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I wonder why? My mom & dad had multiple joint accounts and they simply passed to my mom's control once dad died. In fact, it was probably a few days before we told them.

I was pretty sure that's what a joint account is: joint ownership. Now we did find that to change the signatures on file (to add me) we needed dad's signature or a death certificate.

John

Maybe it is different for spouses. But I swear, that was the argument I used and was told that in a joint count when one of the to die, the account is automatically frozen. I lived through it, and it really caused lot of pain and problems. If nothing else, take this as warning and ask the bank directly what happens with the account, and especially access to it. If they say I'm wrong, fine, but get it in writing!

I seem to recall the fly in the ointment was yes...it is a joint count but no longer when on of the two is dead. You can imagine why. If there was a contest of say a will the other party could empty the account, causing problems for the one contesting it.

Maybe I'm off on a tangent but thinking of joint airplane ownership (non relative or non spousal) what happens when one person dies? The other person cannot fly off and take the whole plane correct? Cannot decide that the surviving relative have nothing coming to them?
 
This thread went both simultaneously Wentworth and Probate Attorney, all at the same time. I'm so impressed, I'm not even annoyed! LOL.
 
Maybe it is different for spouses. But I swear, that was the argument I used and was told that in a joint count when one of the to die, the account is automatically frozen. I lived through it, and it really caused lot of pain and problems. If nothing else, take this as warning and ask the bank directly what happens with the account, and especially access to it. If they say I'm wrong, fine, but get it in writing!

I seem to recall the fly in the ointment was yes...it is a joint count but no longer when on of the two is dead. You can imagine why. If there was a contest of say a will the other party could empty the account, causing problems for the one contesting it.

Maybe I'm off on a tangent but thinking of joint airplane ownership (non relative or non spousal) what happens when one person dies? The other person cannot fly off and take the whole plane correct? Cannot decide that the surviving relative have nothing coming to them?

My understanding is that it depends on the exact wording of the account terms which may vary from bank to bank, or even account to account. If the account terms explicitly say joint tenants with rights of survivorship, it becomes yours immediately. It sounds like your mom's account may not have had those terms and the lady that told you it did didn't know what she was doing.

But I will definitely go back and read the terms of my mom's accounts. Thanks for the heads up. I don't need that kind of problem when she dies, like you I'll need that money for funeral expenses.
 
Consider getting yourself a signer on their checking account. Then you can use that money to take care of them. Take them down to the bank and get yourself on their card. Lots of parents children are doing it this way. In many cases, thats all you need. Sorry about your problems.

No, no, no. If you are a cosigner on your parent's account, you can become liable for their bills because you are mixing your finances with theirs. Go the PoA route.

Also, access to money after death depends on the state. In NC, survivorship means joint accounts pass directly to the survivor outside of probate. But my above warning still holds - mixing finance is a dangerous route.
 
No, no, no. If you are a cosigner on your parent's account, you can become liable for their bills because you are mixing your finances with theirs. Go the PoA route.

Also, access to money after death depends on the state. In NC, survivorship means joint accounts pass directly to the survivor outside of probate. But my above warning still holds - mixing finance is a dangerous route.
Any attorneys want to weigh in? My wife has PoA for her mother and also has her name on the checking account. Obviously I don't want our assets to be attached to the MIL's eventual bills...
 
No, no, no. If you are a cosigner on your parent's account, you can become liable for their bills because you are mixing your finances with theirs. Go the PoA route.

How are you liable for their bills by being on their checking or other cash account? I can understand being liable if you're on a credit card or loan account. But just me being joint owner on mom's checking account doesn't make me liable for say, her power bill. All the money in it might be exposed for bills, but it wasn't my money to begin with. My finances are completely separate, it's only my name on her accounts.

Also, access to money after death depends on the state. In NC, survivorship means joint accounts pass directly to the survivor outside of probate. But my above warning still holds - mixing finance is a dangerous route.

I suspected it might vary by state law too.
 
Any attorneys want to weigh in? My wife has PoA for her mother and also has her name on the checking account. Obviously I don't want our assets to be attached to the MIL's eventual bills...

I'd like an attorney to weigh in too. I don't see how your assets can be exposed for her bills, beyond the account your wife's name is on, which wasn't her money to begin with assuming your wife doesn't go depositing your and her money into it. Definitely don't do that.
 
I am not an attorney, But I was joint on my mothers account before she passed, and am now on my fathers account, both with durable power of attorney. It has been a few years since my mother passed, but I had no trouble paying for her funeral and any bills she had left. At least in Ohio the account does pass to to co-owner, no questions asked. I only had to use the power of attorney to sell her house. I was also the executor of her estate and everything went smoothly. When all was said and done I divided what was left between brothers and all with court approval. Not a problem if one plans ahead. I will do the same with Dad when the time comes. I am already taking care of his finances, insurance and bills. Fortunately he was able to help map out the plan a while ago, and now that he gets confused it is so much easier to take care of what is needed, knowing at one point he suspected this time may come. Not a pleasant conversation to have with ones parents if they do not bring it up, but the earlier the better. (Edit to add) Guardianship is something you do not want to do if at all possible to avoid it. My wife did this with her Mom, it takes a very long time and by the time you get it a lot of damage can be done. By the the time she got it her mother had passed and she switched to executor of the estate, and it was much easier to straighten things out.
 
Four words. Durable Power of Attorney. You want it yesterday. If you don't do it in time you'll be dealing with one word, Guardian. And that's a really bad word.
Durable power of attorney won't mean anything once they're dead. Given what a PITA the aircraft certification people are, I'd get that title transferred while they are still alive and competent.
 
I was told by a lawyer that I was
Durable power of attorney won't mean anything once they're dead. Given what a PITA the aircraft certification people are, I'd get that title transferred while they are still alive and competent.

Doesn't much matter once they're dead, now does it? That's assuming that the bright durable power of attorney holder has prepaid funereal expenses out of the antecedent's estate.
 
Not aircraft related but my checking account is joint with a very trustworthy friend. She has agreed to take care of my affairs when I pass. My estate will not require probate.
She will have total control.
 
Well true durable power of attorney operates while they are alive. Once they die everything that was still in their name is on hold until the estate is settled. Preplanning means you can avoid probate. Any cash or investment accounts, set up Transfer on Death. Then it's outside the estate and you get it immediately. Any real estate or I would think airplane, anything worth a lot or troublesome to transfer after a death, put in a revocable trust. That way when she or he dies, the ownership stays in the trust, it avoids probate and things can be settled smoothly in your own time.

PS: you only want to do a revocable trust if the estate is worth a certain amount. We used this calculation: when the attorney fee to set it up became less than the cost of it going into probate.
 
I'd like an attorney to weigh in too. I don't see how your assets can be exposed for her bills, beyond the account your wife's name is on, which wasn't her money to begin with assuming your wife doesn't go depositing your and her money into it. Definitely don't do that.
Well we're smart enough to not do that. There is no mingling of funds. I'm more concerned about the eventuality of nursing home care.
 
Thank you all kindly for your advice! We have found a buyer and it's just for a couple of grand is we are selling it for but I'm just wondering what's the best way to arrange a purchase if the person buying is out of state and transporting to where they are located? I have no idea where to start and be smart about it
 
Contact the local EAA chapter at the airport - here's more info and the phone number

https://www.facebook.com/eaa393/

Someone there is probably an A&P (airplane mechanic) and/or someone there may want the airplane or know someone who does. At the very least, they can help you with the sale and logistics of selling the airplane. Just tell them EAA301 suggested you contact them.

If Wentworth is the buyer, you definitely want a third-party appraisal before signing the bill of sale.
 
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My understanding is that it depends on the exact wording of the account terms which may vary from bank to bank, or even account to account. If the account terms explicitly say joint tenants with rights of survivorship, it becomes yours immediately. It sounds like your mom's account may not have had those terms and the lady that told you it did didn't know what she was doing....
Yeah, I remember something similar. Maybe the account accidentally got set up as tenants in common.

http://estate.findlaw.com/planning-...een-joint-tenants-with-survivorship-and-.html
 
Anyone with aging or ill parents needs to consult with an estate attorney. Get as much as you can out of their names sooner than later. Probate is the government's license to steal.
 
Depending on the state (I assume), a living trust may solve the probate problem.
 
It shouldn't be limited to aging or ill folks. Nobody that's got assets should have those assets in their own name. A good trust attorney is a worthy ally.
 
How are you liable for their bills by being on their checking or other cash account? I can understand being liable if you're on a credit card or loan account. But just me being joint owner on mom's checking account doesn't make me liable for say, her power bill. All the money in it might be exposed for bills, but it wasn't my money to begin with. My finances are completely separate, it's only my name on her accounts.



I suspected it might vary by state law too.
My understanding on the danger of joint accounts is that, for example, if you get sued or declare bankruptcy, the money your mom has in the joint account is exposed too. But it doesn't sound like we are talking about that much money. As you noted, there also needs to be trust between the two joint owners, especially the one whose money it was originally.

Also, if you hold an account jointly with right of survivorship, it passes to the survivor and they can use it just as they did before. At least it does in California.

But I can remember an issue when my father died that their accounts were frozen and my mother did not have access to them right away. That was a long time ago (early 1970s) in New Jersey, so laws can be different.
 
My understanding on the danger of joint accounts is that, for example, if you get sued or declare bankruptcy, the money your mom has in the joint account is exposed too. But it doesn't sound like we are talking about that much money. As you noted, there also needs to be trust between the two joint owners, especially the one whose money it was originally.

Also, if you hold an account jointly with right of survivorship, it passes to the survivor and they can use it just as they did before. At least it does in California.

But I can remember an issue when my father died that their accounts were frozen and my mother did not have access to them right away. That was a long time ago (early 1970s) in New Jersey, so laws can be different.

You're absolutely right, I didn't think about it the other way around. Mom's money is exposed to MY liability. Another good reason to have a large personal umbrella policy.
 
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