So You Want to Be an Airline Pilot (NSFW)

[Steve]

the reality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkAKAheQIAA

and those big $$$

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KosfmCMIGhA

 

[tdager]

Too funny....and sad.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

About 90% true. Well, maybe more, depending on the airline.

 

[mikea]

It's good to know it wasn't Greg...

The "we don't get paid for every hour" rant was way too much. We know that weather delays are rare. There are a lot of professionals, entrepreneurs, management, doctors and lawyers making that kind of money who work more than 40 hour weeks including "unpaid hours." The fact that the $200 flight hour you get paid for adds to nearly $200K a year kinda covers those "unpaid hours." It takes some nerve to whine that your income, which is the top 5(?)% in the country doesn't cover unpaid hours. Clue: there are plenty of people who get minimum wage so they MAKE about that $56 he gets as a per-Diem for working 8 1/2 hours a day (they DON'T GET PAID for the 30 minutes for lunch! )

 

[steingar]

Are there still airline pilots making $200K/year? Hard to believe in this day and age, but nice to hear.

 

[mikea]

Are there still pilots making $200K/year? Hard to believe in this day and age, but nice to hear.

Dunno. That's me figuring it. I think he says they get around $150-$200 a flight hour and he says it's $500-$700 a day.

It's easily in the low to mid $100,000s.

 

[steingar]

Yeah, but that could be the 10% that's wrong. I do hear what the guy is saying. You could, through no fault of your own, wind up with someone like me for copilot.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Go to this website:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines.html

Go to any of the airline sites, take the various pay rates, multiply by the minimum guarantee for that particular airline and that will be the minimum pay per month.

 

[steingar]

Thanks for the link, Greg. Not too shabby for the majors until the next merger or bankruptcy. Sux for the regionals, especially for the FOs.

 

[hindsight2020]

Commuting, no lateral career progression, irregular employment stints, et al, are worth 200K/yr...but that's not what the median pilot compensation is anymore at mainline. It's closer to buck twenty. That's not worth it. Pass.

To each their own of course. There's plenty of people willing to do it as a secondary income job to sustain the influx of cheap labor. People who intend to make a livelihood at it will continue to get disenfranchised by the industry, people who do not intend on making a livelihood at it will continue shrugging their shoulders and asserting "it's a job, it's what you make of it, meh" and fly on their merry way. I'm staying away from the airlines as an employment outlet, it's not worth it to me. Good luck to all.

 

[RotorAndWing]

It was a great career for me, no regrets.

 

[Richard]

Are there still airline pilots making $200K/year?

Yes. They're called ex-pats and they work in China or SE Asia.

 

[JeffDG]

Pilots will be paid what the market determines.

So long as there are people willing to work for nothing->near-nothing, there will always be someone to pay them that.

 

[ClimbnSink]

That ignores the ready employee resupply factor. The barrier to entry is 6 months training and a year of work experience.

Pilots will be paid what the market determines.

So long as there are people willing to work for nothing->near-nothing, there will always be someone to pay them that.

 

[jesse]

There are plenty of worse jobs out there. There are certainly better ones. I feel bad for those that get screwed, lose their seniority, and end up without a job with no skills...But you can't say that the possibility of that occurring hasn't been known since they started their career.

 

[denverpilot]

Aviation hasn't ever made any fiscal sense, and probably never will.

In this recession we're hopefully struggling back up out of slowly, we all stand a 1-in-10 chance of not being gainfully employed anyway, so the grass isn't greener outside the airport fence.

Pay cuts, zero employer loyalty, everything based on next quarter's numbers, all this stuff happening in Aviation is the same everywhere.

An old friend once said, "Don't turn your hobby into a job, then it'll be just a job."

Another says, "Turn your passion into a career and you'll never be unhappy."

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle for all of us. If you're a happy Tigger, you'll be a Tigger. If you're a sad Eeyore, you'll still be Eeyore. No matter what job you work in.

 

[steingar]

There are plenty of worse jobs out there. There are certainly better ones. I feel bad for those that get screwed, lose their seniority, and end up without a job with no skills...But you can't say that the possibility of that occurring hasn't been known since they started their career.

You are correct, but most jobs don't combine the breathtaking financial input with the associated employment uncertainties. And most young people fail to look at the down side of things. That's the fault and the value of being young.

 

[Everskyward]

You are correct, but most jobs don't combine the breathtaking financial input with the associated employment uncertainties.

You haven't been reading the law school thread?

 

[steingar]

You haven't been reading the law school thread?

At most public universities a law degree is substantially more economical than flight training. I suspect that despite Adam's misgivings, the employment opportunities are not so bad. My wife says the students in her school do just fine.

 

[JeffDG]

That ignores the ready employee resupply factor. The barrier to entry is 6 months training and a year of work experience.

Yet that barrier to entry has done nothing to increase the cost of labour...

 

[ClimbnSink]

That is my point the barrier is very low. 6 months training at the cost of one year of private college and a years job experience. Lots of people lining up to give it a go. And you get the same pay rates as running a fryer...

Yet that barrier to entry has done nothing to increase the cost of labour...

 

[Everskyward]

There are plenty of worse jobs out there. There are certainly better ones. I feel bad for those that get screwed, lose their seniority, and end up without a job with no skills...But you can't say that the possibility of that occurring hasn't been known since they started their career.

+1. I think it also depends on your expectations. If you think you are going to end up making $200,000/year you will be disappointed. You will be lucky to making half of that at the end. But that's still a lot better than a majority of people in this country.

 

[jesse]

+1. I think it also depends on your expectations. If you think you are going to end up making $200,000/year you will be disappointed. You will be lucky to making half of that at the end. But that's still a lot better than a majority of people in this country.

Indeed. Growing up in "blue collar" land most of my life I can think of very few people that retired with a 100k income. Certainly none in my family.

 

[mikea]

At most public universities a law degree is substantially more economical than flight training. I suspect that despite Adam's misgivings, the employment opportunities are not so bad. My wife says the students in her school do just fine.

My co-worker's daughter got her law degree over a year ago from U of Michigan and ranked top of her class. There are no jobs, even in NYC.

 

[steingar]

My co-worker's daughter got her law degree over a year ago from U of Michigan and ranked top of her class. There are no jobs, even in NYC.

What do you expect, getting a degree from Michigan?

 

[mikea]

What do you expect, getting a degree from Michigan?

I dunno....Adam, Spike? It's supposed to be a top law school.

 

[steingar]

I dunno....Adam, Spike? It's supposed to be a top law school.

Obviously you haven't spent a lot of time in the upper midwest. A bit of a rivalry there.

 

[Keith Lane]

My co-worker's daughter got her law degree over a year ago from U of Michigan and ranked top of her class. There are no jobs, even in NYC.

[Slim Pickens voice] NEW YORK CITY!!!???

Shoot, tell her to come on down here to the land of Mint Julips and Sweet Tea!
Ever'body else does....
No shortage of lawyers here, but the weather's warmer (mostly)
[/Slim Pickens voice]

 

[Ghery]

So, to get this back to an earlier topic...

I noted on the website with pilot pay rates that there seem to be certain guaranteed minimum hours in a month. Do you typically work more than that? And, looking at the pay scales. Assume you are an FO and are promoted to pilot. Are you now at year 1 on the pilot scale, or is that total seniority? Not that I'm looking to change jobs (at age 58 it's a bit late for that), but I'm just curious.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I noted on the website with pilot pay rates that there seem to be certain guaranteed minimum hours in a month. Do you typically work more than that?

Typically, yes, up to the contract maximum.

And, looking at the pay scales. Assume you are an FO and are promoted to pilot. Are you now at year 1 on the pilot scale, or is that total seniority?

It is time with the company, not time in grade, so to say. So if you upgrade in your 5th year, you .would enter the table at year 5

 

[MSPAviator]

A mainline pilot in his late 50s once told me that I should be a dentist instead of a pilot. He had a buddy that was a dentist. Made enough $ to have a nice house, wife and kids in want of nothing, and a Cherokee in the hangar. He went on to explain that unlike many in the medical field, a dentist can set his own hours and not have to be on call all the time. Being a dentist at the top of your earning power was better than being a narrowbody captain at the majors.

So I said yeah, but you have to spend your career looking at peoples' teeth and dealing with their bad breath.

I've always wanted to be a pilot but I couldn't afford the training till my late 20s. I make regional captain pay at my desk job, but I can't imagine doing what I do for another 40 years. I may never make a living flying, but I'm still chipping away at my ratings...

 

[taters]

I've always wanted to be a pilot but I couldn't afford the training till my late 20s. I make regional captain pay at my desk job, but I can't imagine doing what I do for another 40 years. I may never make a living flying, but I'm still chipping away at my ratings...

Keep chopping wood,lots of ways to make a living flying and I do mean a living.

 

[Everskyward]

Keep chopping wood,lots of ways to make a living flying and I do mean a living.

I agree with Clay that there are lots of way to make a living flying besides being an airline pilot. To me the main disadvantage of the airline route is that you are a little cog in a big wheel and you are married to your company. The only way to advance financially is to stay at the same place and hope they don't go out of business. I know that some airlines have various types in their fleet and you could eventually gain some variety that way, but some airlines don't. How does the thought of spending 30 years flying the same airplane back and forth between a limited number of destinations strike people? It never seemed appealing to me. Even when people kept telling me about all the money I could make...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Indeed. Growing up in "blue collar" land most of my life I can think of very few people that retired with a 100k income. Certainly none in my family.

Look at the analysis I did a couple months ago, though, of the pilot vs. the truck driver - In lifetime earnings, it took nearly their entire career (up to the last 2 years before retirement IIRC) before the pilot caught up to the truck driver - And having that $100K just prior to retirement isn't gonna do you much good.

 

[jesse]

Look at the analysis I did a couple months ago, though, of the pilot vs. the truck driver - In lifetime earnings, it took nearly their entire career (up to the last 2 years before retirement IIRC) before the pilot caught up to the truck driver - And having that $100K just prior to retirement isn't gonna do you much good.

Actually, from the neck of the woods I grew up in, a truck driving job was a GOOD job. And from a financial perspective they're still doing better then most americans by far.

Where is the analysis? There are a lot of variables. A lot of truck drivers that don't make jack and some airline pilots that do fairly well pretty quickly.

The big difference is that a truck driver can leave one company and go to another without being completely financially devastated until like a senior airline pilot.

 

[Everskyward]

And having that $100K just prior to retirement isn't gonna do you much good.

We're not talking about having only $100k saved prior to retirement. We are talking about making $100k in your last or most profitable year.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Actually, from the neck of the woods I grew up in, a truck driving job was a GOOD job. And from a financial perspective they're still doing better then most americans by far.

This is true - I certainly can't complain about where it put me. I've managed to become a pilot, put about 880 hours in my logbook so far (most of which I paid for, some of which was free, and a teensy little bit I got paid for), take a cumulative 28 months "off" with no job in the last 8 years... But it isn't without its downsides (which is why I don't do it any more, and a large part of why I had all that time off and didn't jump right into another driving job).

Where is the analysis? There are a lot of variables. A lot of truck drivers that don't make jack and some airline pilots that do fairly well pretty quickly.

Here: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=629205#post629205

FWIW, my primary flight instructor was a sharp cookie who had a father that was an airline pilot to guide him along and he did everything about as well as you could possibly expect. He just got hired by a major, 7 years after leaving the CFI gig, about 3 years faster than my example.

The big difference is that a truck driver can leave one company and go to another without being completely financially devastated until like a senior airline pilot.

Kind of. Most trucking companies have a dual-axis pay scale, one axis of which is actual experience, the other axis of which is seniority with the company. Also, many other seniority-based benefits like vacation start over at the bottom. I know of only one company that gives vacation based on experience rather than seniority (they advertise that fact heavily in the process of trying to recruit experienced drivers).

We're not talking about having only $100k saved prior to retirement. We are talking about making $100k in your last or most profitable year.

I know - My point was that making $100K in your last year is mostly meaningless, it's lifetime earnings that matter. Again, see the analysis I linked to above - The pilot takes 25 years to catch up to the trucker in lifetime earnings, and that's if everything goes right, and the trucker never invests anything.

 

[Everskyward]

Here: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=629205#post629205

I looked at that and you are only counting 25 years. Even if someone is a slower starter at both careers and we count from age 30 that only takes us up to age 55. Also, you have CFIs making $10/hour. I think I made more than that, as an employee, 25 years ago. When I was free-lancing I charged $20-$25 hour back then. The CFIs I know now charge about $40/hour. That said, I don't think you can plot out anyone's career on a spreadsheet and have it come true with any accuracy. I know you love numbers though.

My point was that making $100K in your last year is mostly meaningless, it's lifetime earnings that matter.

It's not that meaningless if you have been slowly working up to it. I suppose there is the odd case when someone doubles their income in their last year.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Also, you have CFIs making $10/hour. I think I made more than that, as an employee, 25 years ago. When I was free-lancing I charged $20-$25 hour back then. The CFIs I know now charge about $40/hour.

For your average airline-bound young CFI with no meaningful flight experience working at an FBO, you're paying $40/hour for them, but they're only getting a small fraction of that - I based the $10 on the starting wage of an FBO that had their pay rates posted on their web site (they do not any more, I guess that kind of looks bad!)

Of course, the airline pilots were making more 25 years ago too.

I do love numbers - And while this is certainly not a perfect analysis, it's a fairly plausible comparison, IMHO. There's certainly going to be situations in both cases where some people make significantly more or less. But, I didn't pull the numbers out of my butt either - It's based on data from airlinepilotcentral (for the pilots) and my own experiences.

 

[jesse]

I've known instructors that get paid by their FBO anywhere from $10 to $25 or so. That is flying hours - not sitting at the airport hours.