Some Airspace and ATC questions

OzPilot

OzPilot

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OzPilot
Gday..
I still have some of my Australian Airspace cobwebs clearing out of my brain as I resume flying in the US.

I'm hoping some of you could chime in on a couple of questions i have before I hit up my old CFI in the States.

1)
Class D. Cxy near Harrisburg. Trsa and vfr-adv frequencies are available. If im going to cxy, coming from the east, would the general ops be to contact approach/Trsa or CXY TWR who will manage harrisburg transition enroute? I.e. establish communications.

When TWR is closed, then Harrisburg app on to CTAF I assume?


2)
East Hamptons. What is the best VFR routing that is generally approved from Philly area? I assume 6500 to SBJ or COL VOR or do they generally vector you around to overfly? Does anyone know typical successful routing so I can save some hassle and time?

I assume that typically clears me into ISP class C as I transition the bravo? (They hand off and provide my freq change)

3)
Hudson River exclusion.. previously while working in NYC on the hudson, I've seen light aircraft and helis transition the exclusion, but the stadium tfr was active.
Isn't that a TFR bust?

What about higher on skyline route? without the whole debate on stadium tfr and ATC or briefing knowledge on active stadium tfr, were they okay because they were talking and squawking?

Cheers
 
OzPilot said:
3)
Hudson River exclusion.. previously while working in NYC on the hudson, I've seen light aircraft and helis transition the exclusion, but the stadium tfr was active.
Isn't that a TFR bust?

What about higher on skyline route? without the whole debate on stadium tfr and ATC or briefing knowledge on active stadium tfr, were they okay because they were talking and squawking?

Cheers
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I don't think they can "clear" you into the TFR, but I have heard people request it and TRACON be very nice and coordinate with KTEB tower to let people fly over NJ to go around the TFR and then rejoin the river. Don't count on that happening, but I've overheard it a few times.
 
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As for your VFR route to the Hamptons, best bet is to get on with TRACON and head towards to Colts Neck area. Ask for a VFR through the Bravo and they'll usually give it to you. Exact route and altitude will totally depend on the day's traffic patterns at EWR, LGA and JFK. NY TRACON is usually very good with granting transitions. Tell them what you want to do and they'll try to help you out, you may just need to be a bit flexible re altitudes and routing.
 
Thanks Rocket...

For Hudson, are you suggesting calling approach for FF and eventually doing Skyline Route with Bravo clearance, if the stadium TFR is active? Then ask for transition around TFR or climb or turn around?
 
OzPilot said:
2)
East Hamptons. What is the best VFR routing that is generally approved from Philly area? I assume 6500 to SBJ or COL VOR or do they generally vector you around to overfly? Does anyone know typical successful routing so I can save some hassle and time?
I assume that typically clears me into ISP class C as I transition the bravo? (They hand off and provide my freq change)
Click to expand...

Maybe I am missing something, but for VFR flight from Philly area to East Hampton, assuming weather permitting, why not just climb up to 7500' (or 9500') and overfly the Bravo?
 
RotorDude said:
Maybe I am missing something, but for VFR flight from Philly area to East Hampton, assuming weather permitting, why not just climb up to 7500' (or 9500') and overfly the Bravo?
Click to expand...

Potential cloud base at the time of flight and in a SR20 or similar it cuts it close from say DYL to get to 7500 before bravo and then the descent may be above 500fpm through the Charlie. Possible though, I've sim'd it once in xplane and with immediate climb and time acceleration, the 20 missed out making it above 7000 on a warm day. I could always do orbits to climb prior. Out of Wings LOM, no problem
 
rocketflyer84 said:
I don't think they can "clear" you into the TFR, but I have heard people request it and TRACON be very nice and coordinate with KTEB tower to let people fly over NJ to go around the TFR and then rejoin the river. Don't count on that happening, but I've overheard it a few times.
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The stadium TFR explicitly allows operation under positive ATC control. So, yes, you can be cleared in. Air traffic is a total nightmare and you probably won't want it, though. I fly over A's games occasionally; it's kinda hard to avoid because the TFR includes all four runways at OAK.
 
OzPilot said:
Potential cloud base at the time of flight and in a SR20 or similar it cuts it close from say DYL to get to 7500 before bravo and then the descent may be above 500fpm through the Charlie. Possible though, I've sim'd it once in xplane and with immediate climb and time acceleration, the 20 missed out making it above 7000 on a warm day. I could always do orbits to climb prior. Out of Wings LOM, no problem
Click to expand...

You should be able to climb to 7500 out of KDYL before hitting the NYC Bravo in most GA aircraft, but if your climb is sluggish, you can head slightly right of course to allow more climb time. Ideally and normally (and highly recommended) you should be on FF, asking for advisories on a direct routing to your destination. If you get close to the Bravo and still not on top, ask ATC to clip the top on your way up, and they'd normally allow that, or suggest a vector left or right until on top. So a non-issue on the way up. On the way down, if you need to descend at 700 fpm it's not a big deal. In fact, if ATC asks you to "expedite descent" (either on IFR or VFR FF) they want at least 1000 fpm initially, so that has to be part of your repertoire (and pax should get used to it and learn how to equalize). In general, FF and flying on top of a lowish Bravo (like NYC) should be done whenever possible and reasonable, and this example definitely fits that category.
 
Don't overthink the hamptons. Fly the south shore below the bravo. Coming from Philly you have the 1500' ring to stay below. Us NY'ers fly below the 500' ring all the time to head east because we are so close. Save your climb,save your fuel.
 
Thanks all! It's appreciated

Any notes on that Harrisburg scenario?
 
Yep, the TRSA is optional (though if you're actually going to land at MDT, you better play the game). Otherwise, it's just another terminal radar facility as far as comms are concerned.
 
The fact that a TRSA is not a class C is due to a convoluted transition from old airspace (ATAs, ARSAs, TCAs, etc) to the new lettered airspace in the early 90s where TRSAs didn't really have a place, but for what ever reason didn't go away (or become class D with radar or class C).

Functionally speaking, if you weren't looking at the chart, you wouldn't know they weren't class C airports.
 
Brad Z said:
Just treat it like a class C airport and contact approach before tower.
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I'd say that's pretty much the best thing to do. Local knowledge is always the best in these kinds of questions. Call an FBO with a flight school and pick a local CFI's brains. Like said above there are just a few TRSA's still around. When ARSA's (now renamed to Class C) were established, most TRSA's became ARSA's. There were a few that didn't meet the requirements to become ARSR's because of low traffic and passenger counts. The ironic thing is that TRSA's have more separation requirements. You do not have to establish communication to enter a TRSA. You do not have to participate in TRSA services. You can tell ATC "negative TRSA service." I wouldn't recommend it unless you you know the area and have a specific reason to not want TRSA service.
 
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