So how do you read that back anyway? ("Change to my frequency")

Brad Z said:
You've been away from the Catholic Church for a few years. The response as of 2008 is now "...and with your spirit" although I still can't stop saying "...and also with you"
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Yep, last time would've been in the mid 80's, back in Australia.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I submit that doing the frequency changes as described in the AIM IS the most efficient use of the controllers precious time.
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4-2-3(d)(2) Would seem to indicate that my phraseology and usage is what is the AIM recommends?

"At times, a controller/specialist may be working a sector with multiple frequency assignments. In order to eliminate unnecessary verbiage and to free the controller/specialist for higher priority transmissions, the controller/specialist may request the pilot "(Identification), change to my frequency 123.4." This phrase should alert the pilot that the controller/specialist is only changing frequencies, not controller/specialist, and that initial callup phraseology may be abbreviated.

Example -
"United Two Twenty - Two on one two three point four"

There isn't other guidance in the AIM that I'm aware of on the requirement of reading back a frequency when instructed to change. If you don't get the controller on the new frequency you are going to go back and contact them anyway.
 
Larry in TN said:
I believe that is addressed in the AIM Communications sections. Don't have time to look for it at the moment.
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It is. See AIM 4-3-2.d.2.

Reporting as though it was a sector frequency change is a bit excessive (if you really care). The phase, "change to my frequency" means you are going to be dealing with the same controller, just on a different frequency. So the call on the new frequency is short and simple.

“Skyhawk 34X on one two three point four” is all that's needed.
 
bikert said:
When you're told "change to my frequency"... Should you change to the new frequency and THEN read it back on the new frequency, or do you read it back and then change?
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Controller: "switch to my freq..."
Me: "Roger"

On new freq-
Me: "345 is up"
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Controller: "switch to my freq..."
Me: "Roger"

On new freq-
Me: "345 is up"
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I actually like that and in a real world, busy, and putting multiple aircraft on GCA single approach freqs, a lot of times you don't get a read back.

"Hawk 55 change to my frequency 313.6."

"Wilco Hawk 55...Hawk 55s up."
 
Timbeck2 said:
When they say that, they could be monitoring more than one sector. OR it could be that something went wrong with the radio and he's using a back up freq. Lots of reasons why they would say that.
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Or you flew out of the coverage area of one ground radio site into another, and it's still all the same sector. (Mountainous areas, this happens frequently.)

I'm of the camp that it goes like this:

ATC: "Skylane Seven Niner Mike, change to my frequency 123.45."
Me: "123.45, Seven Niner Mike."
[Brief pause to see if he was working other traffic on the other frequency...]
Me: "Skylane Seven Niner Mike, up 123.45."
ATC: "Skylane Seven Niner Mike, Roger."

Often what prompted the switch is that they noticed they need to tell you something or give you the next altimeter setting, or [insert things triggered by noticing where you are on the scope here]... so that last line will often be:

ATC: "Skylane Seven Niner Mike, Roger. Denver Altimeter Tree Zero Zero One. And I'll probably lose you on radar for the next 10 miles, monitor this frequency, should see you again near XYZ."
Me: "Three Zero Zero One, understand on the radar, Seven Niner Mike."

Other common mixes are things like staying ahead of what's going on. The frequency change may be to get ready to hand you off to a tower for landing... and if you're far enough ahead of the game...

Me: "Skylane Seven Ninber Mike, up 123.45 and we have ATIS Whiskey and the airport in sight."
ATC: "Skylane Seven Niner Mike, roger and thanks."

Or, that one goes even more efficiently if you're VFR and it's a quiet scope...

ATC: "Skylane Seven Niner Mike, thanks, no traffic observed between you and XYZ, contact the tower now, 118.X"

Whenever possible I try to think ahead to what they're going to need to do their part... if you can pass the "next" piece of information in the normal chain of comm, it just speeds up everyone's life.
 
James_Dean said:
I always make the change and then announce that I've made the switch. I skip the step stating I got the instruction as it seems redundant.
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I used to do this, too, thinking that the extra acknowledgement was a waste of air time.

Then I spent a couple of hours plugged in with couple of Center controllers. Great fun and a great opportunity to ask questions. I asked them about this practice. Wrong, they said. When you don't acknowledge receipt of the instruction we have to stop and wait. Just acknowledge briefly, then you can take your time coming up on the new frequency.

I suppose there is an argument to omit the acknowledgement when you already know the new freq and have it dialed in for instant access, but we didn't talk about that. They were very clear, though, that they didn't consider the acknowledgement to be a waste of air time.
 
I can see that. I always enter the freq on the touch 750 and switch with one push. I can usually be up on the next freq in under two seconds. I'm fine either, but really don't think you should be doing the whole full callsign and altitude spiel.


airdale said:
I used to do this, too, thinking that the extra acknowledgement was a waste of air time.

Then I spent a couple of hours plugged in with couple of Center controllers. Great fun and a great opportunity to ask questions. I asked them about this practice. Wrong, they said. When you don't acknowledge receipt of the instruction we have to stop and wait. Just acknowledge briefly, then you can take your time coming up on the new frequency.

I suppose there is an argument to omit the acknowledgement when you already know the new freq and have it dialed in for instant access, but we didn't talk about that. They were very clear, though, that they didn't consider the acknowledgement to be a waste of air time.
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Not that big of a deal no matter how one does it. Certainly ain't worth arguing back and forth about it. :rolleyes:
 
I say nothing on the original freq. On the new freq I just say "xxx123" on xx.xx
 
I usually just say the frequency "125.25 wait a few seconds for a possible correction then swap, make sure I'm not stepping on anyone then "61x on 125.25"

Saying the frequency isn't even necessary when you swap. They are really smart people. They know what frequency they are receiving on!

The aim is a great resource for a good procedure but it isn't law. As long as you swap to the right frequency and the controller knows, your good. There really isn't a right or wrong way.

It's fun to hear how other people read back little things like this.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Couldn't you folks come up with an example other than 123.45? That freq is assigned to manufacturers for flight test operations and also some transoceanic sectors.

Bob Gardner
 
Larry in TN said:
The relevant AIM paragraph has been posted. Why are you all still arguing?
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Actually not, though I don't know why.

AIM 4-2-3 (d) 1 (preceding the paragraph that has been posted) addresses the question directly:

d. Acknowledgement of Frequency Changes.
1. When advised by ATC to change frequencies, acknowledge the instruction. If you select the new frequency without an acknowledgement, the controller’s workload is increased because there is no way of knowing whether you received the instruction or have had radio communications failure.

TheGolfPilot said:
... Saying the frequency isn't even necessary when you swap. They are really smart people. They know what frequency they are receiving on! ...
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Agreed on them being smart. From my two hours at a Center position, however, my recollection is that the active reception frequency is indicated by lights on the console that are not directly in the controller's field of view. By the time he looks for a light the transmission may have ended. I know it was that way on the old FSS consoles; I"m just not sure about Center consoles.

Anyway, the AIM 4-2-3 (d) 1 instruction is consistent with what I was told by the Center guys. If, as you say, the AIM is a great reference for good procedure, why would you then ignore it?
 
airdale said:
d. Acknowledgement of Frequency Changes.
1. When advised by ATC to change frequencies, acknowledge the instruction. If you select the new frequency without an acknowledgement, the controller’s workload is increased because there is no way of knowing whether you received the instruction or have had radio communications failure.
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That's an incorrect reference. Read the whole thing - The controller's workload is NOT increased on a "change to my frequency" because they DO know you received the instruction as soon as you check in on the new freq! So, if you do can do the check-in/readback at the same time, controller workload is not increased and frequency time is used more efficiently.

On other check-ins, you absolutely need to read it back prior to the switch, but that's not what we're talking about here.
 
I have always acknowledged the instruction, made the switch and then advised when on the new frequency. Was taught to do this back when we were still training on pterodactyls.:D
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's an incorrect reference. Read the whole thing ...
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Jeez. "When advised by ATC to change frequencies, acknowledge the instruction." seems pretty straightforward to me. A simple declarative sentence with no ambiguity. Is there somewhere that the AIM adds "unless the pilot feels that acknowledgement is unnecessary." ?? Citation, please.
:popcorn:
 
airdale said:
Jeez. "When advised by ATC to change frequencies, acknowledge the instruction." seems pretty straightforward to me. A simple declarative sentence with no ambiguity. Is there somewhere that the AIM adds "unless the pilot feels that acknowledgement is unnecessary." ?? Citation, please.
:popcorn:
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You need to read more than one sentence - Both of the AIM reference you posted, and my previous post. :rolleyes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You need to read more than one sentence - Both of the AIM reference you posted, and my previous post. :rolleyes:
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Lol!!! No, no you don't... Read my post. I don't care about the AIM. my method is time tested over many years. It works fine.
 
airdale said:
Jeez. "When advised by ATC to change frequencies, acknowledge the instruction." seems pretty straightforward to me. A simple declarative sentence with no ambiguity. Is there somewhere that the AIM adds "unless the pilot feels that acknowledgement is unnecessary." ?? Citation, please.
:popcorn:
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This.
My routine:
ATC: "Smasher 78C, come up on my frequency 127.35."
Me: "Twenty-seven thirty-five, 78C."
Me on 127.35: "78C on twenty-seven thirty-five" (note: no decimal point, no leading/redundant "one")
ATC: "Roger."

Short, sweet, prevents misunderstandings, and has been tested over the last few decades.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You need to read more than one sentence - Both of the AIM reference you posted, and my previous post. :rolleyes:
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I've done that. Your position is more or less the same thinking that I used until I was told at Center that it is wrong. The AIM says the same thing that the controllers told me.

You don't want to do what the AIM says, fine. You don't want to do what the Center controllers advised me to do, fine. You want to tell controllers you are "with" them, fine I really don't care. This is a minor and silly point. Some of us are just trying to answer the OP's question with what is recommended procedure. Probably he has left by now anyway.
 
airdale said:
I've done that. Your position is more or less the same thinking that I used until I was told at Center that it is wrong. The AIM says the same thing that the controllers told me.

You don't want to do what the AIM says, fine. You don't want to do what the Center controllers advised me to do, fine. You want to tell controllers you are "with" them, fine I really don't care. This is a minor and silly point. Some of us are just trying to answer the OP's question with what is recommended procedure. Probably he has left by now anyway.
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My point is that an ACTUAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER posted the CORRECT AIM REFERENCE, and that the justification for the "acknowledge the instruction" sentence you're referring to makes it clear that it's for a different situation (new frequency WITH A NEW CONTROLLER), and that is not what we are discussing here. Were we discussing that scenario, I would agree 100%.

Now - Going back to your original message, I think we can find some source of agreement:

airdale said:
I used to do this, too, thinking that the extra acknowledgement was a waste of air time.

Then I spent a couple of hours plugged in with couple of Center controllers. Great fun and a great opportunity to ask questions. I asked them about this practice. Wrong, they said. When you don't acknowledge receipt of the instruction we have to stop and wait. Just acknowledge briefly, then you can take your time coming up on the new frequency.

I suppose there is an argument to omit the acknowledgement when you already know the new freq and have it dialed in for instant access, but we didn't talk about that.
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If I can't have the new frequency dialed in by the time they finish giving me the instruction, I will absolutely acknowledge first because I don't want them to have to wait for me. But, if I already have it in or if I can dial it in while they're reading it to me, there's no reason to acknowledge before hitting the flip-flop and checking back in. Put a different way, if you can check in on the new frequency as fast as you can reply on the old frequency, there's no reason to acknowledge on the old frequency. Otherwise, yes, you should acknowledge on the old freq, dial in the new one, and then check back on.
 
I've seen it done many ways, my personal way of doing it is switch to the new frequency then just say "291JD is on (insert frequency)". works great every time, and doesn't require a read back then another check in, which sometimes sounds awkward. However I don't think anyone could say you are wrong for reading it back first then checking in on the new frequency. Just do whatever is safe and better for you.
 
Palmpilot said:
It takes me five or ten seconds to set the new frequency in, so I at least acknowledge with my call sign before doing that.
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I can have the new frequently punched in as the controller says the numbers. I can respond on the new frequency as fast as saying something on the old frequency. So I guess do what your equipment allows for.
 
James_Dean said:
There is a controller on this thread telling you to do what I outlined. I see your point if you're turning dials, but with flip/flop so common it seems moot. Personal preference there, but I still submit that you taking the controller time to verify the freq when you have a flip flop is not the most efficient use of their precious time.
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You're right, unless you botch the frequency. If you hear and tune correctly your way is the quickest. However if you hear it wrong, switch without any readback, then have to call back and ask again now you're taking more time than a quick readback and them correcting you before switching.

It may not be the most efficient when everything goes right, but it is more efficient when things don't go perfectly.
 
airdale said:
Actually not, though I don't know why.

AIM 4-2-3 (d) 1 (preceding the paragraph that has been posted) addresses the question directly:

d. Acknowledgement of Frequency Changes.
1. When advised by ATC to change frequencies, acknowledge the instruction. If you select the new frequency without an acknowledgement, the controller’s workload is increased because there is no way of knowing whether you received the instruction or have had radio communications failure.
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Not true. When you call on the new frequency the controller will know you received the instruction, even when you don't acknowledge on the old frequency.
 
I normally switch to the new frequency and check in with "n1234 on 1XX.xx"

I only do this if i have a standby frequency on the comm or a #2 com for frequency changes. That way if I tune wrong I can go back to the original frequency.
 
bobmrg said:
Couldn't you folks come up with an example other than 123.45? That freq is assigned to manufacturers for flight test operations and also some transoceanic sectors.

Bob Gardner
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It's the easiest one to type that's actually in the air band ;)
 
RotorDude said:
This.
My routine:
ATC: "Smasher 78C, come up on my frequency 127.35."
Me: "Twenty-seven thirty-five, 78C."
Me on 127.35: "78C on twenty-seven thirty-five" (note: no decimal point, no leading/redundant "one")
ATC: "Roger."

Short, sweet, prevents misunderstandings, and has been tested over the last few decades.
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This. Figure it gives the controller the opportunity to correct me when I'm inevitably wrong. Can't go wrong acknowledging instructions, even if it is just to switch over to another freq your controller is handling.

Also, all of you hating on the "with you" calls. Shut up. Some of us have bad habits that we're trying to break. Certainly not me... I don't know what you're talking about... stop looking at me like that.
 
Never really minded "with you" personally. I prefer using "level" or if it's a freq change, "up."

My pet peeve is "aand approach..." :mad:
 
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I do use the "and..." construct in some cases, and I think it serves a purpose. It tells ATC I am not a newcomer on the frequency with the very first word, and it overcomes the slight mangling that sometimes occurs at beginning of a transmission (otherwise I would just hold the key a smidgen longer before talking). I typically use it as a logical conjunction to a previous point, so it immediately conveys a continuation of some kind.
I would want to hear experienced controllers' opinion on this point.
 
RotorDude said:
I do use the "and..." construct in some cases, and I think it serves a purpose. It tells ATC I am not a newcomer on the frequency with the very first word, and it overcomes the slight mangling that sometimes occurs at beginning of a transmission (otherwise I would just hold the key a smidgen longer before talking). I typically use it as a logical conjunction to a previous point, so it immediately conveys a continuation of some kind.
I would want to hear experienced controllers' opinion on this point.
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I just think of it like having a conversation. When you talk to others, do you say "And hey how was your day." Doesn't really make sense is just an unecessary word that people use. The slight mangling of the transmission is an easy fix. Make sure you push the button down before you start talking that way your transmission isn't clipped. You don't need to add extra words.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Saying the frequency isn't even necessary when you swap. They are really smart people. They know what frequency they are receiving on!
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I think the recommendation to say "on [FREQ]" is because the controller is the same and, at least at the moment, he is listening to both.

This was (probably still is) a very common occurrence at KAPA on a weekend over the 20 years I was based there. It's an airport with two parallel N-S runways and one E-W one. Once things got busy, they opened up a second frequency for the parallel runway on the west side of the airport. In sequence, there might be 8 airplanes being switched. That's a lot of airplanes to try to keep track of which receiving frequency is which until everyone checks in on the new one.
 
jordane93 said:
I just think of it like having a conversation. When you talk to others, do you say "And hey how was your day." Doesn't really make sense is just an unecessary word that people use. The slight mangling of the transmission is an easy fix. Make sure you push the button down before you start talking that way your transmission isn't clipped. You don't need to add extra words.
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I agree that it's a conversation, and my goal is to reduce the bandwidth and workload on ATC to a bare minimum while getting my point across. Over many years, I think have it optimized, though I am always willing to listen to inputs from others.
As far as the initial clip/mangling, as I mentioned in my post, I can hold the key down a smidgen longer for that, as you suggest (and I most often do), but with "And Boston, ..." I gain some extras, like letting him/her know I am not a newcomer, so they don't need to immediately get the pen and strain to hear a new callsign. They also know that it's something related to a previous issue, so again their mind is prepared for that.
This is why I asked for an opinion from an experience controller, to hear their perspective on it.
 
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