Solo student's mishap

pmanton

pmanton

Final Approach
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was that her first solo or first solo X-country? I just went around the pattern a few times, not up into the mountains. :lol:
 
rbridges said:
was that her first solo or first solo X-country? I just went around the pattern a few times, not up into the mountains. :lol:
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Sounds like it was her long solo cross country. There seems to be some other misinformation, like they said it occurred last night, but it seems to have been a day flight.

My concern is how did she end up where she did. The article states she was going in the opposite direction of where she was supposed to be going. I understand disorientation, but during my PPL training and certainly by the time I did my first cross country, the way I was taught dead reckoning, and situational awareness this type of situation should have not been possible. Furthermore, I would think certainly from my training that if the mountains were getting higher the way I was going, I would turn around and go to where I was, where the mountains were getting lower.

I think either her training was terribly lacking in the situational awareness department, or there is much more to this story than is being reported.
 
Sounds like her long (three-leg) XC. On my first XC I went somewhere I had been before and knew the route well. I am also surprised that she was not using any nav aids (VOR or GPS) as I had to do on my XC.
 
douglas393 said:
I think either her training was terribly lacking in the situational awareness department, or there is much more to this story than is being reported.
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Yeah, I think her training was lacking in more areas than just situational awareness. I know my cross countries were mostly to airports where my instructor and I had already gone. Besides, wouldn't any instructor (especially in a mountainous area) do some THOROUGH flight planning with her to an airport that was a pretty easy to navigate? Certainly would hope so...especially for a 17 year-old student in today's litigious society. That instructor's got some 'splaining to do.
 
DesertNomad said:
Sounds like her long (three-leg) XC. On my first XC I went somewhere I had been before and knew the route well. I am also surprised that she was not using any nav aids (VOR or GPS) as I had to do on my XC.
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You know guys if I'm on a cross country solo and am supposed to only use dead reckoning once I get totally screwed I'm going GPS. At that point forget failing the "test" or testing myself. In my mind it's a matter of crashing into a mountain side or surviving to fly another day.
 
Well... I'm just happy that the young lady's okay. I'll leave the rest to the NTSB to sort out.

-Rich
 
My wife had a friend who crashed on her long XC. Of course, my wife, also a student pilot at the time, asked if she had to do the XC over again.
 
flyingron said:
My wife had a friend who crashed on her long XC. Of course, my wife, also a student pilot at the time, asked if she had to do the XC over again.
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I can't remember if the 3rd leg has to be back to the original airport or not?:dunno: It was technically a landing. :eek:
She's a lucky girl, crashing in the mountains doesn't usually end well.
 
N747JB said:
I can't remember if the 3rd leg has to be back to the original airport or not?:dunno: It was technically a landing. :eek:
She's a lucky girl, crashing in the mountains doesn't usually end well.
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It doesn't. Three landings with one at least 50 miles from the start. It doesn't even have to be an airport.

But it's hard to imagine the logistics for anything besides the usual two remote airport loop. Except perhaps for weather diversions.
 
LJS1993 said:
You know guys if I'm on a cross country solo and am supposed to only use dead reckoning once I get totally screwed I'm going GPS. At that point forget failing the "test" or testing myself. In my mind it's a matter of crashing into a mountain side or surviving to fly another day.
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Prior to doing my cross country solo's I was expected to know how to use everything in the plane, including the GPS. That being said I was told not to use GPS during my cross country solo's but if I got totally loss they were to be used. You use whatever is available to you in the plane, and outside the plane to get unlost. GPS, ATC, get altitude to see if you can find familiar landmarks, fly in a direction where you know safe terrain is... If
 
I'm just glad the horse is ok!


jk, that is one lucky girl.

and I agree about using the gps. I told my cfi when I got my tablet/garmin pilot. I told him that I wouldn't cheat, but in reality, if I was lost, I'm gonna whip it out.

my gps, that is.
 
I actually got to use a portable Apollo 920 years ago (when those things were new) when I told the student that his instructor wasn't going to let him use it anyhow so he should let me use it to fly to Oshkosh.

His instructor was also Margy's instructor and had a no GPS policy for his students. Of course, the plane we were flying (N73FR) had an old clunky VOR-DME RNAV in it. I taught Margy how to look up the RNAV coords in the old AirGuide directory and program that into the Unit. Margy did that on her next lesson and the instructor had a cow. No RNAV PERIOD became the rule.
 
I do like her attitude, and kudos to the two hunters.
 
Not using a GPS in the flatlands is one thing but getting disoriented and flying up into a box canyon because you were told not to use a GPS is stupid. I don't know if she even had a GPS but if she didn't, she should have, particularly in mountainous areas where it is extremely easy to pick the wrong valley/canyon to fly into.
 
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Glad she made it out ok. DA and mountain canyons don't mix.

Why would the instructor send her thru the mountains like that solo.
 
MaroonZ28 said:
Glad she made it out ok. DA and mountain canyons don't mix.

Why would the instructor send her thru the mountains like that solo.
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From the article it seems he did not. It seems she got disoriented and instead of trying to figure out why she was not where she was supposed to be she kept on trudging foward, I guess hoping that thing would just work themselves out. Lucky she survived the crash, and even luckier that she did not die an agonizing slow death after the crash. She owes those guys who found her everything.
 
"I was screaming"

Hysteria doesn't lend itself well to flying.

Glad she's ok, very lucky girl.
 
MaroonZ28 said:
Glad she made it out ok. DA and mountain canyons don't mix.

Why would the instructor send her thru the mountains like that solo.
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I doubt the instructor sent her there. She flew off in the wrong direction.

Having said that, there are a lot of mountains in that part of Montana.
 
MAKG1 said:
I doubt the instructor sent her there. She flew off in the wrong direction.

Having said that, there are a lot of mountains in that part of Montana.
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Really interesting to watch her recount her experience on the video in the original article. She appears to have been told to use pilotage and was trying to match things with her sectional. By her account she was attempting to fly from Greybull, WY (KGEY) to Forth Smith, MT (5U7) on her last leg and had been told to "follow the water through a mountain range; Yellowtail dam" - which looks to me meant the Bighorn River north (~330 mag heading) through the Bighorn Mts, but it appears she mistook the Greybull River west (~250 mag heading) with her intended pilotage route.

Glad she had the presence of mind to maintain airspeed.

 
This little philly milked a 172 up to over 13,000 feet on a hot day,, At least that is what one article says she crashed at... Our tree line out here is 10,600 and she was clearly above tree line...

Glad she is OK... It could have been ALOT worse...:eek:
 
Jim Logajan said:
Really interesting to watch her recount her experience on the video in the original article. She appears to have been told to use pilotage and was trying to match things with her sectional. By her account she was attempting to fly from Greybull, WY (KGEY) to Forth Smith, MT (5U7) on her last leg and had been told to "follow the water through a mountain range; Yellowtail dam" - which looks to me meant the Bighorn River north (~330 mag heading) through the Bighorn Mts, but it appears she mistook the Greybull River west (~250 mag heading) with her intended pilotage route.

Glad she had the presence of mind to maintain airspeed.
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FNA.

Pilotage alone is a really stupid idea for several reasons; not the least is what happened -- an elevated risk of getting lost without realizing it. Fuel exhaustion is also possible on a long flight.

It's supposed to be pilotage and ded reckoning. With that, you know what heading to turn to.

Many cities grow up at the confluence of two rivers. Following the wrong one is a strong possibility if that's all you have.

Dang, she's lucky. And she did a really good job of not stalling, and not getting "fuzzy" with the altitude. 13,000 feet is enough to make even seasoned high altitude folks stupid.

The instructor TOLD her what route to take? That's not consistent with a SOLO cross-country.
 
N801BH said:
This little philly milked a 172 up to over 13,000 feet on a hot day,, At least that is what one article says she crashed at... Our tree line out here is 10,600 and she was clearly above tree line...

Glad she is OK... It could have been ALOT worse...:eek:
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If Jim is right about her route, she could only get that high if she aimed right at the highest peak. That's charted at 13167. The more obvious mountains you get to by following the river are more like 11500. Still not trivial at all in a 172, but that 1600 feet could make a lot of difference.
 
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MAKG1 said:
If Jim is right about her route, she could only get that high if she aimed right at the highest peak. That's charted at 13167. The more obvious mountains you get to by following the river are more like 11500. Still not trivial at all in a 172, but that 1800 feet could make a lot of difference.
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Agreed.....
 
MAKG1 said:
FNA.

Pilotage alone is a really stupid idea for several reasons; not the least is what happened -- an elevated risk of getting lost without realizing it. .....

...13,000 feet is enough to make even seasoned high altitude folks stupid.
.....
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Umm, pilotage would also say one should turn around before flying towards mountians that require a 13,000+ foot climb.

When she did the x-country DUAL with her CFI did she have to climb that high, guessing no.

I'd say there were plenty of signs she was getting into trouble, yet she just kept on going.

Would not be chomping at the bit to crucify her CFI on this. From what that article says she made some REALLY bad calls.

Her saving grace appears to be the fact she wasn't flying heavy and pure dumb luck.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Umm, pilotage would also say one should turn around before flying towards mountians that require a 13,000+ foot climb.
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I'd call that ADM as opposed to pilotage, but yes, you're right.

I wouldn't fly a 172 to that kind of altitude. Maybe an RG in perfect and not too hot weather (and with oxygen), but not in a canyon like she said she was. Those 172RGs have much higher service ceilings (16800).
 
Not a plain 172 as I can see the CS prop, yet it doesn't look like a 172XP due to the flat spring gear and big old round cowl inlet. 182 maybe?
 
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MAKG1 said:
FNA.

Pilotage alone is a really stupid idea for several reasons; not the least is what happened -- an elevated risk of getting lost without realizing it. Fuel exhaustion is also possible on a long flight.

It's supposed to be pilotage and ded reckoning. With that, you know what heading to turn to.
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I'm assuming she used primarily pilotage by how she phrased things; that may be an incorrect assumption on my part. If she was also cross-checking her course by compass and time, hard to say what caused her to not do that on the final leg. Maybe found that pilotage was working great for her and stopped cross-checking. More speculation on my part, though.

The instructor TOLD her what route to take? That's not consistent with a SOLO cross-country.
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I don't know if her instructor actually told her the route to take. A CFI is supposed to review student cross country flight plans. The way she phrased her statement in the video makes me think she got advice on what to expect or look for during that leg. Not a big deal if the CFI suggests changes to the plan.

MAKG1 said:
If Jim is right about her route, she could only get that high if she aimed right at the highest peak. That's charted at 13167. The more obvious mountains you get to by following the river are more like 11500. Still not trivial at all in a 172, but that 1600 feet could make a lot of difference.
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My speculation of her route was based on the locations named and checking against sectionals and Google maps. I was curious of her flight path because two brothers of mine had actually been hiking the Big Horn mountains 10 days ago. Turns out they had hiked well south of her planned route.
 
bnt83 said:
Not a plain 172 as I can see the CS prop, yet it doesn't look like a 172XP due to the flat spring gear and big old round cowl inlet. 182 maybe?
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No cowl flaps. Not a 182.

172s can be retrofit with CS props, and that might be a good thing in mountainous regions such as that part of Montana.
 
MAKG1 said:
No cowl flaps. Not a 182.

172s can be retrofit with CS props, and that might be a good thing in mountainous regions such as that part of Montana.
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It's not a Lycoming in the hole either.
 
bnt83 said:
Not a plain 172 as I can see the CS prop, yet it doesn't look like a 172XP due to the flat spring gear and big old round cowl inlet. 182 maybe?
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An N number search indicates a 172. There is another video on the web page linked below which indicates she did have a survival vest with her and that she did take it from the plane after the crash. I'm not sure who the woman is; could be her CFI or her mother.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/08/cessna-r172e-n516ma-accident-occurred.html
 
R172, that be the IO360 conti powered? Like the old airforce T41. I didn't know they had flat spring gear...
 
MAKG1 said:
I'd call that ADM as opposed to pilotage, but yes, you're right.

I wouldn't fly a 172 to that kind of altitude. Maybe an RG in perfect and not too hot weather (and with oxygen), but not in a canyon like she said she was. Those 172RGs have much higher service ceilings (16800).
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Indeed

I think it's a mix of the two, if she didn't have a leg on her nav log where she had to climb that high, that's a damn good indicator THAT YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!!!




If I were a betting man, I'd wager that no CFI would have a student pilot playing around that high on a x-country, regardless of type or equipment.

She was off course and I'm guessing her altimeter, nav log and view out her windshield was probably screaming it to her.
 
MAKG1 said:
If Jim is right about her route, she could only get that high if she aimed right at the highest peak. That's charted at 13167. The more obvious mountains you get to by following the river are more like 11500. Still not trivial at all in a 172, but that 1600 feet could make a lot of difference.
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Where did 13,000 ft come from? I see her saying she was somewhere around 7500-8500msl
 
Blatham489 said:
Where did 13,000 ft come from? I see her saying she was somewhere around 7500-8500msl
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Google Earth.....Francs Peak Wy. 82433..

The plane is probably at the 12,600 elevation on the eastern side of the mountain..
 
Each pilot is a mix of strengths and weaknesses. She executed a pretty slow landing in hostile terrain with almost no vertical speed, and survived.

She failed to execute a reasonable navigation plan or turnback plan.

Her instructor faces a certain 44709 ride. She may still become a pilot. She'll NEVER fly up a box canyon again.
 
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